Monks fun at 110?

[Frandaero]

WW is the most fun I've had in the game. Still feels bad when you have to do a lot more than other damage classes and you still are at the bottom/middle of the damage charts.

I can only be first or top of the charts on AoE cheesefests like Skorpyron.

[ReD-EyeD]

I'm not sure about asking if class is fun in dedicated to that class subforum.

I mostly played BRM and it is actually enjoyable in its own way, but I like prot warrior gameplay much more. BRM while being interesting have that "I don't care" mentality about damage spikes and I find managing cooldowns actually fun on other tanks.

[Cempa]

WW (for me) was the most fun build I had ever played in any MMO over the past 10 years hands down ,, when Legion opened I played:

Eye of the Tiger / Hit Combo / Serenity and it was crazy fun especially PvP wise .. Now the build got way too many nurfs and you would need to play:

Chi Wave / Energizing elixir / I.X. Tiger / Whirling Punch and you can see that it x4 more buttons to press which is just too much for me .. If you can have fun with that many buttons then go for it m8 ..

[lewdest]

I loved MW Monk back in MoP, but I tried it without Chi and Mana Tea and it was just completely bland and boring. It went from being a cool unique healer to just being a worse Resto Druid.

[Swalload]

FUN for me(only talking about WW):

Complex class to prove that im capable of pulling it off and smirk on easy class players.

WW/DPS is the hardest to play, the most complex, and as for now, the developers least fav(even thou everything works, the numbers are lower than it should be) - everything is "agaisnt" the WW - unless you see it from a another perspective, then its gets really reaaally fun.

And if you master the monk, you master everything else. In some cases, its litteraly feels like going back from uni to the elementary school.

... chill out, lol, WW is nowhere near the most complex class lol. The rotation is FoF then WDP then sit on your ass for 15 seconds with nothing decent to do. I'm parsing monstrous numbers without feel like I have to press buttons. Positioning yourself to hit 3 dudes instead of 2 with FoF is the hardest part of the rotation, almost everything else is just use on CD except a few fights where there's a specific situation, but that's the same for every class, nothing special for WW here.

I found Survival to be far more complex, seeing that every single GCD matters and you always have a bunch of stuff ready to use, so it's easy to use the wrong thing at the wrong moment, unlike WW which can't be any more straight forward and easy to understand.

WW is what made me try other DPS classes cuz it was too simple and quite frankly boring. Also the humongous strike of the windlord nerf that changed the skill from a "use at the right moment for maximum efficiency" to "spam on CD herpderp".

On topic: BrM is the most fun to me and currently my main. I enjoyed MW a lot specially in PvP until it got nerfed cuz it's not a druid.

[Exerionx]

I find my alt MW really fun and enjoying it a lot so far! BrM doesn't interest me and WW is pretty fun too actually.

[Thelxi]

I find BM and MM to be a lot of fun. Not necessarily strong, but a bit different than the other healers and tanks. Monks have a lot of shortcomings though and don't excel at much. WW I don't like much because it does not excel at anything really other than aoe burst and above average mobility. Not a very high quality of life compared to some other dps specs.

If you are thinking about PvP, MW is very interesting. It is mobile and with a unique playstyle that is effective and simple.

Again though when compared to other classes the quality of life and viability is not always there. I wouldn't main a monk in their current state, but as alts they are a lot of fun.

[Beingbob]

... chill out, lol, WW is nowhere near the most complex class lol. The rotation is FoF then WDP then sit on your ass for 15 seconds with nothing decent to do. I'm parsing monstrous numbers without feel like I have to press buttons. Positioning yourself to hit 3 dudes instead of 2 with FoF is the hardest part of the rotation, almost everything else is just use on CD except a few fights where there's a specific situation, but that's the same for every class, nothing special for WW here.

I found Survival to be far more complex, seeing that every single GCD matters and you always have a bunch of stuff ready to use, so it's easy to use the wrong thing at the wrong moment, unlike WW which can't be any more straight forward and easy to understand.

WW is what made me try other DPS classes cuz it was too simple and quite frankly boring. Also the humongous strike of the windlord nerf that changed the skill from a "use at the right moment for maximum efficiency" to "spam on CD herpderp".

