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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Why does it matter how many guilds are competing for the top spot? Honest question.
    It would matter more if you could watch their competition, I mean would you watch football championship if you knew beforehand which team is gonna win? Not so fun.

    I used to watch League of Legends world championship until I realized the same Korean team is winning year after year, so it became boring, and I stopped watching / following it.

    The only difference in wow is you can't watch the race / progression because no one is showing it. So at best you can be cheerleading at a team you can't even watch play. Some people still enjoy "rooting" for a team though.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    It would matter more if you could watch their competition, I mean would you watch football championship if you knew beforehand which team is gonna win? Not so fun.

    I used to watch League of Legends world championship until I realized the same Korean team is winning year after year, so it became boring, and I stopped watching / following it.

    The only difference in wow is you can't watch the race / progression because no one is showing it. So at best you can be cheerleading at a team you can't even watch play. Some people still enjoy "rooting" for a team though.
    I guess I see your point. I never understood people who watched eSports though, ha.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakushisai View Post
    Oh so I prove you wrong that mythic raiding is reviving and not ending, like you said, and you come up with that.
    Proved you are on the short bus.
    Infracted;
    Also man enough to report people out doing you in a conversation so you can reply without a rebuttal. Tough guy.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2017-06-13 at 08:07 AM.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Yggdrasil View Post
    Proved you are on the short bus.

    Also man enough to report people out doing you in a conversation so you can reply without a rebuttal. Tough guy.
    Believing every discussion needs to be a competition is what's wrong with this world. Grow up.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    I guess I see your point. I never understood people who watched eSports though, ha.
    It's not much different than the millions of people who watch regular sports. The biggest thing I notice is that people who watch eSports do so to improve their own game play, and most people who watch sports are just sitting on a couch drinking beer and eating chicken wings.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    You must be thinking of a specific expansion or something. WotLK/Cata was not like that at all.
    WotLK definitely was. The 10 man was a vastly easier raid than the 25, save for a select few fights (like the famous Sarth3D).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    10man was generally tuned easier (duh), but 25man had it easier in terms of mistake scaling, i.e. 1 person dies is far LESS impact on 25man than on 10man (1/25th vs 1/10th overall -
    1/6th your raid's DPS vs 1/18th, or half the healers vs a fifth, etc) and in 25man you have far more raid cooldowns/variety than in 10man which was my biggest issue with it, simply not having enough raid cooldowns to cover a bosses mechanics.
    That's half the story.
    The other half is that with 25 people, the fight is much more crowded, so many errors have much larger effect (remember the defile on the Lich King ?).
    Also, with more people, you've more risk to fuck up.
    Last edited by Akka; 2017-06-12 at 04:28 PM.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    It would matter more if you could watch their competition, I mean would you watch football championship if you knew beforehand which team is gonna win? Not so fun.

    I used to watch League of Legends world championship until I realized the same Korean team is winning year after year, so it became boring, and I stopped watching / following it.

    The only difference in wow is you can't watch the race / progression because no one is showing it. So at best you can be cheerleading at a team you can't even watch play. Some people still enjoy "rooting" for a team though.
    I got into it watching Paragon. You couldn't watch them in progress but they used to release a lot of videos showing first kills on various bosses with epic music that were a lot of fun to watch. They mostly stopped doing that by the end of Cata but I still followed the and enjoyed watching the end of raid fights. They always had the best videos.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Alright View Post
    Just doubtful, that's all.
    Yeah considering less than 5% of the player base actually stepped foot in Naxx 40....
    "We've never lived in a more peaceful or prosperous time since 1776." -Pre-911, MMO-Champion poster.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    I think you reversed the raid sizes?
    Thats what I was thinking. If one person dies in 10-man, thats 10% of your raid team. One person dies in 25-man, thats 4% of your raid team.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    It's true.

    If you played back in WOTLK, Sarth 3d (10 man) was considered the premiere fight of the first tier of raids, and it was much harder than 25 man Sarth 3D.

    It just also happened in this recent tier. Star Augur needed to be rebalanced for the smaller raids because it became more difficult the less you had.

    When they had 10/25 split, my guild used to run two 10 man teams because we liked the "feel" of the smaller size. There is less room for error, less room for someone to be carried. Everyone has to do their job and execute.
    Yes, exactly. I was even fine with 25-man getting a 1/2 tier higher ilevel gear to drop. People want 10-man raiding, whether people want to believe it or not. Restricting the highest difficulty of raiding in the game to a fixed roster size of 20 people is a step backwards, and if there aren't any changes to that in the next expansion, I'm not even going to buy it.
    Problems with WoW: No server communities, too much cross-realm crap, too many raiding difficulties, guilds don't matter anymore.
    Fix it: Limit server transfers, merge more servers, reduce raiding to 2 difficulties (N/H, 10/25), bring raiding back to guilds again (limit # of cross-realm players in your group). #MakeWoWGreatAgain

  10. #510
    Word around the water cooler is Limit has gathered up the needed accounts and should be good for WF. It's over before it even started ROFL

  11. #511
    The 10 vs 25 debate still lives on!

  12. #512
    The problem isn't 20 people; it's the fact that raiding has become a boring grind with no true end because of WF/TF and multiple difficulties.

    If Blizzard wasn't lazy or had more resources (or both), they'd make a true effort to balance three difficulties, not four. LFR should have even worse gear than it currently drops. There should be other content to gear up people who claim they "just want to see the content they pay for." Normal and heroic should be combined into one singular difficulty that focuses SOLELY on the portion of the player base who is likely never going to touch mythic raiding (and tier sets that only have power in that difficulty). Mythic raiding should be accessible from day 1 of the expansion for those who have farmed the best gear from dungeons/other means of gear acquisition. No one should have to grind one difficulty just to get to another.

