Rogue changes in 10.2

[Unforgivenn]

ROGUE
Developer’s note: In Guardians of the Dream we are updating all 4 Rogue talent trees to bring them up to current standards. A sweeping pass was needed to make significant adjustments to address notable concerns, like: moving the first gate from row 3 to row 4 to match all other classes; improving pathing and increasing interconnectedness on every tree; removing 3-point nodes; and reducing the percentage of minor DPS talents taken in the Class tree to make room for more flavorful and robust utility options. We also wanted to use the opportunity where so many things are changing to rework or redesign some talents that needed the update, and also just to make some new talents to experience and (hopefully) enjoy. Let us know what you think!
Many changes have been made to Class talent positions and connections.
Sap is now a baseline ability.
Shiv damage increased by 20%.
Shiv now costs 30 Energy (was 20) and has a 30 second cooldown (was 25 seconds).
New Talent: Featherfoot (Passive) – Sprint increases movement speed by an additional 30%, and duration increased by 4 seconds.
New Talent: Superior Mixture (Passive) – Crippling Poison reduced movement speed by an additional 10%.
New Talent: Graceful Guile (Passive) – Feint has 1 additional charge.
New Talent: Stillshroud (Passive) – Shroud of Concealment has 50% reduced cooldown.
Vigor’s location has changed and is now a 2-point talent, increasing max Energy by 50/100 and increasing Energy regeneration by 8/15%.
Deadly Precision is now a 1-point talent. Per point value has not changed.
Nightstalker’s location has changed and now increases damage while Stealth is active by 8/15% (was 4/8%).
Reverberation now increases Echoing Reprimand damage by 100% (was 75%).
Deadened Nerves now reduces physical damage taken by 5% (was 3%).
Echoing Reprimand now charges a combo point from 3/4/5 (was 2/3/4).
Marked for Death has been adjusted:
Cooldown adjusted to 40 seconds for all specializations (was 30 seconds for Assassination and Subtlety, 60 seconds for Outlaw).
Grants full combo points (was 5).
Now increases the damage your finishing moves deal to the target by 15%.
Lasts 15 seconds (was 60 seconds) and resets cooldown if the target dies during the effect.
Assassination
Developers’ note: Assassination is known for having strong single target damage, but has two areas of concern we hope to address in Guardians of the Dream. First and foremost, their AoE has been notably weak and left them far behind the pack for M+ and certain raid encounter types. Secondly, Assassination’s damage performance does not improve at a similar rate compared to most specs when players improve their play and coordination to take on bigger challenges, like when moving from Heroic to Mythic level raiding. We hope the changes here will raise the floor of Assassination’s AoE, especially before reaching and needing capstone talents to do so, and that it will feel like a distinct Assassination-like way to deliver AoE damage and not just copy/paste of another spec’s gameplay. As for the second concern, it’s very important to us that we not completely rewrite the book and threaten to undermine what makes Assassination appealing for so many players from both fantasy and gameplay perspectives. That said, the changes aimed at addressing this issue are more subtle. We intend to create more room for players tackling high-end content to use their resources and encounter knowledge to get improved performance outcomes, while not increasing the number of hoops players at all levels need to jump through to get results similar to the past.
Many changes have been made to Assassination talent positions and connections.
Shadowstep is now a baseline ability.
New Talent: Sudden Demise (Passive) – Your Bleed damage increased by 10%. Targets below 35% health instantly bleed out and take fatal damage when the remaining Bleed damage you would deal to them exceeds 200% of their remaining health.
New Talent: Caustic Spatter (Passive) – Using Mutilate on a target afflicted by your Rupture and Lethal Poison applies Caustic Spatter for 10 seconds. Caustic Spatter causes 30% of Poison damage dealt to splash onto other nearby enemies, reduced beyond 5 targets. Limit 1.
New Talent: Path of Blood (Passive) – Increases max Energy by 100.
Envenom duration reduced by 1 second.
Improved Shiv now increases Nature damage by 30% (was 20%).
Venomous Wounds’ effect now restores 8 Energy (was 7).
Elaborate Planning is now a 1-point talent, and its effect now increases damage by 5% (was 4/8%).
Improved Poisons is now a 1-point talent. Per point value has not changed.
Bloody Mess is now a 1-point talent. Per point value has not changed.
Thrown Precision has been adjusted:
No longer increases Fan of Knives damage by 15%.
Now increases Fan of Knives critical strike chance by 10% (was 5%).
Now causes Fan of Knives critical strikes to always apply your weapon poisons.
Seal Fate has changed:
Moved from Class talent tree to Assassination.
Now a 1-point talent.