So complexity = save your skills until you can pad at as many targets as possible? Because that's still a big part of parsing high as a WW on a lot of fights, unfortunately.

Anyhow, I don't see why survival is praised as so complex. It has a lot of abilities with little to no synergy and a tedious short duration buff to maintain, that's all.

I've played about half the DPS specs in Legion now, and imo WW is definitely among the more complex; more so than any ranged spec, warriors, DKs, rogues and ofc havoc. The baseline rotation might not be much more involved than what most classes got, but at least there's a bit of resource management involved in making sure you don't end up starved when your stronger abilities come off cooldown. What gives it some depth is having two cooldowns that change your rotation (where many specs have only 1 that makes no difference) and should be coordinated, which is complicated when the boss has certain phases (e.g. adds) that make you want to save your cooldown(s), forcing the choice between optimal cooldown usage and using it as many times as possible in a fight.

It's also quite fun, except that there are some incredible frustrations with how Storm, Earth and Fire is buggy and can cause abilities to do less damage than when you don't use cooldowns, as well as having to build Crane stacks with Serenity.

[Swalload]

So complexity = save your skills until you can pad at as many targets as possible? Because that's still a big part of parsing high as a WW on a lot of fights, unfortunately.

Anyhow, I don't see why survival is praised as so complex. It has a lot of abilities with little to no synergy and a tedious short duration buff to maintain, that's all.

I've played about half the DPS specs in Legion now, and imo WW is definitely among the more complex; more so than any ranged spec, warriors, DKs, rogues and ofc havoc. The baseline rotation might not be much more involved than what most classes got, but at least there's a bit of resource management involved in making sure you don't end up starved when your stronger abilities come off cooldown. What gives it some depth is having two cooldowns that change your rotation (where many specs have only 1 that makes no difference) and should be coordinated, which is complicated when the boss has certain phases (e.g. adds) that make you want to save your cooldown(s), forcing the choice between optimal cooldown usage and using it as many times as possible in a fight.

It's also quite fun, except that there are some incredible frustrations with how Storm, Earth and Fire is buggy and can cause abilities to do less damage than when you don't use cooldowns, as well as having to build Crane stacks with Serenity.

Complexity in a DPS rotation is only about using the right thing at the right time, keeping track of things (debuffs, dots, etc) and managing ressources.
Monk only has to deal with the first one, cuz there's nothing to keep track of, there's no debuff, the only buff is hit combo which is automatically up all the time with the basic rotation and the near absent ressource managing, the lack of actual abilities to use make it so simple it's a near brain dead rotation to achieve maximum result. That or I'm a fucking god. I literally feel like I don't have to think and I end up with very good parses. And I'm not like super used to it either, I mostly play BrM and I never even played monk before Legion.

The problem is WW that makes it so easy IMO is the long dead time between each FoF+WDP. All you have to do it weave in very slowly tiger palm and blackout kicks, with rising sun kicks on cooldown. Nothing has to be done fast, nothing has to be precise, so long as you don't let ressource cap you're never punished. Actually, spamming them too much will make you chi starved for FoF. That was the only "hard" thing to understand about WW, after 2 fights you're supposed to understand that, adjust, and there you go, easymode as fuck.

Surv is more complex because you always have a lot of abilities available but if you use the wrong one it's a dps loss and it depends with every situation. As WW is tigerpalm and blackout kick, the 2 weakest abilities, so even if you wait or fall asleep, it's meaningless. In survival you have to weave in the right shit as the right time in between Mongoose spam to not waste potential mastery procs all while keeping your shits up (caltrops, mok nathal buff, if it's aoe dont let butchery on max stacks, lacerate always up, [not even counting explosive trap cuz the cooldown is too long compared to the rest]). And that shit goes on ALL THE TIME it's not one special moment of 3-5 seconds every 20 seconds with a giant deadtime of 15 seconds in between like WW.

[Saverem]

I currently have a FDK, WW, HDH, Ret, and FWar.

