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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post
    I agree that LFR is faster AP farming than WQ, but.. how much benefit do you actually see from stacking Concordance? Didn't Bliz specifically create that trait to discourage this sort of thing?
    You may be right moving forward my friend! I was more referring to the past 3-4 months in nighthold, I really hope next tier is better and that this does become a non issue

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dug View Post
    Well I'm no high end raider but I find it hard to believe top end mythic raiders are running LFR. For what? AP and a chance for a ridiculous WF/TF?

    With your idea it would limit players like me who run LFR and Normal
    runes and ap more likly

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyyrogue View Post
    so its pretty possible.
    "Has happened" isn't the same as "likely enough to be a good use of the personal/game time of raid members." I'm starting to agree here that the issue is not with the structure of WoW but the ridiculous requirements of raid leaders. I'll state again - not to be a defeatist, just a realist. If your team isn't bleeding edge and in the top 100 raid teams, actual contenders for a WF or RF, this is a poor use of people's time and an unreasonable expectation.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    As a very Pro-LFR player I somewhat agree, loot should have a lockout. But to be 900% clear loot should have a lockout no matter the difficulty mode.

    If you do NM ur not getting loot from LFR,Heroic,Mythic and so on. All this does is lead to burn out because u got groups who do X difficulty modes each week and just burn out.

    Don't make the lockout exclusive to LFR, Ether go all the way with it or not at all.

    Also by adding said lockout LFR should release when NM does or at lease the first wing then a new wing each week fallowing.
    Burn out isn't real.

    Playing the game more than what you want, as a requirement, then it's not a game; it's a job. Wanting to do these thing, then "burning out" mean you never really wanted to do those things.

    I play when I want, when I can, never when I "should." Because that's how any game should be played, with fun intentions, with peaceful interactions, and no pressure.

    Pressuring people into doing something they don't want to do, but "have" to do is the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserneko View Post
    Alright, you've convinced me. You've defeated me with your superior intellect and articulate arguments. All hail Jokerfiend.

  5. #85
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svisalith View Post
    Clearing LFR and normal mode raids gives extremely good legendary droprates per hour so the best skilled&geared raiders in the game are highly incentivized to do it.
    So your theory is removing those extra very small chances to TF some piece would be popular. That seems unlikely. As well with AP requirements. Very unlikely that making TF, legendaries or acquiring AP more difficult to get would be some popular solution.

    Legendary droprates, which I don't believe are 'extremely good' to start with, need to be balanced against how long you have to wait in queue if you are going to measure on a per hour basis.

    No, the way to fix this under the current raid schema is for people to exercise some self-control or question their guild requirements for AP. Others have suggested the more radical ideas of leveling the gear for all difficulties (unlikely at this point) or removing mythic (hilariously unlikely).
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  6. #86
    No serious raider does lfr for loot outside of maybe very specific items that don't scale well but just have a really good proc like the elisande trinket, you do it for the ap and legendary chance, or because you're just bored and just want some brain afk run while watching stuff, at least that's what I do for easy ap, legendary chance and runes.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novakhoro View Post
    I'll start this by saying that I can't stand the idea of LFR. I don't believe that it is interesting in any way shape or form. I believe that it is neither engaging, nor conducive to any kind of personal enjoyment, for me. I do acknowledge that it is here to say and how a vast majority of the playerbase experiences the content

    The reason that high end raiders dislike it is primarily two-fold (there are arguments for a third, but I will deal with two) in that: 1) they are strongly incentived to participate in it and 2) it diminishes the sentimental value of getting the kill on whatever difficulty you aspire to complete when Johnny No-Hands and Kelly Keyboard-Turner's blind cats can kill it while maintaining around 8% of optimal DPS/HPS/tankingpersecond.

    The second has been addressed by Blizzard and is why we have wings released on a delayed schedule for LFR. Sounds good. The third argument that I mentioned is that new players will see the herp-derp mode, feel like they've completed the game, and decide they're done until the new stuff.

    The former point, I believe, can be remedied by having a loot lockout that is solely for LFR. If you complete a boss on LFR then you cannot receive anything from that boss in any other difficulty throughout the reset. The same goes vice versa for the other difficulties meaning that if a boss is killed on Heroic difficulty there is nothing to be gained from killing it on LFR difficulty.

    There would then be no reason for anyone who does not wish to run LFR to feel like they have to, and LFR people would finally be free of all the elitist-scum who come into their LFR. They'd be left to their own devices to progress through the raid at whatever speed that randomly assigned group can muster.

