(TV) Star Trek: Discovery

[Biomega]

I'm having a difficult time understanding exactly what Voq/Ash Tyler is.

Did they:

(1) Take Voq, cut out all the extra, Klingon stuff, harvest some organs, skin and brain matter from Ash Tyler

(2) Take Ash Tyler, and put some Klingon biology into him, including parts of Voq's brain

(3) Take a little from Column A, a little from Column B and make a new entity?

I don't understand why they needed to carve the both of them up.

Same, it seemed very haphazardly explained. Also why didn't super sophisticated Starfleet scanners not pick up SOMETHING was up? That whole "oh we just thought it was nothing" explanation is ludicrous for someone coming out of imprisonment on an enemy ship with substantial trauma.

Gotta say, though, did not see that plot twist coming at the end of last ep. Not necessarily thrilled about where this seems to be going, but hey, I'll give credit where credit is due they put in the clues and everything but it wasn't exactly obvious.

[Ivanstone]

(1) Take Voq, cut out all the extra, Klingon stuff, harvest some organs, skin and brain matter from Ash Tyler

Its definitely this in part. The skeleton is Voq's and most of the brain. Not sure how much additional work is added on.

Its seems a little too convenient since we know a 23rd Century tricorder will notice but we can partially assume that the work is much more extensive than what was done to Arne Darvin.

[WoWGoneBad]

With Tyler,

They took most of the organs from Voq and implanted them into Ash. Then she used cerebral medical technique to bring Voq's consciousness into Tylers Brain. The Bones are Tylers, most of the Organs are Tylers, but some of the organs are Voq's and the memories are Voq's as well

For a somewhat comparison, think of what the Thinker in Flash did with that Dominique character. He transferred his memories into Dominique head and took it over. Voq is similar to that line of thinking only not as complete. I think Voq underestimated Ash's resolve.

With the rest of the episode, I totally did not see Lorca coming from the Mirror Universe to get Burnham. That was a great plot twist. I hope this leads the series to be more about the Mirror Universe and not going back to Fed Space.

Think of all the action, story and fun they can weave if they keep Discovery in the MU.

[Ivanstone]

With Tyler,

They took most of the organs from Voq and implanted them into Ash. Then she used cerebral medical technique to bring Voq's consciousness into Tylers Brain. The Bones are Tylers, most of the Organs are Tylers, but some of the organs are Voq's and the memories are Voq's as well

No, Culber clearly stated that the skeleton showed signs of being shrunk ie a Klingon got his skeleton manipulated to appear as a smaller human.

[Puri]

I have to admit while everything else was predictable or "previously imaginable" until now the plot twist got me by surprise.
But as always with those greater schemes and master plans you should not think too much about it, so many things could have gone differently and then he would not stand where he is now.

[Biomega]

The whole surgery thing is so incredibly contrived. What's the deal with transplanting organs and/or a skeleton, all of which has to be extensively modified on a molecular level with its DNA altered etc. only to then transplant the consciousness into the brain - which they for some reason could not have done without sawing them both into pieces, or what?

And then to restore him it's a simple matter of putting on the magic brain mittens? What?

[Serenais]

Regarding the last episode's twist, I wonder.
Lorca couldn't have known they'd end up in the mirror universe when they did; his universe doesn't contain functioning spore drive, so... How did he get into Prime universe and why did he recruit Burnham? The mirror universe Emperor couldn't have been his target, as he had no reasonable way back.

[Gallahadd]

And then to restore him it's a simple matter of putting on the magic brain mittens? What?

Those brain mittens were used to fry the implanted "Voq" consciousness. Essentially leaving the modified Voq/Tyler as purely Tyler, hence the funeral cry that L'Rell after the procedure. Although lets face it, if they NEED to find some way to bring him back, they will XD.

On the topic of last nights episode... DAMN, that was good. This show has been on fire since it returned from Mid-season and I can't wait to see how it all wraps up. I totally didn't see the reveal coming; I totally called Voq AND the Emperor... Did NOT see Jason Isaac being, well, Jason Isaac.