For raiding I'd rank them: DH > War > FDK > WW. (Never raided with my Ret) in terms of fun/rotation. WW is my least favorite simply because of how their AoE works. I really hate AoEing in raids as a WW. You'll NEED to pretty much be standing inside the mobs for FoF and even then, half the mobs are going to be OOR. Hopefully the new 8 yard range FoF will help with that. SCK is also the most annoying AoE to set up. If you don't have your SEF up, it's even more AIDS. Compare that with Fury AoE which is literally spin2win. Havoc and FDK AoE are also extremely easy and rewarding to use. In terms of ST damage, I like the Monk, but it's definitely the class that is most likely to give you CTS as there is A LOT of buttons to click and FAST because they have naturally low 1s GCD. So it's fast paced class (which I like) with a lot of buttons in the rotations. If you like that, then you'll like WW ST rotation. This also makes WWs one of the hardest specs to master.


For M+ I actually really like DH with the Demonic build. Eyebeam is basically a superior FoF since it has a 20 yard range. Wars are also fun. WW is actually a lot better here than raiding since your FoF actually hits a lot more. WW is pretty fun in M+.

PvP I like WW a lot here. They sort of remind me of a melee Mage. If a Warrior or DK looks at you, you'll die unless you can juke them, kite them, use ToK at the right time, use transcendence heal, etc. I like that they have to work to survive instead of like, being a DK and just having a lot of armor and a CD that full heals them... Rets are also very fun here. DHs are fun in BGs but I hate them in arenas. Warriors are OK. DKs are probably the least fun for me since I value mobility over tankiness for survival.

[Deleted]

... chill out, lol, WW is nowhere near the most complex class lol. The rotation is FoF then WDP then sit on your ass for 15 seconds with nothing decent to do. I'm parsing monstrous numbers without feel like I have to press buttons. Positioning yourself to hit 3 dudes instead of 2 with FoF is the hardest part of the rotation, almost everything else is just use on CD except a few fights where there's a specific situation, but that's the same for every class, nothing special for WW here.

I found Survival to be far more complex, seeing that every single GCD matters and you always have a bunch of stuff ready to use, so it's easy to use the wrong thing at the wrong moment, unlike WW which can't be any more straight forward and easy to understand.

WW is what made me try other DPS classes cuz it was too simple and quite frankly boring. Also the humongous strike of the windlord nerf that changed the skill from a "use at the right moment for maximum efficiency" to "spam on CD herpderp".

On topic: BrM is the most fun to me and currently my main. I enjoyed MW a lot specially in PvP until it got nerfed cuz it's not a druid.

OH OKAY.

Yeah simple. Good you explained everything, thanks needed that.

Lets ask a survival hunter. Guess what, you have to be objective. In this game, because of fucking 10-13 abilities you have to use actively as WW(depending on the talents), its the most complex. Don't explain.

[Polanco]

Hunter is my main, but monk is my 1st alt, and I do questing as WW and do raids/dungeons as MW, and love both.

[Swalload]

OH OKAY.

Yeah simple. Good you explained everything, thanks needed that.

Lets ask a survival hunter. Guess what, you have to be objective. In this game, because of fucking 10-13 abilities you have to use actively as WW(depending on the talents), its the most complex. Don't explain.

What is it you dont understand about "FoF then WDP then sit on your ass" ?
There's nothing to explain, that's the fucking rotation.
OKAY MY APOLIGIES, THERE'S RISING SUN KICK ON COOLDOWN, NOTHING MORE COMPLEX

Go get a fucking master's degree to play a class that is not punished for doing basically nothing for 15 seconds straight in it's core rotation.
Anyone who think WW is complex needs a reality check, you fucking suck at this game, period, sorry not sorry.

[Deleted]

What is it you dont understand about "FoF then WDP then sit on your ass" ?
There's nothing to explain, that's the fucking rotation.
OKAY MY APOLIGIES, THERE'S RISING SUN KICK ON COOLDOWN, NOTHING MORE COMPLEX

Go get a fucking master's degree to play a class that is not punished for doing basically nothing for 15 seconds straight in it's core rotation.
Anyone who think WW is complex needs a reality check, you fucking suck at this game, period, sorry not sorry.

