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  1. #1

    I suspect High/Nightborne consider themselves Kaldorei but do BElves feel highborne?

    Bear with me, as it is something I have come to realize, here are my thoughts, a bit scattered, but here goes.

    This is looking from an Elven perspective how it would seem to the elves..not to humans (which is the perspective the wow story is told from) or to us who all come from different countries with different cultures and worldviews.
    Night
    • Several things make me feel this is the case although it's not explicitly stated as far as I know. Although you never once hear the highborne or nightborne refer to themselves as kaldorei, I suspect they definitely feel themselves the children of the stars, and high/nightborne being an elite facet of it. Even when Elisande makes her speech to the armies against her, kaldorei dishonour the name, and quel'dorei lower themselves. Its like only the Shal'dorei are the true Kaldorei and understand what Quel'dorei truly is
    • I suspect, the non highborne kaldorei are just referred to as lowborne, and simply kaldorei because they have no elite or noble status so no tag. The nightborne are a special society of highborne. This is very clear in Broken Isles. Outside val'sharah all the elven ruins are and Suramar are highborne. Checking Archaeology, the music, the lore, even comments from Farondis and the Moonguard and Thalyssra all referring to themselves as "kin", "brothers", "our people" and the legacy of "our queen" Azshara - puts them an the highborne boat.
    • Nightborne society is a very specialized version of it and the ne that has properly preserved the Suramar Kaldorei empire culture over the long millennia. (seeing Azsuna has ghosts who are not alive, and the Shen'dralar capital has been in near-ruins for a long time now.
    • But, they all have the Star culture (moon/stars/celestial) .. which is the defining aspect of a Kaldorei. Kaldorei I suspect is both a calling and the umbrella race, out of which night elves, nightborne and highborne seem to be facets of. The highborne, and the nightborne that developed since, seem to be elite tags or versions, but they, especially the nightborne (cos we see this loads in Suramar) seem very much the Children of the Stars, very moon/star/celestial as well as been Shal and Quel dorei. This more a suspicion/question that makes a lot of sense to me.


    Blood Elf
    So, we come to my favourite race. The blood elves. This is more confusing and less clear cut as the ones above, but it begs the question, Do high elves and blood elves still see themselves as Highborne? I know they don't see themselves as children of the stars, there is nothing star/moon/celestial, there is nothing kaldorei in them, it's all the Light, the sun etc... however, they are also proud of their roots, and Sylvannas sings the lament of the highborne song, the blood elf in Menaar is interested in her highborne kin. Are there any indications that the blood elves or high elves still consider themselves highborne although not kaldorei based any longer? I know the night elves of the alliance refer to them as highborne - but is it them just being old fashioned? or do elves think of themelves not quite in the same way as we do.

    The names don't seem to necessarily bear much relevance to the race. As a high elf you can be highborne and high elf. Quel'dorei is both highborne (in Darnassian/ancient elven) and high elf in Thalassian. Although the high elf, naga and shen'drelar all are very different races, they all are highborne (well according to the night elves, high elf and shen'dralar are highborne, some of the naga consider themselves highborne too despite their different race form)

    Or do we leave highborne only to the night elf related groups, and not bring the blood/high elves into it? Would I be correct in also saying the blood elves are sin'dorei highborne? or do they not think themselves as such. You have highborne amongst the naga, amongst the night elves (still the original) all nightborne are highborne a very specific group of them with racial deviation, and the high/blood elves are highborne descendants.

    So do we refer to the high/blood elves as highborne or highborne descendants? If I role play a night elf, do I refer to high/blood elves highborne, but if I roleplay a blood elf , we are highborne descendants, not highborne? Help me out pls.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Eureka?
    Hmm..I think I've figured it out... this may be clearer: for Blood/high elves - are they more like European americans? Proud of their European roots, but they're all American now. like the Americans, the high elves were highborne who left their original continent and moved away finding a new life elsewhere, while they built it as they know how and carried on many customs, they formed a new society they believed fairer and freer than the original one they left behind ..i.e. the original highborne and kaldorei cultures (both the decadent arcane one and the ridiculous no magic one under malfurion).

    So they are no longer highborne (i.e. no longer European) they are now high/blood elf (Thalassian) but remember their roots/high calling. [Obviously this is not the same for the highborne/nightborne on Kalimdor/Broken Isles - as they're still pretty much the same, as are the nature orientated night elves who haven't really changed much since they changed after the sundering - so they're pretty much still children of the stars in their heads - just children of the stars who believe in nature (Malfurion's lot), Elune (Tyrande's lot) the arcane (the highborne/nightborne) or the nightwell (nightborne)
    Last edited by EnigmAddict; 2017-04-25 at 12:15 PM. Reason: typos formatting

  2. #2
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    b...blood elves are still kaldoeri... they still are highborne... they just... got green eyes <_< >_>


    i mean, welcome to lore since forever?
    other then the fel there is 10000000% no difference between a blood elf and a highborne.

  3. #3
    Highborn isnt a race. Its just tag.

    Everyone was Kaldorei in time of WotA. Some of them were refered as highborn (Quel'dorei In Zin Azshari) But still they were Kaldorei.