    TL;DR - Give LFR its own loot lockout. You can either get loot from LFR or the other three difficulties. Higher end raiders won't have to subject themselves to LFR for any kind of gain, and LFR raiders wont have to get bitched at for trying to experience the game in a way that suits them

    Flame on if you disagree. I might have a terrible idea and that's fine, but I feel that this would satisfy both the LFR crowd and the anti-LFR crowd. Thoughts?
    The anti-LFR crowd don't do LFR so their opinion is not valid. I disagree purely because I like farming raids for ap and augment runes. Hell my guild runs all 3 difficulties of EN and norm/heroic TOV/NH - it's a good source of AP and legendary chances. LFR gives yet another source.

    On your "opinion" why do you care? If you don't do LFR, fine but don't restrict it for others. The anti-LFR crowd needs to take a deep breath, go outside for a walk, find a bridge and get the fuck over it because LFR is never ever going away.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Sae View Post
    I would much prefer this solution, or even just limiting it so that LFR loot can only WF up to a max of +10 ilvls.

    Currently LFR is the main source of augment runes (I know they can come from missions/queue bonus satchels, but those aren't always available for everyone) and is a decent source of AP/legendary chance even for top tier raiders, who arguably are the only ones who need augment runes in the first place.

    Plus, most LFR groups end up with a couple of normal/heroic/mythic raiders who know the mechanics, do good DPS/healing/tanking, and generally make the run smoother for the people in greens doing 60k DPS. Can you imagine how miserable of an experience LFR would be if it was always 20-25 of those semi-afk players because anyone who does any sort of organized raiding isn't allowed into the queue?
    Only answering the last paragraph :
    This would be the dream! More wipes and less completion makes every group wipe to 10 stacks per boss, which results in a single wing taking longer than a normal mode clear. And this means, Blizz has to abandon this "difficulty", ultimately reducing the ilvl gap between tiers. Miserable experience equals failure, equals we'll be getting rid of this abomination.

  9. #89
    I see 99% of people in this thread are forgetting about the one big thing that brings mythic raiders into LFR besides just for AP/legendaries. AUGMENT RUNES. Seriously bliz, just let us craft them or give us the infinite use augment rune back. As it stands right now I can either spend 400-500g per rune or go for a quick lfr clear and get most of the runes i'll need for the week. Either way I'm doing something I dont want to do for an item that has a HUGE benefit for high end content.

    Also sure, one level of concordance isnt worth a huge amount dps wise, but you cant forget about the stamina gain. Someone with 5 more concordance traits than another person will have ~170k more HP, even more for tanks. Thats not an insignificant number at all, and that slight dps gain can help your group push important timers that you were almost able to before, especially when multiple people get more traits.

    Last point is legendaries, sure most raiders who have been playing the same character since legion launched will have most, if not all of their main spec legendaries. That doesnt say a lot though, a good amount of people have swapped specs between EN and nighthold (enhance-ele, destro/demo-aff, MM-BM, ect.) or completely rerolled. Theres even more class changes on the horizon, so that'll cause more rerolls and spec swaps. Even if it doesnt, its a good idea to get off spec legendaries and farm AP for off specs in case they end up being better than your main spec, even if its just for 1 or 2 fights.

    All these systems are put in place to encourage mythic raiders to que up for LFR. So I que up for it almost every week, and almost every week theres a troll who pulls half the instances trash to wipe the group, or theres a tank who doesnt know the fight and nukes the melee, or puts the "thing that should not be" on top of star augur, or leaves botanist inside the healing pool, or theres about 5 afk people who tag the boss and go jerk off, or healers/tanks that are actually dps, ect ect. And the whole reason LFR is there in the first place is because people want to play an MMO without being social at all. They just want to click a button to que up and have blizzard do the work for them, not say a word, get their loot and leave. Because why try when blizzard will just give you hand outs.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by tacticalxxpanda View Post
    AUGMENT RUNES
    No. Just ... no. This argument makes no sense unless you're extraordinarily inefficient at finding gold in the game. If you don't want to run LFR, a LFR run is NOT the most time-efficient way to earn the rune, especially as the value you're quoting is a bit higher than the actual average price for those items, at least in NA. Even runes and AP combined make for a tepid case for raid leaders forcing heroic/mythic raiders to do this content.

    Requiring a rune is fine. Requiring a reasonable level of AP is fine. Dictating how people obtain those is not fine.

    Again, the problem is not LFR. The problem is raid leaders miscalculating the impact of those, as well as having poor management skills.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Taus View Post
    "Has happened" isn't the same as "likely enough to be a good use of the personal/game time of raid members." I'm starting to agree here that the issue is not with the structure of WoW but the ridiculous requirements of raid leaders. I'll state again - not to be a defeatist, just a realist. If your team isn't bleeding edge and in the top 100 raid teams, actual contenders for a WF or RF, this is a poor use of people's time and an unreasonable expectation.
    Is it the raid leaders though?
    Or is it just burned out players that treat the game more like work than a game?

