"Pay to Win"

[ComputerNerd]

The only thing you have proven thus far is that you are very good at not reading and saying stupid stuff like buying a game buys you power. It completely ignores the fact that without the game you can't play the game and that you do not buy power but still have to play to get that power. You have brought nothing but platitudes that where very easy to refute, but all you do is keep repeating them.
Paying cash to get an advantage in game, it still stands.

Buying an expansion does actually do that.
How can you say that improvements in stats beyond anything that the prior expansion can grant is not player power.
Can a player limited to content from the base game gain the same stats that one with the Burning Crusade expansion is able to ?
Can they compete on equal terms ?
No.

That is player power, by your own definition of the gear from a boost providing that same thing.

It does not stand.
You keep repeating the same flawed statement over and over again.
And keep making a fool of yourself in the process.

You cannot say that gear gained from a boost is player power, while that from an increased level cap and increased content accessibility is not.
You lost the argument, because of the constant refusal to do anything but repeating the same thing.

You keep saying that I am repeating, but I have presented this as another argument.

[taaveti]

It's pay-to-WIN, not pay-to-GAIN-A-MINOR-ADVANTAGE-OVER-OTHER-PLAYERS.

Imo, for a game to be considered pay-to-win, three factors need to be considered:

1. The advantage needs to be competitively-related:

For PVE, even if not considering World Firsts, it should at least affect Server Firsts;
Buying runs with gold obtained from selling tokens could be considered under this.
However, in most cases, by the time Mythic runs are being sold, progression on that server no longer matters.

For PVP, all levels could be considered since most of that can be considered as competitive.
However, the point below must also be considered;

2. The advantage needs to be significant enough:

Gears obtained from buying Mythic runs/gears off AH have very minor impact for player strength in PVP situations.
Level boosting/Experience potion could be considered as advantages, however, they are definitely not significant enough to be called pay-to-win.

3. The advantage needs to be exclusive (or very close to exclusive) to players spending real money:

In other words, the items related need to be either soulbound or, if trade-able, cost a fortune not normally sustainable by players who are not buying gold with real money.

Examples of player powers significant enough to be considered pay-to-win:
- Potions/Scrolls that grant buffs to characters exclusive(or close to exclusive) to players spending real money (BoP and not purchasable with gold);
- Potions/Scrolls that grant significant buffs(>50%) to Artifact Power acquisition (which translates directly to player power);
- High ilvl gears that are purchasable either:
early during a raid tier i.e. a set of Heroic EN gear on the first week Mythic EN was open (thus allowing faster progression);
higher ilvl than obtainable via reasonable means (titanforged mythic raid gears);or
by unlocking additional gear slots exclusive(or close to exclusive) to players spending real money.

Based on the above conditions set, WoW is probably the least pay-to-win MMO you could find in the industry.

Extending the pay-to-win concept to include every minor advantages not competitively-related would make almost every single game with multiplayer function pay-to-win. (Since you could, theoretically, pay a person to hand-hold you through hurdles)

[Deleted]

Buying an expansion does actually do that.
How can you say that improvements in stats beyond anything that the prior expansion can grant is not player power.
Can a player limited to content from the base game gain the same stats that one with the Burning Crusade expansion is able to ?
Can they compete on equal terms ?
No.

That is player power, by your own definition of the gear from a boost providing that same thing.

It does not stand.
You keep repeating the same flawed statement over and over again.
And keep making a fool of yourself in the process.

You cannot say that gear gained from a boost is player power, while that from an increased level cap and increased content accessibility is not.
You lost the argument, because of the constant refusal to do anything but repeating the same thing.

You keep saying that I am repeating, but I have presented this as another argument.

Paying cash to get an in game advantage, it still stands. This isn't another argument, this is the same one you keep bringing up, and its flawed as shit. Buying an expansion is not buying power, its buying a game.

[SinR]

Oh god this is still going?

you buy wow token, sell it for gold, buy a crappy legendary that Joe Smith can grind gold for (which isnt that hard in Legion). You have a MINOR advantage over another player that can't grind gold like Joe Smith can.

Meanwhile, that same player got his BIS out of a emissary cache.

can anybody claim that the crafted Legendaries are BIS? lolno

Also, John Blow (the guy that bought a WoW token and sold it for gold and bought crappy legendary) has the same AP level as the other two players, maybe lower cause he hasn't been 110 that long. He'll gain AP at the same, if not lower, rate than Joe Smith or Josh Mongler (that guy that can't grind gold)

[ComputerNerd]

Paying cash to get an in game advantage, it still stands. This isn't another argument, this is the same one you keep bringing up, and its flawed as shit. Buying an expansion is not buying power, its buying a game.

You gain an advantage from an expansion.
You gain an advantage for your collections.
You dismissing the unwanted definitions does not make them inaccurate or wrong.
Your argument is flawed, not mine.

They are correct, you just don't like them.
That is the difference.

They are still advantages.
And in magnitude of improvement, an expansion offers vastly more than a boost in an instance can.
So offers many times the relative improvement for a fraction of the cost if you were to try and gain the equivalent improvement.

You saw gear gained from a boost as an advantage due to it offering a performance improvement.
So how does an expansion not do that ?
Can a player with equipment equipable at level 60 compete performance-wise with one which has access to gear equipable at level 70 ?
No.
That IS player power, plain and simple.
And that is what you described as being gained from a boost if they gain gear from it.

