(TV) Star Trek: Discovery

[Myradin]

hahah - watching the wrong show =D

Waaayyy to many characters on the show have plot-armor. That regardless of how stupid or deadly the situation is, they end up surviving - somehow.

I think they actually get WORSE with this in Season 3. Last "character I recognized" that died was somewhere in Season 2. But Season 3 plot-finales setup multiple extremely deadly situations, that end up not having any consequences for anyone.

Now I'm not blaming the show for that. Trek and "red shirts" is a meme for a reason. And I don't really normally mind plot armor. But still - at times the plot seems to go out of its way to setup a beyond-survivable situation (vs. just a very dangerous one) only to have everyone be just fine at the end.

But get use to the "We may never see each other again - all the emotions" - "Nah we all good!" Just accept it. Its easier that way.

Indeed. Just imagine if someone Stamitz cared about actually died after Burnham tossed him off the ship. They seem to want a lot of character drama, why not make choices actually do something? Why waste 20+ minutes of an episode on goodbyes and tears if everyone just comes back safe the next ep?

Instead he's either going to forget about it in season 4, or be overly grumpy about it despite everyone surviving in the end.

Honestly Stamitz's role in the show is kinda declining, given how they have a 2nd 'spore pilot' as well as another expert on the spore drive. Tilly also has mentioned using dark matter somehow to skip needing a pilot twice now and the show hasn't gone anywhere with that.

[Fantomen]

What if a species who genetically modified itself wanted to join the federation. Would they not be allowed?

DS9 take it up, Bashir was genetic modified to be a "super-human" he was not guilty to it, and is part of the frederation. But his parents was punished for the crime of modify there child. So if a species who genetically modified itself, need to give up ther habit to be able to join.

Not frederation do allow genetically modifications to cure serious genetic diseases.

[Biomega]

Its kinda weird how rare genetic engineering is among other species, same with AI's.

What if a species who genetically modified itself wanted to join the federation. Would they not be allowed?

AI is what ST:P is about, pretty much. And there's strong AI elements in earlier shows as well such as Data and The Doctor.

Genetic engineering is one of those things that the ST universe has a bit of a blind spot for. Most of it got handwaved away with the Eugenics Wars (and subsequent related storylines like the Klingon augments) but in realistic terms advanced civilizations would probably do a LOT with this.

"Light" forms of genetic engineering do happen, even in the Federation - some of the medical technobabble for example hints at that. But profound, species-altering GE is not really done by many species. Exceptions include the Suliban from ENT (who got it from the future), and the Dominion (who don't seem to do it much beyond the Vorta/Jem'Hadar and punishments like the Quickening).

There isn't really a very satisfactory explanation. I suspect it's just one of those things ST doesn't deal with, or at least didn't in its original/early/intermediate conceptions and so it's hard to integrate now. Lots of possible explanations of course, but they usually feel very contrived - universally outlawed due to its dangers (Eugenics Wars, basically), unstable/unreliable, philosophical/ethical objections, etc. None of those really seem that convincing.

[Kellorion]

For the love of God would someone order Burmham to non optional counseling?!

[Myradin]

AI is what ST:P is about, pretty much. And there's strong AI elements in earlier shows as well such as Data and The Doctor.

Genetic engineering is one of those things that the ST universe has a bit of a blind spot for. Most of it got handwaved away with the Eugenics Wars (and subsequent related storylines like the Klingon augments) but in realistic terms advanced civilizations would probably do a LOT with this.

"Light" forms of genetic engineering do happen, even in the Federation - some of the medical technobabble for example hints at that. But profound, species-altering GE is not really done by many species. Exceptions include the Suliban from ENT (who got it from the future), and the Dominion (who don't seem to do it much beyond the Vorta/Jem'Hadar and punishments like the Quickening).

There isn't really a very satisfactory explanation. I suspect it's just one of those things ST doesn't deal with, or at least didn't in its original/early/intermediate conceptions and so it's hard to integrate now. Lots of possible explanations of course, but they usually feel very contrived - universally outlawed due to its dangers (Eugenics Wars, basically), unstable/unreliable, philosophical/ethical objections, etc. None of those really seem that convincing.

In terms of AI's I mean outside of human/federation made synths. Data and the Doctor are both human creations.

ST:P has a line from the romulans about "have you ever wondered why romulans don't have AI's?" or something to the sort, and my reaction was pretty much "Same reason 95% of the galaxy doesn't seem to use AIs?"

[Fencers]

About 4 episodes into Disco S3, I love the premise!

[Beloren]

About 4 episodes into Disco S3, I love the premise!

