1. #2181
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Just a reminder of some of what we got from older Trek:
    Your point?

    I quite enjoyed that episode, watched it a few days ago actually.

    Posting a picture without context doesn't mean much.

  2. #2182
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Just a reminder of some of what we got from older Trek:
    The Thaw is a pretty fantastic episode, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Character Development:
    Ok yeah this one is trash. Possibly one of the worst Trek episodes ever made. Right along with that weird Tasha Yar spiky-fisted catfight one. Dear gods...

  3. #2183
    Disco would be nicer if it didn't have Burnham doing her agitated whispering thing in every scene. Normal people don't talk like that.

  4. #2184
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I think people easily forget that Trek has a small handful of the sublime, a smattering of the very good, a good number of watchable, and still too many of the not-so-great to utterly-terrible.
    Primarily a TNG problem, I feel. Highest highs and lowest lows, all rolled into one. Things got more consistent after that, but yeah, shows like VOY also have their share of utter shite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Discovery is NOWHERE near as bad as people in this thread try to make it out to be, despite their picking of every possible nit. If you treated the entirety of TNG the way people in this thread treat Discovery (and people did, in the 80s) then even the very best can be made out to be implausible, silly, outrageous and ... when compared to TOS, most decidedly NOT TREK.

    Disco has some meh episodes, some silly plot contrivances, and cases of outright forgetting what just happened last week. It's also got some excellent episodes, some great action (something 90s Trek absolutely lacked) and it's own stories to tell.
    To me, I just didn't find anything DIS did interesting or engaging, or even particularly entertaining. None of the characters interest me, the plot lines seemed mostly boring or contrived, and the aesthetic is, to me, simply off-putting. It doesn't FEEL like Star Trek to me, it feels like some other vaguely similar SF show, and I was never interested in stuff like the new Battlestar Galactica either. Maybe that's just personal, could well simply come down to taste.

  5. #2185
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Character Development:

    And considered one of the worst episodes ever, that's not news.

    For both of these: they're episodes, not a whole season. Whatever their flaws, they didn't carry over to the next episode.

  6. #2186
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    We are talking character development, not "which series had which bad episodes"
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  7. #2187
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I think people easily forget that Trek has a small handful of the sublime, a smattering of the very good, a good number of watchable, and still too many of the not-so-great to utterly-terrible. Discovery is NOWHERE near as bad as people in this thread try to make it out to be, despite their picking of every possible nit. If you treated the entirety of TNG the way people in this thread treat Discovery (and people did, in the 80s) then even the very best can be made out to be implausible, silly, outrageous and ... when compared to TOS, most decidedly NOT TREK.
    When you have 25 episodes in a season and 3 are great, 12 are good/watchable, 7 are bad/filler/forgettable and 3 are 'what were they thinking' tier on the whole you have a better season where 3 episodes were good, 2 were inoffensive and 8 were bad. Although obviously at the cost of more of your time.

    Discovery's main structural issue (all other terrible problems aside) has always been episode count. Half the appeal of Trek is knowing the characters and being interested in how that character responds to the situation (e.g how Genocide responds to the ship being compromised compared to Picard). When you only have 13 episodes you're trying to cram character building in with the plot and ultimately both suffer.
    I know it's a meme but the bridge crew is a perfect example, in every other show they were the show, in discovery they unironically didn't have names (said in the show) till season three and I bet most people still don't know their names.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  8. #2188
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Here, I'll make it even easier. These are characters that get ANY airtime repeatedly with speaking parts:
    Why you no like ENT?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Recurring Cast of TOS: Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Chapel, Rand.
    total: 9
    I should point out something about TOS that people continually forget. It had only two Main Cast actors: Shatner and Nimoy. Kelley was elevated to Main Cast in the second season. Most episodes will revolve around these three characters.

    Everyone else is a recurring character to one degree or another. Scotty is probably the most developed. The rest had talking parts but how much were they really given to do? Not as much as they should've. Uhura, Sulu, Chekov and Chapel all did less than any main cast TNG crew. Pulaski got more development than all of them and she was only around for 1 season.