    After Wota those Quel'dorei left. Their goal was to find places of considerable ley power for them to build their new homeland. After landing on the Lordaeron continent, they moved inland and formed a settlement in the Tirisfal Glades. Later moved to Quelthalas. Around this time, they had become completely severed from the life-giving energy of the Well of Eternity. This meant that they were vulnerable to the elements and had not received immortality from Nozdormu and the World Tree. Over the generations they had shrunk in height, their skin had become a peach hue similar to most dwarves and humans, and their hair golden. To sate their hunger for great magical power, the high elves created the sacred Sunwell here. It became the source of their power as the Well of Eternity had been in Kalimdor.

    In this time you can no longer refer Quel'dorei as Night elfs. (Kaldorei) but as separate race of Elfs

    After 3rd war 90% of those who survived renamed themself to Sin'dorei in honor of their people who were killed during the siege of Quel'Thalas by the Scourge.

    You cant just say Kaldorei = Quel'dorei = Sin'dorei. There is 10 000 years of evolution.

    And to the Nightborne. They are Kaldorei who locked themself in suramar The source of their power is the Nightwell. Over the millennia that past, the energies of the Nightwell evolved them into Nightborne night elves. (shal'dorei)

    Dont know how naga feels this. But they are naga and not Elfs.
    (If you feel you are a monkey that doesnt makes you a monkey)
    Last edited by Allora; 2017-04-25 at 12:42 PM.

  4. #4
    @Allora , @EnigmAddict

    I think Kaldorei is both a race and a culture. The night elves refer to themsleves as kaldorei, night elf is the tag the humans gave them ( you would never originally call yourself a day human now would you?!) . We as players just associate them with one type of race because that's how character creation puts it. you can play night elf - and you get that model.

    BUt, in lore, it's not that simple, night elf for starters is just simply a night based elf - why did the humans call them night elves? cos theoy already had elves they were familiar with, and these ones were night based. By extension, your average human would call all night based elves, night elves, only the more educated would split them up into their own sub-groups. Kaldorei, Quel'dorei, Shal'dorei.

    From the perspective of the elves, it's totally different. OP is right we never see the highborne nor nightborne refer to themselves as Kaldorei, yet the very things that made them all kaldorei still remains in the both the shal'dorei and quel'dorei night elven based groups. So, in some respects kaldorei is not only specifically the night elves of Kalimdor. Nor is it only specifically that race,

    Put simply, shal'dorei are merely a sub-race or sub-group of kaldorei, slightly altered race like dark irons are to bronzebeards, but still under the kaldorei bracket. Like the highborne, they always refer to themselves as nightborne or shal'dorei - becuase it's their elite badge, and also their racial group.

    now shal'dorei aren't kaldorei, but Kaldorei based/derived.

    Shal'dorei is both a race and a group, that race is part of the original Kaldorei identity, but not part of the current one. As the night elves continue as a big group themselves, they will retain the kaldorei tag, while we would always refer to the Suramar night elves as Nightborne or Shal'dorei a different kaldorei based group after the original night elven tradition.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Obviously this is not the same for the highborne/nightborne on Kalimdor/Broken Isles - as they're still pretty much the same, as are the nature orientated night elves who haven't really changed much since they changed after the sundering - so they're pretty much still children of the stars in their heads - just children of the stars who believe in nature (Malfurion's lot), Elune (Tyrande's lot) the arcane (the highborne/nightborne) or the nightwell (nightborne)
    Their's is the legacy of the stars, the legacy of the arcane - this is what kaldorei truly means, and the night elves have lost that, only the shal'dorei truly embody that now. So Shal'dorei is the new name for ancient Kaldorei. Kaldorei no longer refers to the arcane star legacy, but the vigil natured elves. Whiles to them, the shal'dorei are a part of their history, one they left behind, ways they left behind. And to the shal'dorei, the kaldorei have lost their way.

    now the Kaldorei retain the original form, while the shal'dorei are a modified version of it. Now we dont know if this would stay... this all depends if nightborne become playable, if they don't we might see them revert to night elves, just like Satyrs can be changed back to night elves, and I suspect so can naga with the right spell, though what would be interesting is if Azshara attempts the spells and gets it nearly almost right, but not quite spawning a new sub-race of sea-elves or mer-elves or naga elves, having some indication of their aquatic life, like maybe legs shift to fins when in the water, coral for hair and skin with nice looking patches of coloured scale - i'm thinking pinks, purples, greens and blues, when in the water, the lower abdomen fish part would ofc be the colour of the scales. And voila - new sub-race.

    We can only speculate, and it's interesting to share your thoughts, i've often wondered myself and I'm in agreement with you here. The nightborne have certainly not stopped being children of the stars, just also become shal'dorei (because of the time under the dome) i think the new appearance bears no relation to the name, they called themselves shal'dorei or nightborne when they still looked like night elves. I don't think many people get that. It's like blood elves called themselves sin'dorei when they still looked exactly like high elves, before even the eye colours changed to fel green.

    the physical transformation has almost nothing to do with it, but it makes them another race, another night elf based race, night elf related ofc, but another race. How they would view themselves would continue exactly as it always has. And they emerge to find out that they are the only ones to have stayed true to the original Kaldorei calling. The shal'dorei are the true kaldorei.. but I'm glad they are not making a thing out of it like they did with the horde and the true horde. The vain elves like their distinctions and classifications. A Nightborne is both a tag and a race.