One question though: Since he's now essentially the Big Bad of the season, does that mean we're getting a new Captain next season? Possibly either a redeemed Georgio (gods I hope not...), Saru or Michael. Or do you think they'll find some way to keep Lorca around?

[Marsc92]

Regarding the last episode's twist, I wonder.
Lorca couldn't have known they'd end up in the mirror universe when they did; his universe doesn't contain functioning spore drive, so... How did he get into Prime universe and why did he recruit Burnham? The mirror universe Emperor couldn't have been his target, as he had no reasonable way back.

Stametts points out in this episode that the ship never made its final jump (from the mid season finale), in the brief moment you get to see Lorca manually input the co-ordinates, in between the last and second last set of co-ordinates is "lorca override".

Lorca probably knew of mirror stametts accessing the spore network and came to prime universe to find prime stametts so that he could build a spore drive and eventually return him.

[WoWGoneBad]

No, Culber clearly stated that the skeleton showed signs of being shrunk ie a Klingon got his skeleton manipulated to appear as a smaller human.

Ok, after rewatching Eps 12, I have to agree with that. L'Rell reveals as much to Suru. But a question remains......Why would she remove the Voq consciousness from Tyler rather than bring him out fully?

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding the last episode's twist, I wonder.
Lorca couldn't have known they'd end up in the mirror universe when they did; his universe doesn't contain functioning spore drive, so... How did he get into Prime universe and why did he recruit Burnham? The mirror universe Emperor couldn't have been his target, as he had no reasonable way back.

Well one thing to keep in mind is that the Mirror Universe has EVERYTHING the regular universe does so yea they do have spore drive in MU. The MU Stammets even says as much.

With Lorca He went after Burnham for her connection to Gegorioh. I think we may get the reveal that the MU Burnham was actually killed and MU Lorca went to the Reg universe to get our Burnham for a bigger plan. Also remember that Defiants coords were destroyed, who is to say Lorca was not the one to destroy them from the record for later use? when Lorca did the input on the final jump I think he put in the Coords from the Defiant to get back to the MU

[Ivanstone]

Ok, after rewatching Eps 12, I have to agree with that. L'Rell reveals as much to Suru. But a question remains......Why would she remove the Voq consciousness from Tyler rather than bring him out fully?

My guess is that looking like someone else, particularly a human, was driving Voq nuts. The only way to save him was to either disable or submerge Voq's personality so he can at least live a "normal" life.

[Serenais]

Well one thing to keep in mind is that the Mirror Universe has EVERYTHING the regular universe does so yea they do have spore drive in MU. The MU Stammets even says as much.

With Lorca He went after Burnham for her connection to Gegorioh. I think we may get the reveal that the MU Burnham was actually killed and MU Lorca went to the Reg universe to get our Burnham for a bigger plan. Also remember that Defiants coords were destroyed, who is to say Lorca was not the one to destroy them from the record for later use? when Lorca did the input on the final jump I think he put in the Coords from the Defiant to get back to the MU

Well, that would still imply Lorca knows an incredible deal about the spore network, otherwise he wouldn't know that he could get to the mirror universe with it. More than Prime!Stammets, actually, who doesn't seem to know of the possibility to jump cross-universe. That actually in turn implies that Mirror!Stammets is in on Lorca's coup attempt.
Lorca still didn't have to bother with the whole mission up to taking out Kol, though - he could've gone with the Discovery over to the mirror universe once the spore drive was working properly, which was a few episodes before that. He didn't even need to take out Kol, because, the way things go in the Prime universe, crews are usually loyal to their captains unless given a good reason otherwise, as shown in All Good Things, where Youngish!Picard is capable of talking his "new" crew into taking the Enterprise into apparently lethal conditions.
Possibility is that Lorca might just be an anti-hero who tried to do his best the best way he knew in the Prime universe until an oportunity to follow up on his earlier plot presented itself, buuut... That seems a bit farfetched. Then again, for a guy from the mirror universe, he seems a great deal nicer than his fellow Terrans.
I can't believe I just said that about someone played by Jason Isaacs.