Not even surprised, how much time the casual trash group spends on thier class(and in general), before they think they understand every aspect of the game(remembering the Blue reponse always makes me smile).

Can you count?

RSK
SCK
CJL
MotC
SotW or SotWL
EE
WDP
CW
CB
ToD
FoF
RJW

12 ABILITIES YOU ACTIVELY HAVE TO MANAGE(you can take 1 max 2 out from talents and go with passives, still 10). This is just for the rotation(you still have 3-4 different abilities with direct impact on your mobility, which is the strength of WW, 1 CC and 1 stun from talent).

You have to deal perfectly with every situation, using ATLEAST 18 different abilities.

=

No, its just not RISING SUNRISE ON CD. Mastering WW is mastering every fucking class in game. Im not saying its hard, but out of all the DPS specs, this one is the hardest.

Now, you talk about survival hunters(and base your arguments with "OH".. "But SV is more GCD sensetive)... As if SV is the only class depending on GCD.

Show me facts or fuck off.

[ReD-EyeD]

Amount of buttons to press (and it's obviously exaggerated in the post above) =/= complexity of the spec.

WW has very fluid rotation, but it's very basic and doesn't really involve intensive decision making and/or intensive button smashing like some other 90+ apm specs.

[SeethingAzathoth]

Amount of buttons to press (and it's obviously exaggerated in the post above) =/= complexity of the spec.

WW has very fluid rotation, but it's very basic and doesn't really involve intensive decision making and/or intensive button smashing like some other 90+ apm specs.

It has more abilities you will use regularly and will require more keybinds. You've boiled it down to a semantic argument by hinging your statement on the definition of "complexity".

No other class has to work as hard as windwalker for the same effect. Survival has a comparable amount of buttons to press regularly depending on talent choice. They still have less keybinds.

In pvp this especially obvious. You will use disable, you will use your terrible little 150k heal with a cast time, you will use your transcendence and transfer (which both need to be hotkeyed), you will use flying kick and roll, you will tiger's lust, you will jade lightning to knockback and paralyze one target and leg sweep the other so you don't DR both targets for stuns. The list goes on.

We by far have the most tools at our disposal and it means each little utility cannot be as powerful in its own right. Fists is the single exceptional ability the class has and Blizzard obviously sees it as an issue considering the stun was made into a talent and has been touched multiple times in the expansion.

Compare this to a demon hunter where almost every ability they have provides both damage and utility. You will work overtime as a monk to get the same results. Standing there and mashing TP and BK between CD gated damage abilities is the lowest point of the spec and you're just creating a strawman by acting as if that is all the class does.

[ReD-EyeD]

No other class has to work as hard as windwalker for the same effect.

This statement alone showed your knowledge about other dps specs. And 12 buttons (and you even mentioned long dps cooldowns) is pretty common for most classes.

[SeethingAzathoth]

This statement alone showed your knowledge about other dps specs.

Great comeback. You're right, I play all the classes pretty heavily, and I've moved away from WW and into BrM after realizing how ridiculous the button bloat for them still is. Just to achieve the same or lesser effect.

Let me be fair though: how about you engage and point out what you disagree with? Would you explain what makes the class not complex? Do you have something to say about the number of buttons used by WW versus say, MM hunters? Assassination rogues? Frost Mages? Spriests?

[ReD-EyeD]

Great comeback. You're right, I play all the classes pretty heavily, and I've moved away from WW and into BrM after realizing how ridiculous the button bloat for them still is. Just to achieve the same or lesser effect.

Let me be fair though: how about you engage and point out what you disagree with? Would you explain what makes the class not complex? Do you have something to say about the number of buttons used by WW versus say, MM hunters? Assassination rogues? Frost Mages? Spriests?

First of all I wouldn't compare melee class to ranged class or at least not to casters (even to fast casting ones like frost mages). DHs are special case too, because they're basically "press a glowing button - deal 2 million dps", a ~heroic class~ indeed.

