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  1. #1581
    Burnham-centric storyline is a bit annoying.
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  2. #1582
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoWGoneBad View Post
    The problem I have with this tech is that they are about what 200ish or so years behind the Red Angel tech, in all that time the Red Angel suit went through ZERO modifications?

    This crew was able to crack the tech in under 2-4 hours(in show time, not ours). I get that it was created by Section 31 but come on......
    They really aren't.

    It's Section 31's suit. From this time period, roughly (a few years/decades earlier, actually). Burnham's parents were the minds behind the tech, working for Section 31. Burnham's mom apparently stole the suit when everything went tits up; we don't know that full story yet. That was one of the big reveals in the last episode.

  3. #1583
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They really aren't.

    It's Section 31's suit. From this time period, roughly (a few years/decades earlier, actually). Burnham's parents were the minds behind the tech, working for Section 31. Burnham's mom apparently stole the suit when everything went tits up; we don't know that full story yet. That was one of the big reveals in the last episode.
    Yeah I get that part that Section 31 buit the suit, but Discovery had little of knowledge of the tech involved and it is higher than what they currently know. I guess between the scenes they could have given a full brief of all the tech, but to have ALL they need in one convient spot ready for one precise strike is a bit.....much.

    I got everyting about the reveal and it was predictable, but not blatantly obvious which I liked. I will wait out the story to see how it goes.

  4. #1584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    Oh yeah? Just because the story changed at the end of the latest episode?
    I watched it alright, just because the story was changed doesn't change the fact that the story WAS about her being the red angel, so my post was correct.
    This makes zero sense.

  5. #1585
    The only thing that bugs me with time travel stories such as this, is the entire thing is normally completely avoidable at the expense of drama. For example, Burnhams mum comes back to save her, ok that's fine, but there's no reason she had to actually let her die in screaming agony (although that was fun), she could have come back to any point and said, "dont do it, here I am".

    Also, somewhat amusingly, as they were wrong about burnham being the red angel, it meant that their whole premise of "she has to be saved else future angel will not exist" was wrong. So really they were kinda lucky someone did turn up.

  6. #1586
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezmon View Post
    The only thing that bugs me with time travel stories such as this, is the entire thing is normally completely avoidable at the expense of drama. For example, Burnhams mum comes back to save her, ok that's fine, but there's no reason she had to actually let her die in screaming agony (although that was fun), she could have come back to any point and said, "dont do it, here I am".
    This is why Spock pulled a phaser on the medical team. If they saved Burnham, then Burnham wouldn't die, and Burnham would still be around in the future for whatever purpose the Red Angel needs her for. They HAD to let her really, actually die, beyond their capacity to save her, or the plan couldn't ever work.

    Once there was a timeline established where Burnham died, the Red Angel had reason to pop back to the point of death to rewrite that moment, which is what we saw.

    Also, somewhat amusingly, as they were wrong about burnham being the red angel, it meant that their whole premise of "she has to be saved else future angel will not exist" was wrong. So really they were kinda lucky someone did turn up.
    Yes. They tried to engage time-travel paradox as the engine driving things, and turned out to be completely wrong about everything. The Red Angel showed up for different reasons.

    This also challenges the idea that Burnham is the most specialest person in the universe that people keep throwing around; she's not the Red Angel, she's not the one saving the universe, Spock is the one doing that more than she is, her only real purpose has been to get Spock back on track. The Red Angel is only protecting Burnham because it's her mom in that suit; it has nothing to do with the greater threat, really. One advantage of time travel is you've got time for everything; taking a few minutes to save a loved one doesn't take any time away from the greater plan.

  7. #1587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is why Spock pulled a phaser on the medical team. If they saved Burnham, then Burnham wouldn't die, and Burnham would still be around in the future for whatever purpose the Red Angel needs her for. They HAD to let her really, actually die, beyond their capacity to save her, or the plan couldn't ever work.

    Once there was a timeline established where Burnham died, the Red Angel had reason to pop back to the point of death to rewrite that moment, which is what we saw.



    Yes. They tried to engage time-travel paradox as the engine driving things, and turned out to be completely wrong about everything. The Red Angel showed up for different reasons.

    This also challenges the idea that Burnham is the most specialest person in the universe that people keep throwing around; she's not the Red Angel, she's not the one saving the universe, Spock is the one doing that more than she is, her only real purpose has been to get Spock back on track. The Red Angel is only protecting Burnham because it's her mom in that suit; it has nothing to do with the greater threat, really. One advantage of time travel is you've got time for everything; taking a few minutes to save a loved one doesn't take any time away from the greater plan.
    Michael Burnham can still be the Red Angel. She could take the suit for herself. Nothing prevents Mommy Burnham to take the suit to keep Burnham safe (when she was lost on Vulcan, or on the asteroid in the first episode, etc.) and then Michael could take it to save the Kelpians on Kaminar or other stuff. The other advantage of time travel is that causality is in shambles. What the consequence can happen before the cause.
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  8. #1588
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is why Spock pulled a phaser on the medical team. If they saved Burnham, then Burnham wouldn't die, and Burnham would still be around in the future for whatever purpose the Red Angel needs her for. They HAD to let her really, actually die, beyond their capacity to save her, or the plan couldn't ever work.

