1. #2261
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    "Stop pointing out the thing that refutes me easily. Use only the things I think help my case"
    What? What you said can make sense only under these conditions:

    1. I watched TOS
    2. There are only TOS and DSC

    So lets for the sake of argument assume that TOS is as bad as DSC when it comes to character development (I don't know since I haven't watched it). Does it help your case in support of DSC? Nope.

    So either up your game or get out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Go back to the salamanders. What did that change for Janeway and Paris? When was it later referenced? How did it change them?
    Should it have? Is it either no character development or every episode should develop characters? I don't play a false dichotomy game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Outside of Seven and maybe Data no Star Trek character ever really grew over the course of a series
    What?

    Worf (over two series even), LaForge, "Broccoli", Picard, Wesly (Yes, that, Wesly), O'Brien, Q, Quark, Rom, even Morn, I can go on.

    And that's excluding Enterprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Discovery actually has more character development
    Demonstrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    This must be why Tapestry is one of the most boring of TNG episodes of all time, right? Learning about Picard's history and how it affected him does nothing to develop his character, I guess.
    I said it's not character development - not that it doesn't help.

    Picard's past was not the development in that episode, it was just a background. His past caused him a problem in the present. His acceptance of the past to resolve the problem - that's development. It's actually one of the episodes in which Picard developed his character, for reals. Q gave him a chance to RELIVE his past and do things differently and so he did and didn't like it - he realizes a very important lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    And it was never even referenced again
    That's the beauty of real character development IT DOESN'T FUCKING NEED TO BE REFERENCED. Like "remember how I did that?" That's not character development. History in and of itself is not character development. Remembering history and referencing it - is a quality EVERY person has, from day 0.
    I felt Picard's dilemma and I saw how he resolved it - he CHANGED right in that episode - that affects his character in ALL consecutive episodes - with NO referencing requirements. "Hey remember how I got broken artificial heart and that surgery and had this vision or maybe it WAS Q?" <- that's not character development.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2021 - that's two-zero-two-one, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of masked sissies.

  2. #2262
    What kind of audience are you talking about? Star Trek is supposed to be about how to solve difficult moral dilemmas without compromising on your ethics. In a show that can have real interracial diversity, the writers instead choose to focus on 1000000 shades of human.

    Characters like Adira, Burnham, Tilly and Stamets belong in a teenage drama like Skins, not a show about adults. When was the last time we've had a Ferengi, a Cardassian, an Orion or a Bajoran as a main character? Lower Decks not included, which is an excellent show and not at all like Discovery.

  3. #2263
    I've only seen good episodes of TOS and beginning of TNG but the TOS feeling of friendship really shined for me. In the beginning it was all Kirk. Then Spock started growing and Kirk began listening to him more and they became better friends. As time went Bones started getting closer to them and arguing with Spock more. Kirks role changed from sole hero to listening and handling them. He was still leader but wasn't alone. They looked like good friends by end. It was the dynamics from real life going into the show.

    In TNG that girl died and Data missed her during the court case but still didn't feel like anything changed. Relationships were same as before, Picard felt like he was alone at the top.

    No idea about Discovery so kind of off topic.

  4. #2264
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    When was the last time we've had a Ferengi, a Cardassian, an Orion or a Bajoran as a main character?
    DS9 wrapped 21 years ago.

    You might have missed it, but the XO/Captain for the majority of this show so far has been a non-human character. A character whose non-human traits and experiences have been very important to the stories he's been part of...

  5. #2265
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    DS9 wrapped 21 years ago.

    You might have missed it, but the XO/Captain for the majority of this show so far has been a non-human character. A character whose non-human traits and experiences have been very important to the stories he's been part of...
    The only human main character was O'Brien I guess - if you consider Irish to be humans, that is.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2021 - that's two-zero-two-one, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of masked sissies.

  6. #2266
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    The only human main character was O'Brien I guess
    um... Sisko? Bashir?

    Unless I'm missing the joke (other than the one at the expense of Irish people).

  7. #2267
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    um... Sisko? Bashir?

    Unless I'm missing the joke (other than the one at the expense of Irish people).
    Sisko is not (fully) human as we learn from the story.
    Bashir is superhuman - hence his interest in the Irish.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2021 - that's two-zero-two-one, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of masked sissies.

  8. #2268
    I will say one thing I didn't like about Saru is they made dealing with his species into a weakness. I can understand getting a bit emotional about it, considering his species have changed a lot from a pretty terrible way of life. Its just an odd message. Usually having a member of another species creates interesting scenarios, good and bad, when interacting with that species. Instead it felt like Saru couldn't be trusted if his species was involved.

    Meanwhile, Burnham being a not-vulcan means she's always the best person to talk to vulcans.

  9. #2269
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Instead it felt like Saru couldn't be trusted if his species was involved.
    Fully agree with this. Anytime something involved a Kelpien, Saru's emotions got in the way of his better judgment. It's definitely his blind spot.

    Meanwhile, Burnham being a not-vulcan means she's always the best person to talk to vulcans.
    Well, since there's no Vulcan's in the crew apparently she is the logical choice since she was raised on Vulcan with Vulcans
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  10. #2270
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    I enjoy the show.

    And I'm the one who said, in several paragraphs, that the characters had very little actual development.

    As someone else pointed out, and I agree with, they have a lot of things happening TO them - but that it not character development. The characters themselves, inside their minds, their logic, how they respond, hasn't changed and continues to not change - the ONLY exception to this so far is Saru's character, that I've seen. A few other characters appeared to have development in Season 1 though - but its all been lost/tossed/went no where.

    And I also disagree that characters didn't change over the course of TNG - they did. They didn't become fundamentally different people, but there was definite growth, for more than just one or two characters, over the course of the seasons directly related to events happening in episodes. I can't speak to TOS - its been 20+ years since I watched those episodes; but they did only have what - 3 seasons? 4? before being pulled (again can't remember sorry!) But they had big character growth over the course of the movies after TOS was cancelled. (Hell, they spent entire movies based around some of the characters' growing pains.)

    I still enjoy the show (DISC), but that 'little character growth' that is (or isn't) happening may end up destroying my enjoyment of the rest of the show. As I explained in prior posts.

    Its possible to enjoy a show and still acknowledge and discuss its flaws. That's not hate mongering or hate watching; and neither is it 'only joy of the show.'

    Sorry, I don't want to see only posts about how 'joyful' the show makes someone anymore than I want to see posts about hate-watching. I'd rather have posts that can discuss the positives AND NEGATIVES. That keeps discussion going. Keeps it interesting.

    And apparently since some people think it has any relevance to this discussion - I also enjoyed TOS, TNG, and DS9 (so many seasons...lol). I did not enjoy Voyager or Enterprise. (Did I miss a series? I may have... I can't remember.) I enjoyed the original movies (all of them - to varying degrees of course lol), and I also enjoy (all) the reboots (to varying degrees - not saying all movies are equal here lol).
    Last edited by Koriani; 2021-02-02 at 07:57 PM.
    Koriani - Guardians of Forever - BM Huntard on TB; Kharmic - Worgen Druid - TB
    Koriani - none - Dragon of Secret World
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    inactive: Frith-Rae - Horizons/Istaria; Koriani in multiple old MMOs. I been around a long time.

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