Question about kingsbane and envenom uptime

[Black Jack]

So if im correct we should always envenom before kingsbane and try to keep up the envenom debuff for the entierty of kingbane. My question is do we let rupture/garrote fall off to keep the envenom stacks on and should we pool energy if low? and if so how long should we pool for?

[Spev]

Do not let rupture or garrote fall off. It makes you generate less energy which will hurt far more than not having 100% envenom debuff uptime during kingsbane. And as for pooling energy, pool energy until you hit 80-90 if you are not in a vendetta window. If you are in a vendetta window spend when you can.

[Won7on]

No, don't let your DoTs drop. If Rupture is running out during KB, I will let Envenom drop for a bit if I need to - the important thing is to still hit Mutilates during the Envenom window, as those are double hits that can each apply a poison. A few white swings without an Envenom buff will not make a huge difference (white swings can miss anyway), but going Mut-Mut-Envenom without a buff is a big loss.

So, if I see Rupture is getting close to <7s while KB still has >7s (in other words, Rupture is refreshable, and I see that it needs to be refreshed before KB ends), I typically land a 4/5CP Envenom, immediately go Mut to 4/5, Rupture, and Mut to 4/5 again, all before the Envenom buff falls off. Then, I'll let the Envenom buff expire and Envenom again right at the end of SoT to clip it and re-apply Envenom.

It takes some practice but it becomes intuitive eventually. Basically, try to NEVER Mut without an Envenom buff if KB is running.

Here's an example of more or less what I'm talking about: https://streamable.com/og133. I refresh Rupture during KB and Envenom only falls off for ~0.5 seconds.

[Black Jack]

No, don't let your DoTs drop. If Rupture is running out during KB, I will let Envenom drop for a bit if I need to - the important thing is to still hit Mutilates during the Envenom window, as those are double hits that can each apply a poison. A few white swings without an Envenom buff will not make a huge difference (white swings can miss anyway), but going Mut-Mut-Envenom without a buff is a big loss.

So, if I see Rupture is getting close to <7s while KB still has >7s (in other words, Rupture is refreshable, and I see that it needs to be refreshed before KB ends), I typically land a 4/5CP Envenom, immediately go Mut to 4/5, Rupture, and Mut to 4/5 again, all before the Envenom buff falls off. Then, I'll let the Envenom buff expire and Envenom again right at the end of SoT to clip it and re-apply Envenom.

It takes some practice but it becomes intuitive eventually. Basically, try to NEVER Mut without an Envenom buff if KB is running.

Here's an example of more or less what I'm talking about: https://streamable.com/og133. I refresh Rupture during KB and Envenom only falls off for ~0.5 seconds.

thats very helpful but do you pool if you need to before kingsbane?

[NtflxnChill]

Always pool before KB.

[ScrubRouge]

Once you get use to pooling before KB and keeping close to 100% up time on envenom, you can learn to squeeze even more dmg out of KB by then learning to keep up 100% up time on Surge of Toxin too. on 7.2.5, learning to do both of these will help a lot since KB becomes even more valuable after AP is removed and the new talent.

[Black Jack]

is there a guide somewhere on the mastery of using kingsbane? How long do i pool for? do i wait to pool after 4 combo points or pool before that . I can post logs if that helps but it seems like its impossible to keep close to 100% uptime on envenom


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...3525268/latest

Here are logs for mythic im alot lower than i should be and its frustrating , our guild does take a long time to kill things unfortunately so that probably hurts my dps as well.

[shaunika123]

always pool before KB if you can

you can also use less 3 CP finishers to make sure env and rupture stays on during it.

Once you get use to pooling before KB and keeping close to 100% up time on envenom, you can learn to squeeze even more dmg out of KB by then learning to keep up 100% up time on Surge of Toxin too. on 7.2.5, learning to do both of these will help a lot since KB becomes even more valuable after AP is removed and the new talent.

yeah but to be fair, it'll also be easier because we'Ll have 20% extra haste if things stay as they are

plus we wont have to worry about pooling for shoulders either

[NtflxnChill]

always pool before KB if you can

you can also use less 3 CP finishers to make sure env and rupture stays on during it.



yeah but to be fair, it'll also be easier because we'Ll have 20% extra haste if things stay as they are

plus we wont have to worry about pooling for shoulders either

Why would you not pool for shoulders in 7.2.5

[shaunika123]

Why would you not pool for shoulders in 7.2.5

because you wont be using them

[NtflxnChill]

because you wont be using them

ofc you will, it's the bis lego.