    Once there was a timeline established where Burnham died, the Red Angel had reason to pop back to the point of death to rewrite that moment, which is what we saw.
    I agree Burnham had to die at some point in the timeline (which is also why their initial plan of "we'll just pull her out if it gets too sketchy" was nonsense), but from the POV of the angel, she already died and as such the angel can go back to any point in the timeline to stop it happening. Like if I want to go back in time to stop Senna dieing in that crash, I go back to before the crash, not after and then revive him. But, of course, this is the problem with time travel storylines, things get a bit wonky.

  9. #1589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezmon View Post
    I agree Burnham had to die at some point in the timeline (which is also why their initial plan of "we'll just pull her out if it gets too sketchy" was nonsense), but from the POV of the angel, she already died and as such the angel can go back to any point in the timeline to stop it happening. Like if I want to go back in time to stop Senna dieing in that crash, I go back to before the crash, not after and then revive him. But, of course, this is the problem with time travel storylines, things get a bit wonky.
    It's also where we discuss "could" and "did".

    The Red Angel could have shown up before they popped the vents on Burnham, but didn't. Why? Ask her.

    But yes; time travel stories are generally wonky because we, the viewers, still experience linear time. If you want to melt your brain properly, go watch a film called Primer. It takes most people a few watchthroughs and some literal note-taking to start to make sense of the interwoven timelines.

  10. #1590
    I was RIGHT!!!!!!!!

    This is the birth of the borg and this episode just PROVED it!!! and that is just the first 4 minutes. Nanites injected into the body, for complete control.

    Leeland taking phaser shots and not stopping, he was able to control the transfer on the ground, to transport to the ship,

    We have just seen the First Borg Drone.
    Last edited by WoWGoneBad; 2019-03-29 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #1591
    Can anyone fill me in how Burnham's mother came into possession of a time travelling EVA suit? She just casually puts it on. I really must have missed that, I even checked if I saw all episodes.

  12. #1592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    Can anyone fill me in how Burnham's mother came into possession of a time travelling EVA suit? She just casually puts it on. I really must have missed that, I even checked if I saw all episodes.
    She literally invented it. That's been a major part of the last two episodes. She and Burnham's dad were scientists working on that project, for Section 31, in secret.

  13. #1593
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    Star Trek: Discovery focuses on character progression more than any other Star Trek series ever made. It worked well in the newer movies.

    So far from the episodes, we have gotten to know nearly every core member of Discovery, the show has succeeded in that goal...

    I enjoy season 2 allot more, compared to season 1. There really is an amazing quality to the show, I feel like watching a continuous high end movie.

    I believe we are seeing the birth of The Borg.

    At some point I feel like Burnham will fling Control into the past and at a far point away from the federation, that eventually the history of the Borg makes sense. She will need to effectually reboot Control to its basic functions, where past memory storage of events are erased from its system. Only then will the cold ego of the Borg truly form, left in isolation in the Delta Quadrant to evolve.

    Unfortunately that action will lead to millions of sentients being assimilated into the Borg in the Delta quadrant.

    In the latest episode the fact that Control assimilates the Section 31 leader with nanites of its making definetly points to the Borg, since they use similar methods when assimilating their subjects.
    “Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.”

  14. #1594
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoWGoneBad View Post
    I was RIGHT!!!!!!!!

    This is the birth of the borg and this episode just PROVED it!!! and that is just the first 4 minutes. Nanites injected into the body, for complete control.

    Leeland taking phaser shots and not stopping, he was able to control the transfer on the ground, to transport to the ship,

    We have just seen the First Borg Drone.
    Except that we know the Borg's history goes back thousands of years. That canon's established in both TNG and Voyager.

    The only way Control becomes the Borg is if the final resolution here involves kicking them way, way back in time and space. Since we've got time travel in the mix, that's possible, but I'll suggest it's at least equally likely that Control has been infected by the already-extant Borg somehow, and has become a tool of theirs, making use of some of their technological ideas. That would make Control the Federation's first real encounter with the Borg, though they may not realize what the greater threat is for a couple centuries (the TNG era).

  15. #1595
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    She literally invented it. That's been a major part of the last two episodes. She and Burnham's dad were scientists working on that project, for Section 31, in secret.
    Really? No idea how I could have missed that.

