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  1. #1681
    Well, the ship would be useless without Stamets to run the drive and Saru's leadership. Burnham the selfless hero gets really annoying after a while.

    This season was carried by Georgiou, Pike, Tyler, Saru and Spock. They have arguably the best actors.
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  2. #1682
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    No but the show should - like I wrote be a Burnham show - ST TOS work because it was a Trio and it had episodes where the crew got lore and backgrounds, same for tng
    In STD all you get is ONE person who is important and the rest is replaceable....
    You do understand that DeForest Kelley was not main cast initially on TOS right? Shatner was the lead actor, Nimoy was the supporting actor. There was no trio. This was amended later but it certainly was not how it worked in the beginning.

    The lead characters on the ST shows were Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer. People constantly calling them "Captain" would lead one to believe their part of a team but they got more than story time than anyone. DSC also utilizes a different story structure and has much shorter seasons.

    As for other DSC crew? Saru probably had more character development than Burnham. Voq/Tyler and L'rell got loads as well. Burnham seems like she got more but it was shackled to existing characters so familiar fans were already spoonfed half her story to begin with. Stamets, Tilly, Culber, Lorca, Georgiou and Cornwell still got some time even in abbreviated seasons.

  3. #1683
    Quote Originally Posted by Hextor View Post
    What kind of a stupid plan is this... lying about what happened to the Discovery - is the Starfleet Command full of idiots or pursuing a hidden agenda?
    Welcome to Discovery, where shitty fan fiction level writing prevails.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  4. #1684
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    Welcome to Discovery, where shitty fan fiction level writing prevails.
    That level of writing is pretty bog-standard for Star Trek overall.

    The entire concept of the Prime Directive is so colossally stupid that nearly every Star Trek story that involves it, involves a Captain ignoring it because it's horrible and wrong and stupid as fuck. And yet, still the Prime Directive.

    Star Trek is not high science fiction. It's a step above pure space opera, but it's not that high a step. TNG seems a lot more deep than it deserved to be seen because it lucked into some top-shelf stage actors for most of its main cast, and they were able to bring gravitas to the silly writing.

  5. #1685
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    ST TOS work because it was a Trio and it had episodes where the crew got lore and backgrounds, same for tng
    We’ve had more than one episode about Vork, one of the best episodes thus season focused on Saru, a few about Stamets, whether it be about the Spore Drive or his love life, we’ve had a bunch about Tilly (best character) and we kinda got one about Robo girl, before she got taken over by control.

    Burnham is the “lead” so the episodes are usually from her POV, but the focus of the episodes have varied wildly.
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  6. #1686
    Just finished catching up on season 2. I'm sure that Michael being the center of literally everything has been done to death by now, so I'll leave that alone. It's finished, and hopefully they can move on.

    Something else I hope they move on from is the score. I know this isn't the type of show to have the sound design consist of nothing but the ship's engine noise over dialogue and the occasional console beep (like they did for TNG and Voyager), but I really wish they'd tone down the overbearing music.

    Overall I thought it was a pretty decent season. As silly as the wrap-up may be (with them basically classifying the whole mess), it did at least give them a way out that seemed plausible. The fan service was nice, honestly. Showed that they either took some of the feedback to heart or at least recognized the mistakes made by departing too far from the established Trek stuff after the first season.

  7. #1687
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That level of writing is pretty bog-standard for Star Trek overall.

    The entire concept of the Prime Directive is so colossally stupid that nearly every Star Trek story that involves it, involves a Captain ignoring it because it's horrible and wrong and stupid as fuck. And yet, still the Prime Directive.

    Star Trek is not high science fiction. It's a step above pure space opera, but it's not that high a step. TNG seems a lot more deep than it deserved to be seen because it lucked into some top-shelf stage actors for most of its main cast, and they were able to bring gravitas to the silly writing.
    The level of mental gymnastics that it would take to thrash the whole Star trek legacy as a defense to help elevate the shit show that is STD to a decent place?.. Checking just a few of your comments on this thread alone, you need an award.

  8. #1688
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    The level of mental gymnastics that it would take to thrash the whole Star trek legacy as a defense to help elevate the shit show that is STD to a decent place?.. Checking just a few of your comments on this thread alone, you need an award.
    Star Trek's legacy is largely in its mass appeal and progressive politics. It's important, and I'm not arguing that it's not good TV, I am simply pointing out it is, fundamentally, a serial. A higher-quality Flash Gordon, rather than literature that could stand with novels like Foundation, or Dune. There is a difference between recognizing societal influence, and thinking it's storytelling and world building is complex and advanced.