[Deleted]

You gain an advantage from an expansion.
You gain an advantage for your collections.
You dismissing the unwanted definitions does not make them inaccurate or wrong.
Your argument is flawed, not mine.

They are correct, you just don't like them.
That is the difference.

They are still advantages.
And in magnitude of improvement, an expansion offers vastly more than a boost in an instance can.
So offers many times the relative improvement for a fraction of the cost if you were to try and gain the equivalent improvement.

You saw gear gained from a boost as an advantage due to it offering a performance improvement.
So how does an expansion not do that ?
Can a player with equipment equipable at level 60 compete performance-wise with one which has access to gear equipable at level 70 ?
No.
That IS player power, plain and simple.
And that is what you described as being gained from a boost if they gain gear from it.

Nope, buying a game isn't buying power, its buying a game. No one can become level 70 in vanilla wow, just as no one can get a higher then a level 70 in the burning crusade. You have been grasping at straws for pages now and it still stands, paying cash to get an in game advantage, it still stands.
The difference between buying a boost and buying a game is that you do not have to play the game in order to get your boost, but you still have to play the game in order to advance if you buy a new game.

[papajohn4]

I think the word P2W is made solely for game defenders to have arguments against others.. "If you cant be the TOP player, then everything is fine"... I mean its clear that all of you guys are competing for the Best player ever award and so the gold tokens does not affect you.

Buying gold in wow now can give you a very good advantage.. you can buy Legendaries, you can buy crafted gear and fully upgrade them, and that can buy you a place in a good guild(not top guild, but in a good guild) and a place in good pugs from LFD while the rest must work their gear first to reach this level.

Will it make a bad player good? No. But among equal skilled players, the one that will buy gold will have a good advantage in progression.

In conclusion, I dont care for the definition "Pay to Win" cause is just a tricky phrase that can generate arguments... I care for the "Pay to get advantage over others" and definitely wow does fall into that category as almost 90% of MMOs currently.

[ComputerNerd]

Nope, buying a game isn't buying power, its buying a game. No one can become level 70 in vanilla wow, just as no one can get a higher then a level 70 in the burning crusade. You have been grasping at straws for pages now and it still stands, paying cash to get an in game advantage, it still stands.
The difference between buying a boost and buying a game is that you do not have to play the game in order to get your boost, but you still have to play the game in order to advance if you buy a new game.

It is giving player power though, you buy a boost and you are buying an opportunity to gain power.
Same as what an expansion does.

There is no difference when your repeated definition is used.
Your statement taken as is describes an expansion on equal terms with buying a boost.
In fact the expansion has guarantees that a boost does not.

Your defintion sucks, and you can't accept that.
Instead you simply add more and more rules scattered about this thread.

You buy an expansion for cash, and it gains you advantages in-game.
It gains you unsurmountable advantages over those even one expansion behind, let alone more.
That statement is not wrong.

[Deleted]

I thought P2W was using RL money to make your character better?

[Deleted]

It is, some people are just butt hurt that wow has this option.
Just look at that nerd.

[greeeed]

Pay to win is when you can only get best armor not by raiding but with real money
or
1000 time faster then grinding.

Example: Buy this item for 50$ and it will guarantee that you received two personal drops per boss in next raid you do.
But if you didn't buy it then you will be lucky if boss drop just one loot per whole raid.

Or Make it so only people who bought items with daily recast can get armor+ drop ( 860 become 880 if you are lucky)

[Vorkreist]

I thought P2W was using RL money to make your character better?

Hmm lets see:

Buy token sell it for gold and buy any mythic boost possible.
Result: Highest level of gear acquired by paying Real Life Money.

This doesn't look like P2W at all....

[greeeed]

Hmm lets see:

Buy token sell it for gold and buy any mythic boost possible.
Result: Highest level of gear acquired by paying Real Life Money.

This doesn't look like P2W at all....

As if you couldn't my Mythic boost with real money before that.

[Elim Garak]

This doesn't look like P2W at all....

Correct. It doesn't

[dokilar]

Paying to see you get permanently banned from these forums forever so you'd get off your pathetic trolling lifestyle and get a fucking job.

Infracted

yea because an account perma ban would totally prevent him from posting on the forum ever again....

dont get me wrong, most of the guys posts are laughable but to believe he already doesnt have multiple accounts set up in case one gets banned is rather naive

[Deleted]

Hmm lets see:

Buy token sell it for gold and buy any mythic boost possible.
Result: Highest level of gear acquired by paying Real Life Money.

This doesn't look like P2W at all....

Yeah i totally cuold not buy them before and i totally have the 100% chance to get a full equip and bis with a few run!

/s

[Addict]

Hmm lets see:

Buy token sell it for gold and buy any mythic boost possible.
Result: Highest level of gear acquired by paying Real Life Money.

This doesn't look like P2W at all....

Thats a player based economy thou, it isnt a conrer stone in what blizzard is selling on the store.

people boosting people for currancy isnt P2W, its a market.

[Kimmz]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

As it relates to WoW, do you believe the game is now pay to win, or not at all pay to win?

THIS IS A FOR PROFIT COMPANY. They care about nothing else.