    So if it was even man made, then why doesn't the Temporal Integrity Commission interfere and prevent all changes of the timeline, starting from saving Michael in the woods?

  16. #1596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    Really? No idea how I could have missed that.

    So if it was even man made, then why doesn't the Temporal Integrity Commission interfere and prevent all changes of the timeline, starting from saving Michael in the woods?
    Double checked, the Temporal Cold War covers the 21st through 31st Centuries.

    ST: Discovery is set in the 2250s, and they said she's being kicked 950 years into the future, which would be ~3200, at the cusp of the 33rd Century.

    Her end-point is outside their scope, and her action may be a critical part of the timeline they deem as "normal". The future she was kicked into may be an aberrant one that she prevents. Given that it's a future where all sentient life is exterminated, I can see why they might let her prevent it.

  17. #1597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Except that we know the Borg's history goes back thousands of years. That canon's established in both TNG and Voyager.

    The only way Control becomes the Borg is if the final resolution here involves kicking them way, way back in time and space. Since we've got time travel in the mix, that's possible, but I'll suggest it's at least equally likely that Control has been infected by the already-extant Borg somehow, and has become a tool of theirs, making use of some of their technological ideas. That would make Control the Federation's first real encounter with the Borg, though they may not realize what the greater threat is for a couple centuries (the TNG era).
    lol I just mentioned that in my post above.

    I believe that ...somehow, the only way to avoid Control being an inter dimensional time-traveling assimilating, apocalyptic omnipotent being, is to lock it down inside a time bubble, using the time crystal (super nova keeps popping up in script), and as far away from everything and everyone as possible (a Super Nova in Delta Quadrant used to make that time crystal for the prison)

    In fact Control could be the inter dimensional leader of the Borg, directing its nanites from its prison cell and leading the Borg to assimilate the universe. The repeated attempts by the Borg to time travel would demonstrate Controls knowledge being used.

    Edit: To make sense though, if Control still retained all the knowledge of the Sphere and remained imprisoned, the extent of communication with its nanites in the real world would be minimal, only capable of directing the Borg towards hints of goals. Control could be the de facto "God" of the Borg, always distant, ever present, its influence small, but over eons, it points the Borg in the right direction.

    I blab....
    Last edited by Themerlin; 2019-03-29 at 03:39 PM.
    “Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.”

  18. #1598
    I facepalmed at the end, why would they not nuke fucking "Leland's" ship, cutting off his only way out and destroying the stolen sphere data plus the Control's system corruption?
    Last edited by Hextor; 2019-03-29 at 03:59 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  19. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Double checked, the Temporal Cold War covers the 21st through 31st Centuries.

    ST: Discovery is set in the 2250s, and they said she's being kicked 950 years into the future, which would be ~3200, at the cusp of the 33rd Century.

    Her end-point is outside their scope, and her action may be a critical part of the timeline they deem as "normal". The future she was kicked into may be an aberrant one that she prevents. Given that it's a future where all sentient life is exterminated, I can see why they might let her prevent it.
    The temporal cold war is just a conflict that took place somewhen. It has nothing to do with the existence of the agency that is protecting the original timeline, nowhere it says that it would stop existing after the cold war. Especially after the war having control over the timeline would make sense to prevent another war. Apart from the fact that "before" and "after" hardly have any meaning if you have access to time travel.

    And if they agree that the future would be so bad without a change of the timeline, why not do it themselves in a controlled environment than relying on some random eperiment that already cost many lives (and therfor already has drastically changed the timeline)? It's just another thing they did not think through, or cared about. Not necessarily now, but when they introduced such an institution in voy and ent. But they made it canon.

  20. #1600
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Except that we know the Borg's history goes back thousands of years. That canon's established in both TNG and Voyager.

    The only way Control becomes the Borg is if the final resolution here involves kicking them way, way back in time and space. Since we've got time travel in the mix, that's possible, but I'll suggest it's at least equally likely that Control has been infected by the already-extant Borg somehow, and has become a tool of theirs, making use of some of their technological ideas. That would make Control the Federation's first real encounter with the Borg, though they may not realize what the greater threat is for a couple centuries (the TNG era).
    I get that, and it has been established that this is in Prime Canon. But come on..... Leeland takes phaser blasts and regenerates effortlessly, superhuman strength, can use computers without interacting with them, able to communicate with the ship to transport....... Control wanting to Evolve

    Control: I am in a holographic form indistinguishable from any biological entity I choose to represent.
    Borg: We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
    Control: There are 7000 ships in Starfleet, all reliant on the chain of command. That chain unquestioned, unbroken, unseen every instruction passed down through channels. In time even those who do not follow my agenda willingy.... will.
    Borg: Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”
    Control: I require a body to allow me to freely operate.
    Borg: Inject nanites.
    Control: Injects Leeland with Nanites.


    You cannot get any further from the truth than that......

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