  5. #5
    In my own headcannon, Highborne are kaldorei, but a caste with some associated physical and cultural traits. Something akin to the Brahmin of the Indian Caste System.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
    In my own headcannon, Highborne are kaldorei, but a caste with some associated physical and cultural traits. Something akin to the Brahmin of the Indian Caste System.
    yeah, agreed. And it's like nightborne are a section of highborne or the most purest version of highborne now their own race. Prior to legion, if we were ever going to make highborne a sub-race, the nightborne is exactly what they'd be. The nightborne really ave nothing outside being highborne, they are highboren with a unique look and thes pecial circumstance of being in Suramar, just like the Shen'dralar's special circumstance of Dire Maul. Ofc the nightborne are grander, cos the city looks better and is pristincne, and we have a nice detailed sotry to this unique group of highborne, the only ones who haven't changd from before..

    But it's largely headcanon. Based on what we see and you can draw certain conclusions. All shal'dorei stuff is highborne stuff, if you do the tailoring quests, enchanting, suramar, azsuna and pay attention to the order hall quests, you are shown. The distinction between highborne and kaldorei is made quite clear hwen dealing with the shal'dorei silk. Trades, andskills thought lost ot the sundering are found alive and thriving in the shal'dorei.

    Shal'dorei culture isn't anything new or unique from highborne, it is the core of naient highborne that is rebranded, since only teh shal'dorei practice any of this (we don't see it in the shen'dralar although we infer ther'es must be very similar - but they were'nt in a shield, the nightborne were.) Within that shield time stood still, and they continued on whereas the shen'dralar schanged a litlte, the Malfurion/Tyrande led night elves changed a lot, the high elves developed etc.

    Blizzard really have made highborne it's own separate thing in the nightborne. It's really highborne upgraded.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2017-04-25 at 03:25 PM.

  7. #7
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I know they don't see themselves as children of the stars, there is nothing star/moon/celestial, there is nothing kaldorei in them, it's all the Light, the sun etc...
    Silvermoon. The mooncrystals used to power Ban'dinoriel.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  8. #8
    Highborne was a social caste. They were Kaldories and typical snobby elites. The nightborne are Kaldories who hided under the bulble in WotA. Not all of them were highborne.

  9. #9
    I would like Blizz to go more in-depth with the whole pre-WoTA caste system. Obviously the Highborne were the ruling caste, but then you have powerful non-Highborne that had relatively high ranks in society like Lord Ravencrest. I also would assume that if it was a caste system there would probably be more than two castes.

  10. #10
    @All of you - what do you think of my analysis of the blood elves? like most americans of Euro or Afro descent, blood elves are of highborne descent, but not actually highborne, and they don't consider themselves highborne even though they are proud of their heritage? "like the Americans, the high elves were highborne who left their original continent and moved away finding a new life elsewhere, while they built it as they know how and carried on many customs, they formed a new society they believed fairer and freer than the original one they left behind ..i.e. the original highborne and newer kaldorei cultures "

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
    I would like Blizz to go more in-depth with the whole pre-WoTA caste system. Obviously the Highborne were the ruling caste, but then you have powerful non-Highborne that had relatively high ranks in society like Lord Ravencrest. I also would assume that if it was a caste system there would probably be more than two castes.
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    @All of you - what do you think of my analysis of the blood elves? like most americans of Euro or Afro descent, blood elves are of highborne descent, but not actually highborne, and they don't consider themselves highborne even though they are proud of their heritage? "like the Americans, the high elves were highborne who left their original continent and moved away finding a new life elsewhere, while they built it as they know how and carried on many customs, they formed a new society they believed fairer and freer than the original one they left behind ..i.e. the original highborne and newer kaldorei cultures "
    Just a note to the two of you, I think time also plays a factor that we don't often figure in, especially with the enormous periods we are dealing with. The same culture and identity actually changes names based on what period of time you're looking at it. And the appearance of some of its peoples also.

    Prior to the sundering, the culture was known as Kaldorei culture, Kaldorei civilization. However to us (i.e. humans /orcs) post sundering, the Night elven survivors led by Malfurion after the amazing victory, started a new culture known as the vigil culture but this is what is now known as kaldorei culture only (to humans/orcs who don't know the pre-sundering kaldorei or what came before - remmeber all they've met is the night elves who call themselves kaldorei, so to them, their culture is the kaldorei culture rather than to a night elf, would be the vigil culture or post-vigil culture. Meanwhile kaldorei civilziation pre sundering is now referred to as highborne civilization when talked about - and we see Khadgar make that distinction, in several places he refers to the things you witness, like the Nighthold Suramar and Azsuna as Highborne. This may confuse some people to thinking highborne culture was always different from kaldorei culture, no, it wasn't, if you're speaking of it after the sundering, the pre-sundering kaldorei culture to a human is the highborne culture. To a night elf it's pre-sundering Kaldorei culture although now they find it so distasteful or are embarassed by it, I wouldn't be suprirsed if they also call it highborne culture, since they always take cues from the humans ofc (they don't really but as the game defines things from the human perspective, this is what happens.