Yeh. So did I.

It was fantastical and almost romantic, like a true adventure on a far distant world and place.

And the effects were really high quality. Loved the Booker / Burnham dynamic. It just had me going wow.

[Beloren]

S3 Burnham was the fave Burnham. She felt way more.... human, I guess? She does more smiling, at least, that's good.

I liked her hair too. I didn't hate the earlier versions of her, but this was the best one of her to date.

[Fencers]

Captain Pike, the best-written character on the show thus far, aside- I think the writing for each of the individual characters is much stronger in season 3 than in previous seasons. I too like this version of Burnham a lot more than in previous seasons. As far as I am concerned the less made of Burnham's "Vulcan upbringing" the better because it is so at odds with her actions throughout the show. That was a dumb decision.

Season 1 was the weakest by far. Moving the ship into the future and updating the tech was a very smart move. I also think the central plotline of S3 is genuinely more intriguing and a better stage for interpersonal drama.

Like I just finished up the episode of S3 where Burham and Phillipa bust Booker out of the salvage camp. The entire arc over that episode was terrific. Admiral Vance was totally and logically in the right. His reasoning from the strat was absolutely sound and they used that to present a cool/risky adventure while following-up on the consequence of that adventure in a manner consistent with the motives. That was just great.

I think Vance and Saru totally made the right decision.

This is still the most insubordinate crew of any Trek show in my opinion though. None of these people do what they are told and they protest just about every command.

[Beloren]

Captain Pike, the best-written character on the show thus far, aside- I think the writing for each of the individual characters is much stronger in season 3 than in previous seasons. I too like this version of Burnham a lot more than in previous seasons. As far as I am concerned the less made of Burnham's "Vulcan upbringing" the better because it is so at odds with her actions throughout the show. That was a dumb decision.

Season 1 was the weakest by far. Moving the ship into the future and updating the tech was a very smart move. I also think the central plotline of S3 is genuinely more intriguing and a better stage for interpersonal drama.

Like I just finished up the episode of S3 where Burham and Phillipa bust Booker out of the salvage camp. The entire arc over that episode was terrific. Admiral Vance was totally and logically in the right. His reasoning from the strat was absolutely sound and they used that to present a cool/risky adventure while following-up on the consequence of that adventure in a manner consistent with the motives. That was just great.

I think Vance and Saru totally made the right decision.

This is still the most insubordinate crew of any Trek show in my opinion though. None of these people do what they are told and they protest just about every command.

It gets better, trust me.

You enjoy these things a lot more if you watch first, then read the criticisms and debates after. I discovered that when I realised that I was getting angry and pissed uoff at shows i hadn't even watched, because i was reading too much commentary, then decided, okay.. this has to stop, cutt hem off, and just watched it for what it was, was so much better, .

i could appreciate the complaints, but having seen it myself, the it wasn't able to spoil the fun.

[Fencers]

ENSIGN Tilly being promoted all the way to First OFFICER. Bbbwhahah, I choked on my coffee!

[Beloren]

ENSIGN Tilly being promoted all the way to First OFFICER. Bbbwhahah, I choked on my coffee!

I was like wtf... but it wasn't off putting to me, it was charming.

[Fencers]

Except that's not really a promotion, she's still an Ensign. It's a job title, a duty. And she doesn't do a spectacular job of it, so that one's on Saru. I don't really feel he was well-suited to the captain's chair ... but he made a great First Officer and conscience to the Captain.

Throughout the course of Star Trek, let's not forget, we've seen Lieutenants and Ensigns and whatnot sit in the captain's chair numerous times and command a vessel. The Captain and First Officer typically are only on duty for a portion of the day, leaving the other shifts to lower ranked individuals. So, it's a stretch to give her that job but in Trek not totally impossible IMO.

I don't care about the plausibility of her promotion, she is.portrayed as clearly being young and inexperienced. And her character is a goof most of the time. Its hilarious they are going so hard for this character.

[Fencers]

They are, indeed. It seems they want to give her more to do than just figure out sci-tech stuff with Stamets. I liked at the start of the season when they had her go down to the ice planet with Saru, it was interesting for the character. But I'm hopeful that in season 4 the First Officer bit gets left behind, especially considering she made a mess of it. That would actually be some nice character development as well.

Agree totally.

[Kithelle]

Finished Season 3. Was a little bit boring and sometimes felt like a chore to watch. I was also very disappointed with the big reveal regarding the burn. Is that all they could come up with? Something so devastating needs a far better otherworldly explanation.