  9. #2189
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Recurring Cast of TOS: Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Chapel, Rand.
    total: 9

    Recurring Cast of TNG: Picard, Riker, Data, Worf, LaForge, Yar, Troi, Crusher, Barclay, Pulaski, Guinan
    total: 11

    Recurring Cast of DS9: Sisko, Kira, O'Brien, Bashir, Dax x2, Odo, Quark, Nog, Rom, Leeta, Jake
    total: 12

    Recurring Cast of Voyager: Janeway, Chakotay, Paris, Torres, Kim, Tuvok, Neelix, Kes, Seven, EMH
    total:10
    The overwhelming majority of all these characters had at least one or multiple episodes center around them and lived for the duration of their respective series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Recurring Cast of Discovery: Burnham, Lorca, Giorgiou x2, Tilly, Stamets, Saru, Tyler, L'rel, Pike, Spock, Cornwell, Culber, Reno, Vance, Book, Adira, Gray, Osyrrah, Ryn, Owosekun, Detmer, Airiam, Landry, Nhan, Sarek, Amanda
    total: 27
    Which frankly cannot be said about disco's cast, a fair number of them have either been killed off or written out of the show. Or, like Owo/Detmer etc get a line every now and then and that's it.

    btw, you forgot Rhys, Bryce & Linus. Thought you knew the names?

  10. #2190
    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Myrr View Post
    Which frankly cannot be said about disco's cast, a fair number of them have either been killed off or written out of the show. Or, like Owo/Detmer etc get a line every now and then and that's it.

    btw, you forgot Rhys, Bryce & Linus. Thought you knew the names?
    Recurring characters are going to have less development than main cast characters. Even more so in shorter seasons. I really don't see why this is controversial.

    Ensign Gates was TNG Helmsmen, has 47 appearances and never spoke a line that I can think of. The DSC recurring bridge members generally have had it better than poor Mayweather ever did.

  11. #2191
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    Again. Character development! Not how many characters there were, how main they were, and whose names we can remember.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  12. #2192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I'll ask the question again, since you have steadily ignored it: What character development was there for Chekov? Uhura? Sulu, beyond "he can fence"?

    I didn't watch TOS, so I don't know. Better to look at more successful series than TOS, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    And also, yet again, if you think there's been no character development in Discovery then that's only because you're not paying attention. People bitch about Tilly being made First Officer ... but it's been a development for that character and she's had to reckon with her failure at it. Season 4 may explore that further. And goddamn, how could you have missed all the development of Saru? His home planet has figured in mightily in the last two seasons. His journey from second officer to XO to Captain has been a large focus of the show. What about Culber? He came back from being fridged and grappled with how he felt about being resurrected and is now moving into a very modern version of a family with Stamets, Adira, and Gray. We learned quite a lot about Book this season and his people, including an episode that featured him while still developing the threat of the Emerald Chain.
    You are describing events that happened to characters, not character development. A lot has happened to Tilly - Tilly didn't develop, Culber came back from the dead - still the same Culber, still the same relationship with Stamets, Adira, and Gray - are new characters that had no development yet. Saru's species development was cool, but he is still the same Saru. Hell, even the She-Michael had no development, still the same person. Book? What about him? A new character, no development yet. Learning a character's history is not character development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I'm sorry, but to claim there's been no character development only tells me you're hate-watching and not paying attention to anything other than the nits you think you can pick.
    I didn't claim there's no character development. I said there's very little of it.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  13. #2193
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I intentionally left them out because these few have really done not much more than respond as appropriate to their bridge station and been present for things that have happened.
    I'm done. No point arguing with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I'll ask the question again, since you have steadily ignored it: What character development was there for Chekov? Uhura? Sulu, beyond "he can fence"?
    Stop using TOS as an argument. You're comparing a show made 50 years ago with comparatively less than a quarter of the budget to the one made today. Audience expectations are different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Recurring characters are going to have less development than main cast characters. Even more so in shorter seasons. I really don't see why this is controversial.

    Ensign Gates was TNG Helmsmen, has 47 appearances and never spoke a line that I can think of. The DSC recurring bridge members generally have had it better than poor Mayweather ever did.
    Gates wasn't part of the main cast and was simply a background character, a substitute for when one of the mains wasn't on the bridge for whatever reason.

    Detmer & Owo are given screen time despite basically serving the same purpose. Detmer suddenly being an elite pilot capable of flying an alien ship a millennia more advanced (nevermind dealing with an unresolved case of PTSD) then Discovery and taking on Osyrah's flagship, like.. where did that come from?

  14. #2194
    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Myrr View Post
    Gates wasn't part of the main cast and was simply a background character, a substitute for when one of the mains wasn't on the bridge for whatever reason.

    Detmer & Owo are given screen time despite basically serving the same purpose.
    And yet she still had a lot of screen time. How do we know she deserves to be there? Taking the helm of the Federation's most important ships! She wasn't taking the place of a main cast character. None of TNG's main cast was a Helmsmen. Sulu, Paris, Mayweather and Detmer all have the specific duty of Helmsman. No equivalent cast member did the same on TNG.