[shaunika123]

ofc you will, it's the bis lego.

okay, good luck with that

[Black Jack]

okay, good luck with that

From what ive read the t19 2pc isnt going to be that strong due to nerfs and agonizing poison change. Would you mine elaborating

[shaunika123]

From what ive read the t19 2pc isnt going to be that strong due to nerfs and agonizing poison change. Would you mine elaborating

it's still about 2% dmg

and that's beside the point
with t19 4pc gone AND t20 2pc and 4pc indirectly buffing bracers it's going to be better
especially if there are more than 1 target on the fight

and remember, agonizing nerf is a nerf to shoulders too
your envenom damage will drop drastically without agonizing and t19 4pc and the whole point of the shoulders was funneling huge envenoms in a small burst window
if your envenoms crit 1.5 milion not 3.2 million then shoulders loses some of the appeal

[NtflxnChill]

it's still about 2% dmg

and that's beside the point
with t19 4pc gone AND t20 2pc and 4pc indirectly buffing bracers it's going to be better
especially if there are more than 1 target on the fight

and remember, agonizing nerf is a nerf to shoulders too

Where are the sims, ohh wait they don't exist :thinking:

[shaunika123]

Where are the sims, ohh wait they don't exist :thinking:

uhm... they do?

i sim like 10k less with shoulders 4pc than with 2pc 4pc bracers, and the longer the fight duration the bigger the difference(which for progress is important)

and with extra targets(which based on NH more fights will have than less) the bracers are even more valuable

maybe in like super decked out 945 gear where you lose too many stats with using t19, and with speedkill farm fights shoulders might become bis again, but i dont think it will before that

[NtflxnChill]

uhm... they do?

i sim like 10k less with shoulders 4pc than with 2pc 4pc bracers

maybe in like super decked out 945 gear where you lose too many stats with using t19, shoulders might become bis again, but i dont think it will before that

So tldr; it's all feelycrafting/spreading misinformation, gotcha.

[Deleted]

From what ive read the t19 2pc isnt going to be that strong due to nerfs and agonizing poison change. Would you mine elaborating

This are assumptions, but again the t19 2pc outshines still any realistic alternative to this date of testing. And yes, all changes included.

Due to the fucking loot system there are indeed stronger options around, but they require ridiculously high tf procs (ilvl range 925-955) of items with lower base ilvl than nighthold mythic, while the set of t19 helment and t19 cloak only requires 910 to beat all new ToS items with ilvls around 935 to 940 on mythic.

Depending on your gear (ToS mythic setup with or without wf/tf procs) the t19 2p proc itself will do something around 25k to 34k dps. Quite difficult to catch up these dps values only with stats.

Just to clarify again: All changes included and calculated with simulations (not only made by "brain storming"). The values are calculated with alacrity build. Besides all the class changes/nerfs etc our dps will increase significantly in ToS. The damage of mutilate will increase not only due to the gear upgrades but also due to the dmg buff. This has a direct impact on the old set bonus.

[shaunika123]

So tldr; it's all feelycrafting/spreading misinformation, gotcha.

i literally just said
that i simmed myself, and it does less

HOW THE HELL IS THAT FEELCRAFTING

are you just throwing around phrases you heard somewhere else?

[Black Jack]

This are assumptions, but again the t19 2pc outshines still any realistic alternative to this date of testing. And yes, all changes included.

Due to the fucking loot system there are indeed stronger options around, but they require ridiculously high tf procs (ilvl range 925-955) of items with lower base ilvl than nighthold mythic, while the set of t19 helment and t19 cloak only requires 910 to beat all new ToS items with ilvls around 935 to 940 on mythic.

Depending on your gear (ToS mythic setup with or without wf/tf procs) the t19 2p proc itself will do something around 25k to 34k dps. Quite difficult to catch up these dps values only with stats.

Just to clarify again: All changes included and calculated with simulations (not only made by "brain storming"). The values are calculated with alacrity build. Besides all the class changes/nerfs etc our dps will increase significantly in ToS. The damage of mutilate will increase not only due to the gear upgrades but also due to the dmg buff. This has a direct impact on the old set bonus.

Does that mean vendetta relics will drop in favor of rupture/garrote relics?