    When the nightborne come into the picture, highborne civilization by us (humans and orcs) is now referred to the Shen'dralar civilization and the culture 10,000 years ago pre-sundering now in ruins (DIre Maul, Azsuna, most of North and western kalimdor and Broken Isle ruins) ie. when the culture is referring to 10k years ago and a ruined state it is referred to as highborne (even though it was Kaldorei civilization) But with the nightbonre who are in current times, or the current day version of that culture it is referred to as Shal'dorei culture. We simply call ancient kaldorei culture Shal'dorei (nightborne) culture when referring to it today. We don't say of the nightborne "ancient kaldorei culture)" or "ancient arcane-evolved night elves of the empire era" - no we simply say nightborne or shal'dorei cos that's the name it goes by now.

    Sha'dorei culture is Kaldorei culture, but the Kaldorei culture before the sundering that continued on in Suramar in its unique way, unlike even the shen'dralar. So Shal'dorei culture is Kaldorei of the pre-sudnering, Shal'dorei is the name now for pre-sundering based and orientated kaldorei in the unique city of Suramar that were in a bubble fed by the nightwell. A unique highborne-led night elven group, for such unique circumstances they are given a unique name, afterall they were the only survivors of the legion invasion for 10k years (they thought)

    So yes, I fully agree that Shal'dorei do think of themselves as Kaldorei in everything but the name, for them, Kaldorei are the ancestors, they are what kaldorei became and for them the distinction is just pre legion invasion and post legion invasion where all that remained of the Kaldorei was Suramar city and its inhabitants.. similar to how the high elves renamed themselves blood elves in honour of hteir fallen foes, the Kaldorei in Suramar city, adopted the name Shal'dorei to fit their new situation, the last of the kaldorei race (remember they didn't know anyone else survived till this expansion).

    It's convenient for them now, because they look different and are the only kaldorei group that have kept the Kaldorei ways, highborne and the lowborne kaldorei still exist, but they've become so ... different to the shal'dorei, the kaldorei in particular, the highborne while of the same culture, have lowered themselves in the eyes of their former selves having to associate with lowbornes and other lesser races, something no night elf would have done, no highborne would have done prior to the sundering (we know this is true, because Malfurion calling all the other races to help agianst the legion was almost as scandalous as the very legion themselves.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Silvermoon. The mooncrystals used to power Ban'dinoriel.
    indeed and they use nature treants to tend their forests and gardens, doesn't make them a nature culture anymore than using mooncrystals to power Ban'dinoriel makes them a star/moon culture - they moved on from that, rejecting everything about their former lives, incl culture, (both highborne arcane one of the empire and kaldorei), the exclusive nature practice of Malfurion, they rejected Elune, even their nocturnal nature. They built a new arcane society they intended to be supercede the former one and be more glorious than it was. one where all magic would be practiced freely and they wouldn't make the mistakes of the past that led to the Burning Legion.

  12. #12
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    The Blood Elves see themselves as the direct inheritors of the ancient Night Elven Highborne: the continuation of the model of civilization exemplified by the ancient Night Elven enclaves like Farondale, Suramar, and Zin-Azshari. They refer to themselves many times as Highborne, Elven nobility, and keepers of the Arcane legacy of their ancient Night Elven ancestors. Most High and Blood Elves feel that the Kaldorei Night Elves are a technological or social step back for Elvenkind - embracing a rougher, simpler lifestyle and cultural aesthetic that they find primitive or barbaric. Though both the Quel'dorei and Kaldorei were united in rejecting the worst excesses of the ancient Night Elven civilization (as personified by Queen Azshara herself), the former group felt that the rejection of that ideal didn't require the wholesale redefinition of their culture and that there was a place for moderate and regulated practice of the Arcane. The Kaldorei, raw from the wounds of the War of the Ancients and many of the Highborne's complete betrayal of the world to the Legion, felt that their civilization needed to be upended and started anew - with a stronger focus on their connection to the world and an abject refusal of the Arcane in their society.