  9. #1689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    I'm just gonna gloat over everyone who shat over me for saying that this is Michael Burnham show. Would you look at that, you've all been wrong and she IS the red angel.
    And now she's gonna be captain of Discovery 900 years in the future.
    The Michael Burnham Show.
    Star Trek was pretty much the James T. Kirk show. I don't mind it if the show is good, and so far I like Discovery.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  10. #1690
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    ..your opinion...
    You clearly watch any ST besides STD have you?
    STD in a Nutshell aka facts:
    #1 Someone: We got a Problem
    #2 Burnham: I fix it!
    #3 Burnham fixes it
    repeat.

  11. #1691
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Star Trek's legacy is largely in its mass appeal and progressive politics. It's important, and I'm not arguing that it's not good TV, I am simply pointing out it is, fundamentally, a serial. A higher-quality Flash Gordon, rather than literature that could stand with novels like Foundation, or Dune. There is a difference between recognizing societal influence, and thinking it's storytelling and world building is complex and advanced.
    This really. The older star treks had it so much easier honestly, up until the internet allowed people to dissect every single little thing about the shows that they personally don't like and start creating social wagon trains of hate about them. I'm not saying Voyager or Enterprise were gold standards, so don't misinterpret, but I also don't think they're as horrible as alot of people let on. I still enjoy watching episodes of each because I don't sit and stew on things I personally wouldn't have preferred about them.

  12. #1692
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    You clearly watch any ST besides STD have you?
    STD in a Nutshell aka facts:
    #1 Someone: We got a Problem
    #2 Burnham: I fix it!
    #3 Burnham fixes it
    repeat.
    I watched the whole thing. I didn't fast forward through the parts where Saru/Tilly/Stamets/Tyler/Lorca/Cornwell/Reno/Culber/Pike/Spock did stuff.

  13. #1693
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I watched the whole thing. I didn't fast forward through the parts where Saru/Tilly/Stamets/Tyler/Lorca/Cornwell/Reno/Culber/Pike/Spock did stuff.
    For real. It's such a dumb criticism that just keeps getting dumber tbh. In point of fact it's usually that group of people fixing things FOR Burnham at this point.

  14. #1694
    there still is so many plot holes. lets start with child spock seeing the 7 signals...burnham never went to child spock, and the show already indicated it was momma mary-sue who engaged with child spock. momma mary-sue never knew about the 7 signals. so how did child spock ever know about them? why arent starfleet ships made entirely out of blast doors? a torpedo took out 1/3 of the saucer section but the blast door mere feet away was nothing. with a window no less. (even if the window was the fabled transparent aluminum from star trek 4, its still only aluminum) how did the kelpian society become so adept at piloting ships? they were basically a bronze age society suppressed by a technologically superior race. It took Saru years of training in starfleet and existing as a refugee before hand to be where he is, so this doesnt make sense. its like a period less than 6 months. (if you want to factor in actual travel times at warp speeds between systems) section 31 aka control, also knows how to detect cloaked ships, so how did the klingon cleave ship manage to ram into a sect, 31 ship? why was gravity shifting only in that one corridor wioth control, Georgiou, and the other person. why is Georgiou so kind and maternal in this season? shes literally space hitler. we dont see her true self until shes happy seeing control nanites seep out of that one dudes body, in extreme pain and suffereing. how did spocks parents know where to go, after Discovery spore drives away from where they were, when section 31 fleet literally surrounds them. also how did the Enterprise get through and not intercepted? they were literally being surrounded, from every direction, even if Enterprise is the fastest ship in the fleet aside form spire travel, Control would have easily intercepted Enterprise at some vector of attempted escape. its a literal strategic computer, a very bad one. its job would have been to destabilize the warp field and/or damage a warp nacel, until the other ships caught up. this doesnt make sense. this should have been a kobiashi maru scenario for the enterprise trying to simply reach the rendezvous point. also when Disco spore drived away from the section 31 signal jamming, why did it not immediately send out a distress call to the rest of the federation for help? also how did the kelpians and klingons know where this rendezvous point was? sect 31 knew, because the sporatically intelligent strategic computer would know, based purely on Enterprises initial trajectory, along with all of its fleet using long range sensors to focus its search to re-find Discovery.

    none of this makes sense in the end. I'd rather watch slow mo fighting of kirk and a Gorn again. its more believable

  15. #1695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    For real. It's such a dumb criticism that just keeps getting dumber tbh. In point of fact it's usually that group of people fixing things FOR Burnham at this point.
    Also, the whole "she's the most specialest person in the show" takes a bit of a nosedive as an argument when;

    1> Saru is the only member of his species to leave his home planet, and the only one to pass through their "coming-of-age" without being killed by their oppressor species.
    2> Stamets is literally the only way the spore drive works by a few episodes into S1.
    3> Tilly is presented as monumentally brilliant, one of the smartest people in Starfleet, way more so than Burnham. Tilly has also had unique relationships with multiple individuals who were absolutely critical for the show's progression.
    4> Tyler isn't just a major Klingon political figure, he also had a romance with their current political leader, and has a child with her.
    5> Spock and Pike both carry massive legacies from the earlier shows.
    6> Culber literally died and came back.