Effect now always triggers from critical strikes (was 50/100% chance).
Internal Bleeding’s effect is now also applied by Rupture.
Crimson Tempest has been adjusted:
No longer has an instant damage component.
Now has an initial damage over time tick on application.
Damage per tick reduced by 25%.
Duration increased by 2 seconds.
Now deals bonus damage when multiple enemies are afflicted, increased by 20% per target, up to 100%.
Now deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets (was 8).
Lightweight Shiv now increases Shiv damage by 100% in addition to its previous effect.
Exsanguinate has been redesigned:
Active version: 1 minute cooldown. Garrote, Rupture, and Crimson Tempest consume 10 Energy to duplicate 100% of any damage dealt. Lasts 10 seconds.
Passive version: While above 100 Energy your Garrote, Rupture, and Crimson Tempest consume 8 Energy to duplicate 40% of any damage dealt.
Developers’ note: There are two updated versions of Exsanguinate available to test on PTR, located on the talent tree as a choice node with one being active and one being passive. Based on testing, feedback, and possible iteration, we will likely keep one to continue on for patch release and discard the other.
Flying Daggers now increases Fan of Knives damage by 15%, in addition to its previous effects.
Venom Rush’s effect now refunds 6 Energy (was 7).
Vicious Venoms has been adjusted:
Bonus damage effect increased to 35/70% (was 10/20%).
Now increases Ambush and Mutilate energy costs by 5/10.
Poison Bomb now affects an area within 8 yards (was 6 yards).
Zoldyck Recipe is now a 2-point talent. Per point values have not changed.
Dashing Scoundrel effect now generates 1/2 Energy (was 1 Energy at both ranks).
Scent of Blood is now a 2-point talent, and its effect now increases Agility by 1.5/3% (was 1/2/3%).
Arterial Precision’s effect now increases Bleed damage by 30% (was 20%).
Dragon-Tempered Blades now causes your weapon poisons to apply 30% less frequently, in addition to its previous effect.
Indiscriminate Carnage has been redesigned – Garrote and Rupture apply to 2 additional nearby enemies when used from Stealth and for 3 seconds after breaking Stealth. Passive Talent.
Outlaw
Developers’ note: Outlaw’s talent tree has produced some fun gameplay so far in Dragonflight, but it has significant issues with rigidity, lack of pathing options, high tension between early tree DPS and utility nodes, and far above average number of unskippable core skills. Some of those skills have returned to Outlaw baseline, creating room for improved pathing and interconnectedness. We have also reworked or redesigned some existing talents and introduced some new options, with the hope that it will expand the gameplay space and options available to popular Outlaw builds.
Many changes have been made to Outlaw talent positions and connections.
Grappling Hook, Blade Flurry, Roll the Bones, and Restless Blades are now baseline abilities.
Prey on the Weak has moved from the Class talent tree to Outlaw, and has been renamed Sting Like a Bee.
New Talent: Airborne Irritant (Passive) – Blind applies to 4 additional nearby enemies while Blade Flurry is active, but has 20% reduced duration.
New Talent: Crackshot (Passive) – Between the Eyes has no cooldown and also Dispatches the target for 100% of normal damage when used from Stealth.
New Talent: Underhanded Upper Hand (Passive) – Slice and Dice does not lose duration during Blade Flurry. Blade Flurry does not lose duration during Adrenaline Rush. Adrenaline Rush does not lose duration during Stealth. Stealth abilities can be used for an additional 3 seconds after Stealth breaks.
Between the Eyes’ critical bonus effect is now a buff on the Rogue (was a debuff on the target).
Thief’s Versatility has been adjusted:
Moved from Class talent tree to Outlaw.
Now a 1-point talent.
Now increases Versatility by 4% (was 2/4%).
Fatal Flourish effect now has a 50% chance to trigger (was 60%).
Deft Maneuvers has been redesigned – Blade Flurry’s initial damage is increased by 100% and generates 1 combo point per target struck.
Swift Slasher has been adjusted – Now causes Slice and Dice to grant additional attack speed equal to 100% of your Haste (was based on combo points spent).
Ace Up Your Sleeve now grants 5 combo points (was 4) and has 5% chance per combo point to trigger (was 4%).
Triple Threat is now a 1-point talent, granting 10% chance to trigger its effect (was 5/10%).
Improved Main Gauche is now a 1-point talent. Per point value has not changed.
Weaponmaster has been removed.
Improved Adrenaline Rush has been adjusted:
No longer grants full combo points when Adrenaline Rush ends.
Now grants full Energy when Adrenaline Rush ends.
Ghostly Strike has been adjusted:
No longer affected by global cooldown.
Cooldown increased to 1.5 minutes (was 35 seconds).
Energy cost increased to 35 (was 30).
Damage increased by 33%.
Now increases damage to the target by 15% (was 10%).
Duration increased to 12 seconds (was 10 seconds).
Dreadblades has been adjusted:
Effect now grants full combo points (was 5).