[Sorrior]

I agree with the sentiment that this isn't Star Trek.

I wanted a new Star Trek series and I didn't get one. I did however get an incredibly engaging series, one of the first in years where I haven't been content to gather the episodes and binge watch after the series ends; where I eagerly await each episode each week.

Discovery is great Sci-Fi IMO, maybe not everyone's cup of tea but it's definitely mine. Even if it isn't Star Trek

As i put it it is the FFXIII of star trek. A good example of it's genre but not fitting it's namesake and likely would fare better with a new name to start a new series

[WoWGoneBad]

Well, that would still imply Lorca knows an incredible deal about the spore network, otherwise he wouldn't know that he could get to the mirror universe with it. More than Prime!Stammets, actually, who doesn't seem to know of the possibility to jump cross-universe. That actually in turn implies that Mirror!Stammets is in on Lorca's coup attempt.

You need to keep in mind the Mirror/Prime Universe mechancs. Both Lorca's would be working on the Spore Drive design and use. So it could go to the idea that Stammets and Lorca had full working knowledge of the Spore Drive.

Also remember they are Terrans, so while Prime Lorca and Stammets were concerned about the Tartagrade and the effects on him via the Spore Drive, the Mirror Lorca and Stammets have no such compassion and could have pushed their knowledge further. With the cross jump, yes he could have not been expecting it but when life throws you Tribbles, make Tribble stew.


[QUOTE=Serenais;48745639]Lorca still didn't have to bother with the whole mission up to taking out Kol, though - he could've gone with the Discovery over to the mirror universe once the spore drive was working properly, which was a few episodes before that. He didn't even need to take out Kol, because, the way things go in the Prime universe, crews are usually loyal to their captains unless given a good reason otherwise, as shown in All Good Things, where Youngish!Picard is capable of talking his "new" crew into taking the Enterprise into apparently lethal conditions.
Here I think it was more about playing the part until opportunity presented itself. He was genuinely surprised at how the mapping of the universe completed and it was there that he gained opportunity to go back to the Mirror Universe.
[QUOTE=Serenais;48745639]Then again, for a guy from the mirror universe, he seems a great deal nicer than his fellow Terrans.
I can't believe I just said that about someone played by Jason Isaacs.
Perhaps that was the reason he was trying to overthrow the Empire by killing Geogrioh

[Frontenac]

The whole surgery thing is so incredibly contrived. What's the deal with transplanting organs and/or a skeleton, all of which has to be extensively modified on a molecular level with its DNA altered etc. only to then transplant the consciousness into the brain - which they for some reason could not have done without sawing them both into pieces, or what?

And then to restore him it's a simple matter of putting on the magic brain mittens? What?

It is contrived, isn't it? Here is what I understood (but still unsure): L'Rell took DNA from Ash Tyler and implanted it on Voq. Voq became human, but they still need to do some surgery. Some human organs may not have been present in a Klingon body, so they needed transplant. The size may not have matched. The living tissues may now be humans, but the bones could have been too big, so they sawed Voq's bones. Some organs may still have needed to be reshaped. The DNA was human, but the organs needed to be reshaped. Then when all this was done, they transfered Tyler's mind into Voq's brain. Culber said that Ash personality was put over another one. Since it's Voq's brain, Voq's personality should have had no difficulty to reassert itself over the Tyler's personality. However, Tyler was stronger than L'Rell thought.

As for the "magic brain mittens," I believe that L'Rell wanted to eradicate Tyler's personality. But something happened and either Voq is gone or the two personailties merged. L'Rell looks distraught before she screams, so I don't think she intended to kill Voq. Also, during the procedure, Voq is saying a prayer in Klingon, but ends it in English. Tyler would not know any Klingon prayer. That's why I'm inclined to believe the two personalities merged, somehow. For a Klingon supremacist like L'Rell, that fate would be worse than death.