    The whole crew is "special". Burnham's just tied to the season arc, whereas everyone else gets a lot more focus in episode arcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by hynx View Post
    there still is so many plot holes.

    ...

    none of this makes sense in the end. I'd rather watch slow mo fighting of kirk and a Gorn again. its more believable
    Dude, have you never watched Star Trek before? It's wildly inconsistent and contains so many plot holes its narrative fabric is more of some kind of lace. You can make similar analyses for pretty much any Star Trek show, even TOS and TNG.

  16. #1696
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Also, the whole "she's the most specialest person in the show" takes a bit of a nosedive as an argument when;
    [...]
    The whole crew is "special". Burnham's just tied to the season arc, whereas everyone else gets a lot more focus in episode arcs.
    Here's the thing. The fact that she's the one they turn to to technobabble their way out of 8/10 situations is only compounded by the fact that she's basically portrayed as the Chosen One throughout the season. If it had been one or the other, it would have been much less egregious. At least when Data was doing the whole "living encyclopedia of literally all technical expertise" thing, he was actually a living encyclopedia of literally all technical expertise...

  17. #1697
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Star Trek is not high science fiction. It's a step above pure space opera, but it's not that high a step. TNG seems a lot more deep than it deserved to be seen because it lucked into some top-shelf stage actors for most of its main cast, and they were able to bring gravitas to the silly writing.
    This doesn't get pointed out enough, imo. TNG took itself fairly seriously a lot of the time, and is certainly regarded as such by many fans - but in reality there's like a dozen or so brilliant episodes, and a whole lot of gunk passed off as pâté through the efforts of the admittedly stunning cast. DS9 has much more consistent writing, albeit with fewer really high points (though personally "In the Pale Moonlight" is still my #1 favorite ST episode). And neither is really at the level of high-quality science fiction, most of which is not ever going to make it to a screen because it doesn't have mass market appeal.

    In a way, DIS is just a natural evolution of the franchise - with the caveat that they had the choice of setting, and decided to go back rather than forward. In terms of action and character-focused drama etc. it's pretty much in the prevailing paradigm of contemporary TV. It doesn't do anything radically new in its conceptualization or structure. All they innovated on is design and decor, really. As was rightly pointed out, the Prime Directive only ever existed to be broken in the first place, or that's how it looks like anyway. Not a huge shocker - "okay, let's not get involved and continue our cartography mission instead" does not for good ratings make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    literature that could stand with novels like Foundation, or Dune.
    To be fair, both Foundation and Dune drifted off into silliness later on :P They start out as amazing SF milestones, and end with jumping one cosmic shark after another. Let's just pretend the final books don't exist, and we're good.

  18. #1698
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    For real. It's such a dumb criticism that just keeps getting dumber tbh. In point of fact it's usually that group of people fixing things FOR Burnham at this point.
    Yeah...it is dumb when you have to pretend reality isn't so because it doesn't fit your narrative!

    Burnham does almost everything...the galaxy revolves around her, she is even more important to Spock's parents then he was. They showed up in the finale worrying all about her and barely seemed to give a fuck about Spock at all.

    Burnham gets away with whatever she wants...she talks back and often ignores Pike's orders and yet she never even gets a verbal reprimand.

    Burnham is the center of the universe....I'm willing to bet Momma Burnham is really future Michael Burnham....only someone as special as Michael Burnham could create Micheal Burnham....after all the test they did on her said the red angel was Michael Burnham...not to mention supposedly the suit was created by Momma Burnham alone....and Michael was able to replicate a new suit so easily.