    So fucking what? They're still bit characters played by fresh actors. Hell DSC taking a bit of time to flesh out the no-name crew we always see in the background is actually a plus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Myrr View Post
    Detmer suddenly being an elite pilot capable of flying an alien ship a millennia more advanced (nevermind dealing with an unresolved case of PTSD) then Discovery and taking on Osyrah's flagship, like.. where did that come from?
    You don't pay attention do you? It was all stated before hand. How the controls work, the inside information they had, the direction of someone else and last but certainly not least, Starfleet Fucking Academy.

  15. #2195
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Which, of course, is because they were episodic and you couldn't change the characters from week to week without leaving the viewers behind.

    But your right, partly. Audience expectations HAVE changed ... which is why we have Discovery and Picard and not TNG Remix and Deep Space 10 This is Star Trek for todays audience, just like TNG was for a 1987 audience and TOS was for a 1966 audience.
    Very often the people who wield the "Character Development Cudgel" aren't interested in character development, they just want something to bash things they don't like. Picard really didn't have that much development but he was still a great character.

    Unfortunately that is the problem with DSC. It started off as an action-adventure in space show and is still sometimes exactly that. I still expect certain things like exploring the shit out of stuff and diplomating the shit out of stuff and general weirdness. The occasional poisoned crossbow shooting or doublehand hammer fisting is fine.

  16. #2196
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    "Stop pointing out the thing that refutes me easily. Use only the things I think help my case"
    Oh dear god, the projection is real.

  17. #2197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    "Stop pointing out the thing that refutes me easily. Use only the things I think help my case"
    What? What you said can make sense only under these conditions:

    1. I watched TOS
    2. There are only TOS and DSC

    So lets for the sake of argument assume that TOS is as bad as DSC when it comes to character development (I don't know since I haven't watched it). Does it help your case in support of DSC? Nope.

    So either up your game or get out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Go back to the salamanders. What did that change for Janeway and Paris? When was it later referenced? How did it change them?
    Should it have? Is it either no character development or every episode should develop characters? I don't play a false dichotomy game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Outside of Seven and maybe Data no Star Trek character ever really grew over the course of a series
    What?

    Worf (over two series even), LaForge, "Broccoli", Picard, Wesly (Yes, that, Wesly), O'Brien, Q, Quark, Rom, even Morn, I can go on.

    And that's excluding Enterprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Discovery actually has more character development
    Demonstrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    This must be why Tapestry is one of the most boring of TNG episodes of all time, right? Learning about Picard's history and how it affected him does nothing to develop his character, I guess.
    I said it's not character development - not that it doesn't help.

    Picard's past was not the development in that episode, it was just a background. His past caused him a problem in the present. His acceptance of the past to resolve the problem - that's development. It's actually one of the episodes in which Picard developed his character, for reals. Q gave him a chance to RELIVE his past and do things differently and so he did and didn't like it - he realizes a very important lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    And it was never even referenced again
    That's the beauty of real character development IT DOESN'T FUCKING NEED TO BE REFERENCED. Like "remember how I did that?" That's not character development. History in and of itself is not character development. Remembering history and referencing it - is a quality EVERY person has, from day 0.
    I felt Picard's dilemma and I saw how he resolved it - he CHANGED right in that episode - that affects his character in ALL consecutive episodes - with NO referencing requirements. "Hey remember how I got broken artificial heart and that surgery and had this vision or maybe it WAS Q?" <- that's not character development.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  18. #2198
    What kind of audience are you talking about? Star Trek is supposed to be about how to solve difficult moral dilemmas without compromising on your ethics. In a show that can have real interracial diversity, the writers instead choose to focus on 1000000 shades of human.

    Characters like Adira, Burnham, Tilly and Stamets belong in a teenage drama like Skins, not a show about adults. When was the last time we've had a Ferengi, a Cardassian, an Orion or a Bajoran as a main character? Lower Decks not included, which is an excellent show and not at all like Discovery.

  19. #2199
    I've only seen good episodes of TOS and beginning of TNG but the TOS feeling of friendship really shined for me. In the beginning it was all Kirk. Then Spock started growing and Kirk began listening to him more and they became better friends. As time went Bones started getting closer to them and arguing with Spock more. Kirks role changed from sole hero to listening and handling them. He was still leader but wasn't alone. They looked like good friends by end. It was the dynamics from real life going into the show.

    In TNG that girl died and Data missed her during the court case but still didn't feel like anything changed. Relationships were same as before, Picard felt like he was alone at the top.

    No idea about Discovery so kind of off topic.

  20. #2200
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    When was the last time we've had a Ferengi, a Cardassian, an Orion or a Bajoran as a main character?
    DS9 wrapped 21 years ago.

    You might have missed it, but the XO/Captain for the majority of this show so far has been a non-human character. A character whose non-human traits and experiences have been very important to the stories he's been part of...

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