Yes...it is all they could come up with, they're just that awful and pale in comparison to even the worst of Star Trek. Their writing makes even things like Spock's brain look almost smart in comparison.

That is what you get when they do something original...but 98% of their work is just watching Netflix all day and stealing ideas and scenarios from everything else.

[Fencers]

Gotta admit, the lady from The Chain was making a lot of sense when she showed up with that treaty.

- - - Updated - - -

Uh, what. That is the cause of the burn? Fucking lame.

Should have kept it as a forever mystery rather than resorting to that hokum. So lame.

[s_bushido]

Gotta admit, the lady from The Chain was making a lot of sense when she showed up with that treaty.

Right up until she demonstrated that she was full of shit. I'm not really convinced she was ever willing to give up the power she would have had to in order to form an alliance like that, even without the admiral's demand that she step down and stand trial for her crimes.

[Egomaniac]

I found the entire idea that Vance was letting them fly around the galaxy with basically zero supervision utterly ridiculous. His first instincts were right. Replace the crew (other than Paul), Get everyone caught up on the last ~900 years, and then see if they can actually still fit in Starfleet anymore.

Ensign Tilly as First Officer is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that the entire crew was like "Yay, that's awesome". Right. That's a huge slap in the face to basically everyone else and Saru would know that. Should have brought in someone from that century to serve as first officer...at least on a temporary basis.

The explanation for the Burn was garbage.

[Koriani]

They are, indeed. It seems they want to give her more to do than just figure out sci-tech stuff with Stamets. I liked at the start of the season when they had her go down to the ice planet with Saru, it was interesting for the character. But I'm hopeful that in season 4 the First Officer bit gets left behind, especially considering she made a mess of it. That would actually be some nice character development as well.

I think that is my biggest problem with the show (your last sentence I mean...)

I 'enjoy' the show - well enough. Its entertaining enough - but I do more 'eye rolling ignoring' of the writing, characterizations, and plots than I do for the vast majority of other tv shows I watch. But its still 'good enough' to watch; esp. when the Pandemic Year puts everything else on slow-release.

But the lack of using events to further character development - may be what breaks me for this show. I just really wish, no matter how tropey or how Godlike the characters are, the writers would take these events and actually show character development that lasts longer than an episode. There have been all sorts of great plot points, inter-relationship drama, etc. that they could have done something with that would have brought so much more depth to the characters and events moving forward - that only goes nowhere (never brought up again) or is only briefly played out (at best).

Using *only* the most recent example - at the end of Season 3; but there is usually at least "one or two lost opportunities" per episode that are similar:


When Burnham sticks Stammets on the shuttle off the ship to make sure he couldn't be used by The Chain driving Disco. He's pissed - rightfully so. They do a great job of building this up in the scene and making it very clear how 'not ok' he is with this. By the end of the episode, we get a nasty look from Stamets to Burnham, but I wasn't expecting more at this point as they are wrapping up the season.

Would love for this to be built upon in s4. To really play out the character dynamic here - using the discord between crew members to further some real character development between them. Possibly tying in the overarching "Burnahm's actions affect more than just her" with a variety of crew members so that she gets some real character growth happening. For everyone.

But - like with every other opportunity the plot created in past episodes - they won't. If we're (viewing audience) are lucky we'll get a few conversations between the characters for an episode or two (if that) that ultimately leads no where real for any of them other than Stammets getting over it and returning to a happy state with Burnham.

Or using your example - the fact that yes, we could get some great character development and meaty bits for Tilly because of all of this. Of being thrust into the 1st officer's chair; of everything that happened after that point, etc. But we won't. Again - we might, in the first or 2nd episode of Season 4 - get some sort of discussion from Tilly with Burnham or Saru about what she is supposedly grappling with as an affect of all that. But that will be the extent of it.

Just like they did with the crew settling the "We're 1K years in the future and alone now" dynamic - touched upon for a single episode and then apparently everyone's fine again.

I think that, more than anything else about this show that 'isn't great', is what really turns me sour on the show. All of the grand-non-sensical-ness of the events, timeline, mechanics, whatever - all of that I can look past and enjoy myself. But the dead-end writing may end up making all of it unenjoyable for me. I at least want events from one episode to another to have some sort of impact on the characters' dynamics. For all of these crazy, life-altering, events to have more than an hour-long impact on a character's personality. That's the factor in their writing that may end up killing it for me.

I mean hell, even most 30 minute comedy sitcoms demonstrate this type of character growth at least once or twice a season.

[Elim Garak]

It's really baffling that after 3 seasons the only characters who had meaningful development are Stamets (less arrogant) and Empress (less Terran), and the latter is out already.