Energy cost reduced to 30 (was 40).
Backlash damage increased to 8% of current health (was 5%).
Killing Spree has been adjusted:
Moved to capstone location.
Now a finishing move, increasing number of total strikes per combo point (1 strike + 1 per combo point spent).
Damage per strike increased by 33%.
No longer reduces damage taken during effect.
Now causes 100% of damage taken during effect to be delayed, instead taken over 8 seconds.
Haste now affects duration, reducing the time between strikes.
Subtlety
Developers’ note: Subtlety and its talent tree have been in a similar position as Outlaw. The gameplay outcome has been mostly good during Dragonflight so far, but many talents are underused, and rigid pathing with insufficient connections have restricted talent options. We have changed, redesigned, and added new talents alongside improvements to pathing and interconnectedness that will hopefully add up to feeling like there is more gameplay diversity and flexibility in the tree. And while we noted that gameplay outcomes thus far in Dragonflight have been ‘good’, there have been some negative trends we hope to address. To start, Subtlety’s Energy and combo point resource economies have been overflowing, which creates a cascade of issues. Uptime for key cooldowns (predominantly Shadow Dance) has also been higher than expected, forcing overall damage tuning to result in a relatively flat damage profile, especially for a spec that is often known for having moments of increased intensity and burst within those frequent cooldown windows. So, in addition to the more general improvements and additions for talents, there are some changes that affect Subtlety’s Energy and combo point flow that will reduce the floor of their steady downtime rate, and increase the relative value of effects that temporarily offer more resources. It will require tuning and iteration to get to the amounts of total resource generation and damage output in a good state, so any gameplay feedback you would like to share on these topics is welcome. Let us know!
Many changes have been made to Subtlety talent positions and connections.
Shadowstep and Black Powder are now baseline abilities.
Backstab Energy cost increased to 40 (was 35).
Shadowstrike Energy cost increased to 45 (was 40) and damage increased by 16%.
Shadow Techniques has been adjusted:
No longer grants a combo point immediately when its effect is triggered.
Now stores combo points with a stacking buff, up to double your max combo points.
Abilities that generate combo points can expend any stored combo points to generate extra, up to your max combo points.
Energy generation reduced to 3 (was 4).
Find Weakness has been adjusted:
Moved from Class talent tree to Subtlety.
Now a 1-point talent.
Now causes attacks to bypass 30% of armor (was 15/30%).
Shadow Blades has been adjusted:
Now causes all attacks (was combo point generating abilities) to deal 20% additional damage as Shadow (was 50%).
Now causes abilities that generate combo points to generate full combo points (was 1 additional).
New Talent: Ephemeral Bond (Passive) – Increases healing received by 12%.
New Talent: Shadowcraft (Passive) – While Symbols of Death is active, your Shadow Techniques triggers after 1 fewer attack, stores 1 additional combo point, and finishing moves can also expend stored combo points.
New Talent: Goremaw’s Bite – Lashes out at the target, inflicting Shadow damage and causing your next 3 finishing moves to cost no Energy. Awards 3 combo points. Costs 25 Energy. 1 minute cooldown.
New Talent: Stunning Secret (Passive) – Kidney Shot has 100% increased cooldown and Energy cost, and now creates shadow clones to stun all other nearby enemies.
New Talent: Warning Signs (Passive) – Symbols of Death increases your Haste by 6%.
Shrouded in Darkness now causes Shroud of Concealment to persist after leaving its area, in addition to its previous effect.
Eviscerate damage increased by 10%.
Gloomblade Energy cost increased to 40 (was 35).
Planned Execution is now a 1-point talent and increases critical strike chance by 6% (was 5/10%).
Improved Shadow Dance is now a 1-point talent and increases Shadow Dance duration by 2 seconds (was 1/2 seconds).
Shadowed Finishers is now a 1-point talent and its effect causes 25% additional damage as Shadow (was 20/40%).
Shadow Focus now reduces Energy costs by 10% (was 15%).
Deepening Shadows now reduces Shadow Dance cooldown by 0.5 seconds per combo point spent (was 0.7).
Perforated Veins has been redesigned as a 1-point talent – After striking 5 times with Gloomblade, your next attack that generates combo points deals 50% increased damage.
Lingering Shadows is now a 1-point talent. Per point value has not changed.
Deeper Daggers is now a 1-point talent. Per point value has not changed.
Finality buffs no longer have a duration.
The Rotten has been adjusted:
Bonus to damage and critical strike now applies to any attack that generates combo points (was Backstab, Gloomblade, and Shadowstrike).
Effect no longer generates combo points.