    Dath'remar Sunstrider tried to reorganize the High Elves under new precepts to better set themselves apart from their forebearers (and no doubt to assuage his own sense of wounded pride from the enforced exile from their previous homes). He adopted a crimson/gold architectural aesthetic which was set firmly against the blue/purple/silver tones of Night Elven art and architecture, as well as the pre-eminence of fire and sun motifs in contrast to the Night Elves' reverence of nature and moonlight. Legacies of the Kaldorei persist among the Quel'dorei, of course - many of their ancient artifacts still bear distinctively Kaldorei names and connotations, and versions of Kaldorei beliefs, elements of language, and even cultural mores and folkways persist.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2017-04-25 at 09:47 PM.
    "This is what I am called. I'm called Glad-of-War, Grim, Raider, and Third. I am One-Eyed. I am also called Highest, and True-Guesser. I am Grimnir, and the Hooded One. I am All-Father, Gondlir Wand-Bearer. I have as many names as there are winds, as many titles as there are ways to die. My ravens are Huginn and Muninn: Thought and Memory. My wolves are Freki and Geri. My horse is the gallows."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Blood Elves see themselves as the direct inheritors of the ancient Night Elven Highborne: the continuation of the model of civilization exemplified by the ancient Night Elven enclaves like Farondale, Suramar, and Zin-Azshari. They refer to themselves many times as Highborne, Elven nobility, and keepers of the Arcane legacy of their ancient Night Elven ancestors. Most High and Blood Elves feel that the Kaldorei Night Elves are a technological or social step back for Elvenkind - embracing a rougher, simpler lifestyle and cultural aesthetic that they find primitive or barbaric. Though both the Quel'dorei and Kaldorei were united in rejecting the worst excesses of the ancient Night Elven civilization (as personified by Queen Azshara herself), the former group felt that the rejection of that ideal didn't require the wholesale redefinition of their culture and that there was a place for moderate and regulated practice of the Arcane. The Kaldorei, raw from the wounds of the War of the Ancients and many of the Highborne's complete betrayal of the world to the Legion, felt that their civilization needed to be upended and started anew - with a stronger focus on their connection to the world and an abject refusal of the Arcane in their society.

    Dath'remar Sunstrider tried to reorganize the High Elves under new precepts to better set themselves apart from their forebearers (and no doubt to assuage his own sense of wounded pride from the enforced exile from their previous homes). He adopted a crimson/gold architectural aesthetic which was set firmly against the blue/purple/silver tones of Night Elven art and architecture, as well as the pre-eminence of fire and sun motifs in contrast to the Night Elves' reverence of nature and moonlight. Legacies of the Kaldorei persist among the Quel'dorei, of course - many of their ancient artifacts still bear distinctively Kaldorei names and connotations, and versions of Kaldorei beliefs, elements of language, and even cultural mores and folkways persist.
    That's beautifully said, did you write that or are you quoting somewhere?

    So before the nightborne were introduced, modern elven nobility were all white and the lower class were all dark skinned ... I just realized that the elven story was very racist until the nightborne, now you also get dark skinned elven nobility.

  14. #14
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    That's beautifully said, did you write that or are you quoting somewhere?

    So before the nightborne were introduced, modern elven nobility were all white and the lower class were all dark skinned ... I just realized that the elven story was very racist until the nightborne, now you also get dark skinned elven nobility.
    I wrote it, it's the distillation of things I've been writing about for a long time on these forums.

    I don't know about the light-skinned/dark-skinned class dichotomy, though. The Highborne were originally aristocrats defined by their closeness to the Queen - they were her favored people because their skill in the Arcane and, likely, the degree of sycophancy they had when they fawned over Azshara. The ancient Night Elves' sense of class was defined by acumen in the magical arts - with "lesser" roles such as rangers, druids, and priestesses being grouped into a lower social class (though Azshara was smart enough to keep even the leaders of those roles close to her, such as Kur'talos Ravencrest and Varo'then). Once Azshara was deposed at the close of the War of the Ancients Malfurion and Tyrande (two leaders from among those lesser social roles) took to the task of reordering their society and the remnant of Azshara's nobles, the Highborne, were exiled for their refusal to give up the Arcane arts.

    Skin color, as it were, was the same for the Highborne as it was the lower classes in Azshara's empire - with tones ranging from violets to blues to greens. When the Highborne left Kalimdor and arrived on the lands that would become the Eastern Kingdoms they gradually lost their Night Elven skin tone, slowly becoming shades of white, peach, and tan. This was likely due to leaving the aura of the nascent World Tree and not being bound to it like the Kaldorei were - and it was not restored by the creation and exposure to the new Sunwell.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2017-04-26 at 03:54 AM.
    "This is what I am called. I'm called Glad-of-War, Grim, Raider, and Third. I am One-Eyed. I am also called Highest, and True-Guesser. I am Grimnir, and the Hooded One. I am All-Father, Gondlir Wand-Bearer. I have as many names as there are winds, as many titles as there are ways to die. My ravens are Huginn and Muninn: Thought and Memory. My wolves are Freki and Geri. My horse is the gallows."

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Bear with me, as it is something I have come to realize, here are my thoughts, a bit scattered, but here goes.