    Saddens me these people who have never watched Star Trek before need to lie about it so much just so they can fit their circle Discovery through the square hole of Star Trek.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  19. #1699
    The last episode broke the "most plothole in a single episode" world record. It was so dumb my brain still hurts

    A klingon armada "forgets" the Discovery. Half the saucer blows up but the door holds. Spock can be saved by teleporting him but fuck Admiral Cornwell, let her die. Suicide door lock only inside the room. The most powerful shields in the Star Trek history, 30+ battleship and thousands of drones manage to bring it down to 40% in a 1 hour long fight. Star ships turned into carriers. Hitting and kicking the instantly regenerating half robot main villain for 30 min because that will hurt him. Hand combat with a super intelligent half robot who could react in nanoseconds, who could calculate your every move and who said 1 episode ago: "i can reach you and break your metacarpal in 0.8 seconds if you move". Conveniently working super suit not allowing the interface to work, because she has to go to the past first. Main villain killed by... magnets. The threat is dead but they don't stop because... they need season 3. The literally klingon and loyal to the klingon chancellor Tyler is named to the head of the military shadow organisation, because... they need a new spin off show. Everything ever Burnham does....

    And that's just from the top of my head, im sure digging into it would make the list 10 times longer.

    And all the whining jesus fucking christ. The episode could be 20 min shorter if they cut every "Burnham switching from bitchface to cryface" scene.

    Which reminds me: that's the only 2 face the actress can make... and every good actor's contract ended with this season. We will be stuck with her and her (conveniently) perfectly diverse crew... this will be a shitshow. Please just end this and stop desecrating my childhood.

  20. #1700
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Also, the whole "she's the most specialest person in the show" takes a bit of a nosedive as an argument when;

    1> Saru is the only member of his species to leave his home planet, and the only one to pass through their "coming-of-age" without being killed by their oppressor species.
    2> Stamets is literally the only way the spore drive works by a few episodes into S1.
    3> Tilly is presented as monumentally brilliant, one of the smartest people in Starfleet, way more so than Burnham. Tilly has also had unique relationships with multiple individuals who were absolutely critical for the show's progression.
    4> Tyler isn't just a major Klingon political figure, he also had a romance with their current political leader, and has a child with her.
    5> Spock and Pike both carry massive legacies from the earlier shows.
    6> Culber literally died and came back.

    The whole crew is "special". Burnham's just tied to the season arc, whereas everyone else gets a lot more focus in episode arcs.



    Dude, have you never watched Star Trek before? It's wildly inconsistent and contains so many plot holes its narrative fabric is more of some kind of lace. You can make similar analyses for pretty much any Star Trek show, even TOS and TNG.
    the other Star trek shows are far from perfect, but this show is hole after hole that combine to make a bigger plot holes than before, they are black (plot) holes that only continue to grow in size and its destructive force. the only other trek show i can think of with a full isolated season of a continuity story telling is Enterprise with its Xindi story arc, and yes it had holes that didnt make sense either but they didnt snowball and grow, and create even more problems on a the same scale, not even close. and a lot of people who are currently hating the show, because it does in fact shit on lore, could of gotten away with so much more, had it simply taken place AFTER the events of Voyager, or even Nemesis, and not attempt to cash in on Nostalgia lore, for old fans liek they did with Spock and Pike. a lot of the aesthetic would have made more sense too, that many fans of the older iterations were complaining about. It also would have explained the more militaristic approach season 1 employed, because of the events of the Dominion war, and lastly the very concept of super fast travel using the spore drive, would have made so much more sense having taken place AFTER voyager. TNG had experience with going way faster than the hypothetical warp 10 barrier, with "The Traveler" episode, they had a little bit of experience with the Borg's transwarp hub, DS9's various ships would have extensive data scans of the one wormhole, along with the Cardasians working with DS9 to make am artificial wormhole, and then there is Voyager...Voyager broke the hypothetical warp 10 barrier through conventional means, their experience with the USS Equinox, a slower ship was able to catch up to Voyager despite both arriving in the delta quadrant at similar times; and was able to modify its warp engines and harvest alien corpses as unconventional warp fuel, the information they gained traveling using "underspace" in the ancient Vaaduar sectors, the sensor data they gained simply by traveling through the Borg transwarp hub, Tom Paris' gaining knowledge of the "crumple" Coaxial warp drive, B'elanna Torres installing and burning out a borg transwarp coil, and lastly (and the most important one) Voyager modifying their warp engine to create a quantum slipdrive, which was capable of traveling significantly faster that its top warp speed. after the events on the episode that utilized it, and getting a message about its disaster, they only decomissioned the quantum drive, they didnt abandon the project altogether. when they got home, i guarantee that tech was studied deeply, along with all teh other methods of travel Voyager had info over, and likely proper R&D and theoretical study was implemented of quantum slips stream, before being implemented fully by the federation. Voyager (and a little of the other shows) brought so much information after new forms of FTL travel, and the spore drive being cited on the Discovery show as "an organic transwarp network" it would make sense to have that kind of tech come to fruition after Voyager/Nemesis. but they chose to do a prequel show instead. that was one of its biggest failing points. it had potential, but just pissed most everyone of the old shows, off instead.

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