What your toughs?

Hope they fix assa aoe with this. Its ne prefered spec in the game, but isnt playing it this xpack

I am not on ptr, but we can get to 300 enrrgy now?

[Twdft]

I am not on ptr, but we can get to 300 enrrgy now?

Yes. And you can pump it all into Exsanguinate
"Active version: 1 minute cooldown. Garrote, Rupture, and Crimson Tempest consume 10 Energy to duplicate 100% of any damage dealt. Lasts 10 seconds."

[Aurrora]

Well, right of the bat it's a nerf to every capstone assassination talent in the mythic+ build, so that's fun.

[Twdft]

Well, right of the bat it's a nerf to every capstone assassination talent in the mythic+ build, so that's fun.

Ignoring that numbers tuning is at least a month in the future... arterial precision was buffed from 20% to 30%, DTB was nerfed probably because dashing scoundrel will give 2 instead of 1 energy, Kingsbane isn't in the same node as DTB so you can have both if you wish, IC is redesigned as a passive and multiplies your bleeds from stealth which will potentially let you apply improved garrote to 12 enemies. Also the new capstone looks sick.

So yeah, I'm not seeing your problem with it.

[Niwes]

i really dislike the Sub changes. Really.

The spec will become much much much slower and less less less smooth. Since we loose the actual TSet bonus that gives us free SoD energy when entrering SD, since all builders cost more energy and since ST and other passive energy reggen will give less enery. The spec will become very slow, pooling dependent, stop-n-go’ish, and very clunky and will not have the same rotation, feeling or flow it had in S1 and S2.

and this sucks. no one asked for this. also we still will have serious self heal problems. and sub asside, assa stll has the nonsense active SnD and the noonelikesit ER shit talent.

not to mention, that m+20 upwards noone will take us, since we bring nothing to the table. its a problem now and will be a problem in 10.2. no clue why Blizzard not give BL to all core DPS classes (Mage, Hunter, Rogue, Lock) since 5+ years. Mages have invis, Mages have Mass Invis. Hunter has invis. No clue why Rogues have no BL.

in short: what ppls asked for was not touched. instead we get some ass full of changes noone asked for and some new things (maybe not that bad) also noone asked for.

don’t get that devs mindset…

[Aurrora]

IC is redesigned as a passive and multiplies your bleeds from stealth which will potentially let you apply improved garrote to 12 enemies.

It's only 9 enemies total, one more than the current IC will give you, and you completely miss out on the 8 Ruptures the current IC gives. It's also tied to stealth so in prolonged combats you're only able to use it every 2 minutes vs every 45 seconds currently. Being tied to stealth also means if you've got a mythic+ group that likes to chain pulls or have an affix that locks you in combat like Spiteful it's going to be harder to get off. Then there's also the mobs that like to randomly break rogues out of stealth like the Troggs that jump around at the start of Uldaman and the jumpy guys in the Halls of Infusion that will lead to you getting less use out of it.

[Geckoo]

As soon as i saw that slice and dice was still a thing i knew that this was not a serious rework and just a talent adjustement, a big one at that and is certainly needed, but does not change the fact that this is an old class full of outdated mechanics and some button bloat.

I gauge the whole thing based on SnD because to me that is the first outdated concept that has to be dealt with, so if they are unable to recognize why this ability should either be totally passive or not exist then i can't expect them to make any serious changes that try to modernize the class.

[Niwes]

it’s sheer crazy how many ppls left that game. look at the blue post rogue thread in official forums, and the „10.2 PTR changes“ thread there, and this thread. unbelievable low amount of posts.

it’s just crazy. seems the game is now REALLY getting old…

[Avengerx]

it’s sheer crazy how many ppls left that game. look at the blue post rogue thread in official forums, and the „10.2 PTR changes“ thread there, and this thread. unbelievable low amount of posts.

it’s just crazy. seems the game is now REALLY getting old…

I think this mostly means that the eu rogue population is low. Us forums still have lots of posts. Also I think people just gave up on posting. Devs hardly respond, and changes are getting worse and worse. "We removed Dreadblades due to ability bloat and as it was hard to balance". Let's put Blade Rush in it's place cause why not?
I don't know, it seems like the one dev that played the class left the room after the BtE now is a personal buff and the Underhanded Upper hand talent idea. I can't speak about sin and sub specs but most of the other outlaw changes seem like they were drunk.