    This is looking from an Elven perspective how it would seem to the elves..not to humans (which is the perspective the wow story is told from) or to us who all come from different countries with different cultures and worldviews.
    Night
    • Several things make me feel this is the case although it's not explicitly stated as far as I know. Although you never once hear the highborne or nightborne refer to themselves as kaldorei, I suspect they definitely feel themselves the children of the stars, and high/nightborne being an elite facet of it. Even when Elisande makes her speech to the armies against her, kaldorei dishonour the name, and quel'dorei lower themselves. Its like only the Shal'dorei are the true Kaldorei and understand what Quel'dorei truly is
    • I suspect, the non highborne kaldorei are just referred to as lowborne, and simply kaldorei because they have no elite or noble status so no tag. The nightborne are a special society of highborne. This is very clear in Broken Isles. Outside val'sharah all the elven ruins are and Suramar are highborne. Checking Archaeology, the music, the lore, even comments from Farondis and the Moonguard and Thalyssra all referring to themselves as "kin", "brothers", "our people" and the legacy of "our queen" Azshara - puts them an the highborne boat.
    • Nightborne society is a very specialized version of it and the ne that has properly preserved the Suramar Kaldorei empire culture over the long millennia. (seeing Azsuna has ghosts who are not alive, and the Shen'dralar capital has been in near-ruins for a long time now.
    • But, they all have the Star culture (moon/stars/celestial) .. which is the defining aspect of a Kaldorei. Kaldorei I suspect is both a calling and the umbrella race, out of which night elves, nightborne and highborne seem to be facets of. The highborne, and the nightborne that developed since, seem to be elite tags or versions, but they, especially the nightborne (cos we see this loads in Suramar) seem very much the Children of the Stars, very moon/star/celestial as well as been Shal and Quel dorei. This more a suspicion/question that makes a lot of sense to me.


    Blood Elf
    So, we come to my favourite race. The blood elves. This is more confusing and less clear cut as the ones above, but it begs the question, Do high elves and blood elves still see themselves as Highborne? I know they don't see themselves as children of the stars, there is nothing star/moon/celestial, there is nothing kaldorei in them, it's all the Light, the sun etc... however, they are also proud of their roots, and Sylvannas sings the lament of the highborne song, the blood elf in Menaar is interested in her highborne kin. Are there any indications that the blood elves or high elves still consider themselves highborne although not kaldorei based any longer? I know the night elves of the alliance refer to them as highborne - but is it them just being old fashioned? or do elves think of themelves not quite in the same way as we do.

    The names don't seem to necessarily bear much relevance to the race. As a high elf you can be highborne and high elf. Quel'dorei is both highborne (in Darnassian/ancient elven) and high elf in Thalassian. Although the high elf, naga and shen'drelar all are very different races, they all are highborne (well according to the night elves, high elf and shen'dralar are highborne, some of the naga consider themselves highborne too despite their different race form)

    Or do we leave highborne only to the night elf related groups, and not bring the blood/high elves into it? Would I be correct in also saying the blood elves are sin'dorei highborne? or do they not think themselves as such. You have highborne amongst the naga, amongst the night elves (still the original) all nightborne are highborne a very specific group of them with racial deviation, and the high/blood elves are highborne descendants.

    So do we refer to the high/blood elves as highborne or highborne descendants? If I role play a night elf, do I refer to high/blood elves highborne, but if I roleplay a blood elf , we are highborne descendants, not highborne? Help me out pls.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Eureka?
    Hmm..I think I've figured it out... this may be clearer: for Blood/high elves - are they more like European americans? Proud of their European roots, but they're all American now. like the Americans, the high elves were highborne who left their original continent and moved away finding a new life elsewhere, while they built it as they know how and carried on many customs, they formed a new society they believed fairer and freer than the original one they left behind ..i.e. the original highborne and kaldorei cultures (both the decadent arcane one and the ridiculous no magic one under malfurion).

    So they are no longer highborne (i.e. no longer European) they are now high/blood elf (Thalassian) but remember their roots/high calling. [Obviously this is not the same for the highborne/nightborne on Kalimdor/Broken Isles - as they're still pretty much the same, as are the nature orientated night elves who haven't really changed much since they changed after the sundering - so they're pretty much still children of the stars in their heads - just children of the stars who believe in nature (Malfurion's lot), Elune (Tyrande's lot) the arcane (the highborne/nightborne) or the nightwell (nightborne)
    Blood elf in addition to referring to the blood of the fallen also makes reference to the noble blood of highborne. That tells us the Kael'thas himself in the blood of the Highborne novel
    The blood elves are very proud of their past all their magic society is oriented by that pride. Tae'thelan and the reliquary seek and study artifacts and knowledge of the era of the old empire, Tae'thelan is the greatest expert in all that refers to the highborne.

    The shaldorei consider themselves shaldorei, they do not have very good opinion of the kaldorei by their culture so directed to the nature

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I wrote it, it's the distillation of things I've been writing about for a long time on these forums.

    I don't know about the light-skinned/dark-skinned class dichotomy, though. The Highborne were originally aristocrats defined by their closeness to the Queen - they were her favored people because their skill in the Arcane and, likely, the degree of sycophancy they had when they fawned over Azshara. The ancient Night Elves' sense of class was defined by acumen in the magical arts - with "lesser" roles such as rangers, druids, and priestesses being grouped into a lower social class (though Azshara was smart enough to keep even the leaders of those roles close to her, such as Kur'talos Ravencrest and Varo'then). Once Azshara was deposed at the close of the War of the Ancients Malfurion and Tyrande (two leaders from among those lesser social roles) took to the task of reordering their society and the remnant of Azshara's nobles, the Highborne, were exiled for their refusal to give up the Arcane arts.