And I already said that amount of buttons involved in the rotation does not equal to its complexity. For example feral druids have only 4 skills (and overall even more than WW) you need to manage (read: manage, not press whenever) Savage Roar (buff), Rake, Rip and Moonfire and unlike monks you actually care about your "combo points" and energy and not see them as something like rage pulling.
Arms warriors are different kind of "hard" spec to manage. Even for non-perfect play you need AT LEAST 90+ effective APM which is actually double of WW. It's not the hardest rotation around mechanic-wise, but it's damn tight and very unforgiving for mistakes. And no, it's not a mindless buttonsmashing, you actually need to manage your Battle Cry rage bursts and balance rage with Focus Rage.

[SeethingAzathoth]

First of all I wouldn't compare melee class to ranged class or at least not to casters (even to fast casting ones like frost mages). DHs are special case too, because they're basically "press a glowing button - deal 2 million dps", a ~heroic class~ indeed.

And I already said that amount of buttons involved in the rotation does not equal to its complexity. For example feral druids have only 4 skills (and overall even more than WW) you need to manage (read: manage, not press whenever) Savage Roar (buff), Rake, Rip and Moonfire and unlike monks you actually care about your "combo points" and energy and not see them as something like rage pulling.
Arms warriors are different kind of "hard" spec to manage. Even for non-perfect play you need AT LEAST 90+ effective APM which is actually double of WW. It's not the hardest rotation around mechanic-wise, but it's damn tight and very unforgiving for mistakes. And no, it's not a mindless buttonsmashing, you actually need to manage your Battle Cry rage bursts and balance rage with Focus Rage.

The only reason Arms can go above 60 APM is because the FR build has core abilities off the GCD though. Is that complexity? Is it carpal tunnel? Whatever you want to call it really. We've already established this is just some touchy-feely qualified statement.

Off the top of my head though, here are all the abilities I have bound in some form. Many of these are also bound more than once to assist in targeting in pvp.

Tiger palm
Blackout Kick
Rising Sun kick
Fists of Fury
Spinning Crane kick
Whirling Dragon punch
SEF
Flying Serpent kick
Disable
Effuse
Chi Wave
Tiger's Lust
Energizing Elixir
Leg Sweep
Healing Elixir
Detox
Touch of Death
Touch of Karma
Spear Hand Strike
Strike of the Windlord
Roll
Paralysis
Crackline Jade Lightning
Transcendence
Transcendence Transfer

I've left out Xuen because he's pretty optional but I would judge you for not taking tiger's lust and chi wave. I also bind resuscitate because it's won me arena games. I doubt most people do though.

All of these abilities have a use. Most of them more than one use. It's a utility loaded class and because there is so much spread across so many abilities, from a design standpoint you cannot adjust many skills without either making them obsolete or overpowered. That is a *bad* place to be in as a game developer.

Because monks *have* the ability to detox and to run away and use effuse 4-5 times, everything else in the kit has to suffer. Effuse cannot be strong because it uses energy and in 5 seconds you can run away and spam it 4 more times. This means each effuse has to be weak, and a player experiences this feeling starved when you resort to effusing. But you have it in your kit and if you don't then you're playing sub-optimally.

Monk abilities therefore cannot have too much baked in healing or dispels because then they have too much utility with detox and effuse already existing. If we keep touch of karma, giving us more DR cooldowns would be too strong. If tiger's lust removes snares, having roll remove snares too is too strong. But how do you touch abilities like detox, ToK, paralysis or roll without destroying them? The abilities themselves are very binary utility.

Again, a bad point to be in from a game development standpoint because if you were to nerf paralysis to not work on targets that are casting, it becomes a shit tier CC on a cooldown, but at least WW lose an interrupt. If you were to make disable only root slowed targets, the ability itself becomes too niche. If you combine transcendence the player loses utility.

These are just hypothetical changes that I'm hoping illustrate my point that we have a ton of utility spread across many abilities. The bloat from this and the fragility of all these abilities makes the class feel bad to play. Why should I bother rolling and pressing disable to gap clear (while dealing next to no damage) when a warrior pressed charge and already began mashing face? The clear reason why is that my abilities are more versatile. Windwalker suffers for that versatility when the new game paradigm is boiling down classes into MOBA characters.