[THEORACLE64]

long live the empror

I surely can't be the only one who thought this was bloody obvious.

[Ivanstone]

Possibility is that Lorca might just be an anti-hero who tried to do his best the best way he knew in the Prime universe until an oportunity to follow up on his earlier plot presented itself, buuut... That seems a bit farfetched. Then again, for a guy from the mirror universe, he seems a great deal nicer than his fellow Terrans.

Smiley O'Brien is much nicer than other Mirror Terrans whilst still being more ruthless than Miles. Mirror Bashir and Jadzia are similarly not as evil. It could be that a century of Terrans being enslaved has made them less shitty as a whole. I still wouldn't necessarily assume that all 23rd Century Terrans are rotten to the core.

[jakeic]

Nothing about the show makes any sense. To start, the main character is named Michael Bernam for some reason. The show starts with a lesson on the prime directive which they then proceed to violate. It then seamlessly flows into weird nazi shiny aliens which for some reason need to turn kahless into kahlesh.

If I go through everything it'll take forever so just some bullet points.

Why does Michael Bernam do anything she does? She wanted to prove herself to be a proud Vulcan in the Vulcan Expeditionary force, but now she's in Starfleet and mentions logic sometimes. It is stated multiple times that she is really great, but everything she does is wrong. She mutinies, she murders the Klingon priest or whatever he was, she saves Tyler, she sleeps with a Klingon, she trusts Lorca, etc. She is an unstoppable wrong machine.

What is Tyler Ash? Why is he what he is? What was supposed to be the point of putting a Klingon, especially one that espouses purity of Klingon, in a human body?

Lorca makes no sense, he sacrfices his entire crew and ship, presumably to help hide the fact that he's fake Lorca, then as a reward is given command of one of the most advanced and powerful ships in the fleet? I'm pretty sure there's an unwritten rule about losing your ship and crew and not receiving another command. Then instead of making his way back to his universe to unfold his plot he continues carrying out his mission from Starfleet, which is highlighted by him both being captured by Klingons and being releaved of command. Must be a good plan.

As a final note, the statmets/culber relationship felt like a mismatch, they didn't seem believable, more Picard/Crusher and less Troi/Riker.

[Serenais]

You need to keep in mind the Mirror/Prime Universe mechancs. Both Lorca's would be working on the Spore Drive design and use. So it could go to the idea that Stammets and Lorca had full working knowledge of the Spore Drive.

Also remember they are Terrans, so while Prime Lorca and Stammets were concerned about the Tartagrade and the effects on him via the Spore Drive, the Mirror Lorca and Stammets have no such compassion and could have pushed their knowledge further. With the cross jump, yes he could have not been expecting it but when life throws you Tribbles, make Tribble stew.

Good point. Do they have a working one, though? Considering how Emperor Georgiou seemed quite interested in it, I'd be willing to speculate that they over-experimented on the tardigrade, killing it in the process. Furthermore, I would say mirror terrans are far less likely to put a human into the same spot in the machinery where the tardigrade was.

Here I think it was more about playing the part until opportunity presented itself. He was genuinely surprised at how the mapping of the universe completed and it was there that he gained opportunity to go back to the Mirror Universe.

That's also a possibility. I have to admit, that didn't occur to me.

Perhaps that was the reason he was trying to overthrow the Empire by killing Geogrioh

Hopefully. It's a shame one way or another, though. Whatever the result, Lorca is unlikely to want to return back to prime universe, and, let's face it, the series would be lesser without him. Jason Isaacs is just phenomenal in the role. x) And while Saru appears competent, I don't think he'd do anyhwere near as well in the leading role as Lorca. Both in-universe and from the point of view of the other side of the screen.

[Deleted]

The one question this show really makes me ask is when is the next season of The Expanse coming out?