    Skin color, as it were, was the same for the Highborne as it was the lower classes in Azshara's empire - with tones ranging from violets to blues to greens. When the Highborne left Kalimdor and arrived on the lands that would become the Eastern Kingdoms they gradually lost their Night Elven skin tone, slowly becoming shades of white, peach, and tan. This was likely due to leaving the aura of the nascent World Tree and not being bound to it like the Kaldorei were - and it was not restored by the creation and exposure to the new Sunwell.
    I've always felt the Blood elves think of themselves as highborne even though they don't go by that name, I made a topic about it 5 years ago roughly, the usual suspects didn't bite ofc, , I'm glad at least 1 person agrees on me there.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I wrote it, it's the distillation of things I've been writing about for a long time on these forums.

    I don't know about the light-skinned/dark-skinned class dichotomy, though. The Highborne were originally aristocrats defined by their closeness to the Queen - they were her favored people because their skill in the Arcane and, likely, the degree of sycophancy they had when they fawned over Azshara. The ancient Night Elves' sense of class was defined by acumen in the magical arts - with "lesser" roles such as rangers, druids, and priestesses being grouped into a lower social class (though Azshara was smart enough to keep even the leaders of those roles close to her, such as Kur'talos Ravencrest and Varo'then). Once Azshara was deposed at the close of the War of the Ancients Malfurion and Tyrande (two leaders from among those lesser social roles) took to the task of reordering their society and the remnant of Azshara's nobles, the Highborne, were exiled for their refusal to give up the Arcane arts.

    Skin color, as it were, was the same for the Highborne as it was the lower classes in Azshara's empire - with tones ranging from violets to blues to greens. When the Highborne left Kalimdor and arrived on the lands that would become the Eastern Kingdoms they gradually lost their Night Elven skin tone, slowly becoming shades of white, peach, and tan. This was likely due to leaving the aura of the nascent World Tree and not being bound to it like the Kaldorei were - and it was not restored by the creation and exposure to the new Sunwell.
    There was no druid in the night elf society before Malfurion though which mean there was no such a thing as druid social class in the society and Varo'then was a highborne if I remember right. There were only the highborne,the normal noble,the priestess and the plebs. Malfurion and Illidan belonged to the plebs. Tyrande joined the priestess.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2017-04-26 at 12:42 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    There was no druid in the night elf society before Malfurion though which mean there was no such a thing as druid social class in the society and Varo'then was a highborne. There were only the highborne,the normal noble,the priestess and the plebs. Malfurion and Illidan belonged to the plebs. Tyrande joined the priestess.
    There were ancient Night Elves who felt a closeness for and a kinship to nature, I'm using the "Druid" class to define the people like Malfurion who made their homes in the wilds as opposed to the urban centers of the ancient Night Elven empire. An example of these be akin to Valewalker Farodin, a "proto-Druid" who actually predates Malfurion, but is not a full recognized Druid in the way the class is now understood. These were also the people who became the first true Druids under Malfurion and Cenarius once the path had been laid out.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2017-04-26 at 12:44 PM.
    "This is what I am called. I'm called Glad-of-War, Grim, Raider, and Third. I am One-Eyed. I am also called Highest, and True-Guesser. I am Grimnir, and the Hooded One. I am All-Father, Gondlir Wand-Bearer. I have as many names as there are winds, as many titles as there are ways to die. My ravens are Huginn and Muninn: Thought and Memory. My wolves are Freki and Geri. My horse is the gallows."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    There were ancient Night Elves who felt a closeness for and a kinship to nature, I'm using the "Druid" class to define the people like Malfurion who made their homes in the wilds as opposed to the urban centers of the ancient Night Elven empire. An example of these be akin to Valewalker Farodin, a "proto-Druid" who actually predates Malfurion, but is not a full recognized Druid in the way the class is now understood. These were also the people who became the first true Druids under Malfurion and Cenarius once the path had been laid out.
    I dunno if those people would constitute a social class. People like Farodin by the time of WotA were really rare. His small order was likely fading away by the time of WotA.

    They were just people who lived outside of urban areas who we dont even have confirmation that they actively practiced even a rudimentary or crude form of nature magic. They were just the plebs in general. The people who became the first druids were moonguards and likely the plebs as well.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2017-04-26 at 01:10 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Blood elf in addition to referring to the blood of the fallen also makes reference to the noble blood of highborne. That tells us the Kael'thas himself in the blood of the Highborne novel
    The blood elves are very proud of their past all their magic society is oriented by that pride. Tae'thelan and the reliquary seek and study artifacts and knowledge of the era of the old empire, Tae'thelan is the greatest expert in all that refers to the highborne.

    The shaldorei consider themselves shaldorei, they do not have very good opinion of the kaldorei by their culture so directed to the nature
    The shaldorei opnion depends on who you're interacting with. Elisande's lot, in typical highborne fashion believe anyone not as exalted as them are beneath them. REgarding the elves, they have no bad thing to say tot he sin'dorei except disappointment at their choice to oppose them. The others have done very un-kaldorei things, the current kaldorei have abandoened their heritage and legacy preferring to skulk around in forests (according to her), the quel'dorei are polluting themselves by mingling with lesser races (i.e. the high elf/human relationship), teh shen'dralar aren't really referenced here as they are not present.