    None of the loot from dungeons should WF/TF to the power of mythic raid gear, but the highest difficulty dungeons should give reasonably similar loot to the normal/heroic raid (to prepare people for mythic raiding when the raid opens). None of the lower raid difficulty gear should WF/TF to equal or surpass mythic raid gear. Mythic raid gear should not WF/TF at all.

    The difficulty of mythic raiding is something else to look at. No, the content is not that difficult for the best individual players, but it IS difficult for a GROUP of GOOD players. The idea of raiding with people you enjoy playing with should be much higher on the list of priorities for raid developers. The player base is shrinking and, as a result, the pool of mythic raiders is shrinking. Having multiple difficulties pulls people from mythic raiding. What you're left with is a difficulty in mythic that simply cannot be overcome by the majority of people playing in it -- and that's a poor design choice.

    Raiding itself is a niche within the game; to have a niche for MYTHIC raiding that caters to the smallest percentage of raiders ever is baffling to me. In an attempt to appease every single type of player, they have made raiding stale and repetitive. You cannot bring people to carry in your raid anymore; each player has to be outstanding if you want to clear a mythic raid. That might be fun to some minority of people, but I bet the majority of mythic raiders wouldn't mind higher DPS checks in the place of overwhelming amounts of mechanics that lead to overwhelming amounts of personal responsibility.

    As someone who has ranked in the top 100 PvPers in the world in WotLK and ranked more 99-100th percentile parses than I could ever count, I DO believe the mythic difficulty is too difficult in terms of personal responsibility. Just throwing this out there to combat the inevitable, "Get good, moron; this difficulty isn't for you."

    I don't know who the hell enjoys raiding anymore, but I really miss the times when I could just play with a group that consisted mostly of people I actually wanted to play with. I miss being able to take a breath and stand there mashing my buttons without having to move every 3 seconds (give me freedom to go full DPS on the move and I might retract that). I miss not having to grind multiple difficulties for weeks on end, just to be able to enter the same raid on a higher difficulty with the same loot table. I miss the experience of moving from one boss to another, discovering new parts of the layout I haven't seen yet, instead of plowing through a lower difficulty and seeing everything the raid has to offer right away; it kills the experience. That gradual, yet meaningful grind has been lacking from the game outside of raiding, too.

    I fully expect my wishes to be unfulfilled, because I really don't think Blizzard has their finger on the pulse of the raiding or PvP communities anymore.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
    Yes, exactly. I was even fine with 25-man getting a 1/2 tier higher ilevel gear to drop. People want 10-man raiding, whether people want to believe it or not. Restricting the highest difficulty of raiding in the game to a fixed roster size of 20 people is a step backwards, and if there aren't any changes to that in the next expansion, I'm not even going to buy it.
    Hmm, Bye-bye then, I guess...

    Restricting the highest level of difficulty to one fixed raid size is the only logical alternative to actually fully tuning a raid encounter to every single raid size that it can flex to. It gives the developers the opportunity to make fights that push everyone to the limit without making a fight unbeatable.

    If you made that flex, then people would find out the ideal number of people that would make the fight the easiest and that would then quickly become the new de-facto "fixed" raid size anyway.

    It's fine in the lower difficulty settings because encounters aren't (and shouldn't be) tuned to the max there anyway.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Socronoss View Post
    Hmm, Bye-bye then, I guess...

    Restricting the highest level of difficulty to one fixed raid size is the only logical alternative to actually fully tuning a raid encounter to every single raid size that it can flex to. It gives the developers the opportunity to make fights that push everyone to the limit without making a fight unbeatable.

    If you made that flex, then people would find out the ideal number of people that would make the fight the easiest and that would then quickly become the new de-facto "fixed" raid size anyway.

    It's fine in the lower difficulty settings because encounters aren't (and shouldn't be) tuned to the max there anyway.
    I never suggested making the highest difficulty flexible. I said I preferred it when it was 10 and 25. Flexible sizing has its benefits for pugs and F+F guilds, sure.
    Problems with WoW: No server communities, too much cross-realm crap, too many raiding difficulties, guilds don't matter anymore.
    Fix it: Limit server transfers, merge more servers, reduce raiding to 2 difficulties (N/H, 10/25), bring raiding back to guilds again (limit # of cross-realm players in your group). #MakeWoWGreatAgain

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by BrioWoW View Post
    Word around the water cooler is Limit has gathered up the needed accounts and should be good for WF. It's over before it even started ROFL
    imagine if u.s guilds used their 10 hour + lead and come through for once.

    I mean it won't happen but it'd be hilarious watching the forum nerds cry about it.
    Oceanic spriest, thanks blizz for giving us aus servers. 7/9 mythic ToS

  16. #516
    It's always fun watching the plebs discussing the big boys

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Simmias View Post
    imagine if u.s guilds used their 10 hour + lead and come through for once.

    I mean it won't happen but it'd be hilarious watching the forum nerds cry about it.
    Limit is going to be surprising a lot of people this tier, including their wf KJ.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by BrioWoW View Post
    Limit is going to be surprising a lot of people this tier, including their wf KJ.
    If Limit pulls off WF KJ, there will be very few people who aren't surprised. Limit themselves probably don't believe they have a great shot at it.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

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