[Doombringer]

There seems to be more and more design decisions around stealth windows and forcing them while actually unstealthed. Shadow Dance, using Vanish offensively, talents like Subterfuge and now Crackshot... yeah.

The Rogue Dev must have grown up playing and loving Subtlety and is out of ideas for Outlaw. As Avengerx said, making BtE a personal buff and Underhanded Upper Hand are good but that's about it? And in the latest build, they even tacked a Stealth window onto Underhanded Upper Hand. If that doesn't speak of a one-note-wonder of design I don't know what is.

Outlaw's feeling more like a ninja than a pirate and that seems fundamentally a violation of the spec's identity.

[Avengerx]

There seems to be more and more design decisions around stealth windows and forcing them while actually unstealthed. Shadow Dance, using Vanish offensively, talents like Subterfuge and now Crackshot... yeah.

The Rogue Dev must have grown up playing and loving Subtlety and is out of ideas for Outlaw. As Avengerx said, making BtE a personal buff and Underhanded Upper Hand are good but that's about it? And in the latest build, they even tacked a Stealth window onto Underhanded Upper Hand. If that doesn't speak of a one-note-wonder of design I don't know what is.

Outlaw's feeling more like a ninja than a pirate and that seems fundamentally a violation of the spec's identity.

I wouldn't mind the outlaw ninja feel if there were other options. E.g replace KiR (maybe make it baseline) with Triple Threat but buff it a lot. Like to 50%, that would mean with new tier set roughly every 4th SS would proc 3 times.
I also don't get the CtO and HO nerfs...I mean current timeline of HO proc % looks like this:
*We have 40% with Weaponmaster atm
*Come 10.2 Weaponmaster is gone, down to 35%
*2pc tier set is revealed, +15%, up to 50%
*HO is nerfed to 80%, we are back to 40%. Just why???

[shoegazing]

Removing Find Weakness from the class tree and making it Subtlety only FUCKING BLOWS

Once again, there goes any hope of building a Rogue that plays like the WotLK/Cata/MoP/WoD masterpiece iterations of Subtlety spec, which in theory is only possible in the modern game by making an Assassination build with Find Weakness + Shadow Dance

I'll be sticking with classic. Fuck retail rogue, can't stand this fucking garbage

[Doombringer]

Removing Find Weakness from the class tree and making it Subtlety only FUCKING BLOWS

Once again, there goes any hope of building a Rogue that plays like the WotLK/Cata/MoP/WoD masterpiece iterations of Subtlety spec, which in theory is only possible in the modern game by making an Assassination build with Find Weakness + Shadow Dance

I'll be sticking with classic. Fuck retail rogue, can't stand this fucking garbage

Last time I played Sub was TBC and that is completely out of my mind. What was good about it before Legion?

I came back to rogue in DF as Outlaw so that's my experience. I can say I have a LOT more fun playing my Ret Pally or Enh Shaman right now. Rogue needs a way better revamp than just shifting some talents around.

[thottstation]

My hand still has muscle memory for Marked For Death.




It's been an intergral part of my PvE/PvP playstyle for years. YEARS.

It's gonna be hell retraining the finger/keybind.


.... and yeah, it is bizarre having Shadow Dance be part of every rogue's core talent tree. The dev is absolutely a Subtlety player who doesn't "get" the other specs.

But they really, really want every rogue (outlaws included) to use Shadowstep. To many people were clearly not chosing that talent and the dev got MAD. "You're not playing the game right! Stop having fun!"

And speaking as a lifelong Combat/Outlaw: The Killing Spree redesign BLOWS.

[Big Thanks]

And speaking as a lifelong Combat/Outlaw: The Killing Spree redesign BLOWS.

May i ask why?
Isn't it better than ever before? :S

[Seiken3]

I'm sad having to leave my rogue main for my alts for the end of this xpac. While I hate having to pop into shadow dance to work around my stealth toolbar to do rotations, I could wrap my head around it if it wasn't for the sanguine blades. It's just a too good of a talent not to take... But then we can't use half of our resource bar.I don't see the point of getting a lot more energy -- that we effectively can't use due to massive dps loss.