    But Thalyssra and the sane nightborne .. i.e. most of the city you find a fiercely proud and respectful of their Kaldorei heritage. Remember the shal'dorei were the Kaldorei or last of the Kaldorei they thought, until Gul'dan came knocking and the shield went down, so to them, their memory of Kaldorei was themselves and the entire empire in its glory that perished with the invasion - they revere everything about their past, look at how longingly Occuleth mentions the prayers to Elune that rose from the temple of Falanaar. The memeories and reverence to the ancestors in Tel'anor, the utter surprise at seeing the Kaldorei again whether its Farodin but especially Tyrande and her group.. seeing how archaic they have become.

    It is my feeling that the shal'dorei whou nlike the blood elves/high elves, revere everything about themselves and who they once were, not just the arcane legacy, they have the same night/nocturnal nature, star/moon fascination and loved all the good things of the empire, which was actually pretty amazing in every respect till the Queen called the legion.. remember hte night elf empire was Elven perfection at its greatest eight, that over time through arrogance fell to the decadence that resulted in the summoning of the legion - the decadent behaviour comes at the same time the legion is first contacted, my feeling is that this attitude actually started from the Queen even though she was liked and all the blame was put on the highborne.

    Despite that, I feel that the shal'dorei's reaction to the night elves would be very different from the blood elves because of how they deeply revere their Kaldorei past and those that gave their lives to save them. i.e. the night elves who have now returned, remember Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan all come from Suramar, as well as Maiev, Jarod, .. Ravencrests army launched from his fotress in Val'sharah, a province of Suramar, and many from the city and surrounding regions formed the main rebelliong aginst the queen. It was Suramar v Zin'Azshari .. the shal'dorei have a world to remain in both because of the sacrifice of their ancestors (which until recently were what the kaldorei were) and the nightwell saving them.

    For this reason, I agrewith an excellent post that was made on the beta forums or official forusms not sure if it was US or EU,that put forward a very interesting theory/prediction that i don't think anyone will anticipate - admiration for the kaldorei. Which is a refreshing change from the scorn and disdain that has come from the only highborne related bunch we knew (till Catalcysm/legion) the high/blood elves. The theory suggests that shal'dorei victors of Suramar will greatly respect the kaldorei because of the past and actually be touched by their lowly state. They'd feel admiration for how their ancestors/kin achieved the impossible,not once but twice without magic. A victory that saved the shal'dorei and also put them to shame for hiding with all their amazing magic, not joining the fight, and having these ones to protect the world twice.

    They would feel they failed their kin because of the abuse of the arcane perpetuated by highborne kind, and will admire them for having achieved as much as they did without them and also feel that it is their sacred duty to restore their kin's total confidence in their arcane birthright.

    the success of the modenr kaldorei would inspire some shal'dorei to a simpler less arcane intwined existence, as some would pick up the path of the druid and the priest especially with the Cathedral cleared and the sisterhood back,and after al Elune's wonders shown. However they would be keen to show themselves both brave after the victory over Elisande and the legion, and lso prove to their skeptical kin that they should fully embrace the arcane. Every night elf embracing the arcane would be a victory to the shal'dorei who would be far more encouraged by it than the Shen'dralar who have been training some. But the shal'dorei would be after removing all the prejudiced stigma from the kaldorei, whereas the kaldorei would generally be ensuring that the balance the nightborne have found is always maintained. The kaldorei will feel that for the salvaiton and preservation of their kin, the shal'dorei, they must bring diversity and restore nature affinity, to ensure the shal'dorei never lose balance again.

    Unlike what happened with the high elves, the kaldorei would embrace the shal'dorei and vice versa each fo therir own reasons, to preserve themsevles and ensure elven kind never perpetuates the kind of horror Lady Azshara fell to. This could anger the high/blood elves more, because they'd be like "oh so now you are willing to listen to them, but when we put forward the same arguements you shunned and exiled us", to which the night elf response would be the balance teh shald'doeri have achieved through the arcan'dor and the proof of repsonsibility that they have demonstrated by both putting their lives on the line for their city and fighting the legion. To the blood elves they might respond, are reunion 10,000 years later was made in good faith to your leader KAel'thas Sunstrider, but instead you joined the horde and later the burning legion, treated with hositlity and murdered our convoy sent to you..

    you get hte picture, would be lovely to see these sort of discussions, the blood elves/high elves peeved at what they might interpret as a double standarrd by the night elves, the night elves obviously have changed, the arcane is back, and in the nightborne they have seen balance restored, something which they had a hand in personally so are certain of its effect,plus the iwillingness to let go fo the nightwell is quite the move that would warm the high priestess.. theo nly thing that would be better would be an official invitation to return to her city of birth and the HQ of the order of Elune once our business is finished.

    I really love the idea of this, I so agree that we've had no one really ever thank or even admire the night elves for their role against the legion, just disdain and distrust, from high/blood elves and humans etc.. so would be nice to see one of their own group appreiciate them.

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