    Whenever I see these threads I have to wonder in my 11 years of playing off and on, how come I haven't run into this type of magical raid leader that's got such an iron grip on his guild. I mean hell. How long ago did Nighthold come out again? Who's forcing their guild members to farm LFR every week to begin with (let alone to still doing it this late in the tier) in the off chance they get a TF + 40 with gem proc off tier gloves?

    And more importantly, why doesn't the guild do LFR together then?!

    It's more likely there are players that are being called out in PuGs for low DPS and compare themselves to other players of similar progression and find that some of them have done LFR and have their tier set bonuses or have a TF trinket from a WQ, or have an extra couple traits in their artifact from running Mythic+.

    These players, not wishing to play the game any more than they "have" to, don't want to do LFR, or WQ, or Mythic+ etc. etc. and therefor feeling they are at a disadvantage because they didn't run these "mandatory" activities.

    If LFR doesn't drop good trinkets or tier (as we saw in WoD), or don't drop legendary items or can't WF/TF (as we've seen suggested), or AP, or can't be run if you raid other difficulties (as suggested here) then the competition isn't receiving any rewards for putting more time into the game than these players and can't pull an advantage, no matter how small.

    Which is unbelievably selfish. Blizzard has said they want to reward players that run content with their friends- even lesser geared ones. If that translates into a bit of extra AP, or possibly a minor upgrade- cool!

    Insinuating that upgrades out of LFR are "mandatory" to progress in Mythic difficulty is just... I...

  12. #92
    Elemental Lord Lady Dragonheart's Avatar
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    Mathematically speaking, unless you're pushing a very specific BiS for current mythic progression, then LFR is mathematically inferior and a general waste of time compared to other means of progression. This is because proccing a 50+ ilvl (as mythic is generally 45 ilvl higher than LFR) titanforge drop is so rare that it isn't a time-marketing factor for proper progression.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novakhoro View Post
    I'll start this by saying that I can't stand the idea of LFR. I don't believe that it is interesting in any way shape or form. I believe that it is neither engaging, nor conducive to any kind of personal enjoyment, for me. I do acknowledge that it is here to say and how a vast majority of the playerbase experiences the content

    The reason that high end raiders dislike it is primarily two-fold (there are arguments for a third, but I will deal with two) in that: 1) they are strongly incentived to participate in it and 2) it diminishes the sentimental value of getting the kill on whatever difficulty you aspire to complete when Johnny No-Hands and Kelly Keyboard-Turner's blind cats can kill it while maintaining around 8% of optimal DPS/HPS/tankingpersecond.

    The second has been addressed by Blizzard and is why we have wings released on a delayed schedule for LFR. Sounds good. The third argument that I mentioned is that new players will see the herp-derp mode, feel like they've completed the game, and decide they're done until the new stuff.

    The former point, I believe, can be remedied by having a loot lockout that is solely for LFR. If you complete a boss on LFR then you cannot receive anything from that boss in any other difficulty throughout the reset. The same goes vice versa for the other difficulties meaning that if a boss is killed on Heroic difficulty there is nothing to be gained from killing it on LFR difficulty.

    There would then be no reason for anyone who does not wish to run LFR to feel like they have to, and LFR people would finally be free of all the elitist-scum who come into their LFR. They'd be left to their own devices to progress through the raid at whatever speed that randomly assigned group can muster.

    TL;DR - Give LFR its own loot lockout. You can either get loot from LFR or the other three difficulties. Higher end raiders won't have to subject themselves to LFR for any kind of gain, and LFR raiders wont have to get bitched at for trying to experience the game in a way that suits them

    Flame on if you disagree. I might have a terrible idea and that's fine, but I feel that this would satisfy both the LFR crowd and the anti-LFR crowd. Thoughts?
    So in other words because you don't prefer to do LFR you want to limit what other players can do with their time? That sounds like a GREAT IDEA. Let's remove more content...
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  14. #94
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    The solution is extraordinarily simple.

    Augment Runes should drop from all modes.

    That's it.

    I like LFR in the sense that it is a taste of raiding and helps alts and new players get into the raiding scene.

    What I don't like is the fact that people are bribed to go in just because it's the only source of augment runes in the game (barring dungeon satchels).

    At the end of the day, this won't happen, because Blizzard isn't stupid. LFR would simply not be completed if actual raiders weren't in there to carry. The amount of good players to bad players otherwise would require every fight to be Patchwerk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taus View Post
    No. Just ... no. This argument makes no sense unless you're extraordinarily inefficient at finding gold in the game. If you don't want to run LFR, a LFR run is NOT the most time-efficient way to earn the rune, especially as the value you're quoting is a bit higher than the actual average price for those items, at least in NA. Even runes and AP combined make for a tepid case for raid leaders forcing heroic/mythic raiders to do this content.

    Requiring a rune is fine. Requiring a reasonable level of AP is fine. Dictating how people obtain those is not fine.

    Again, the problem is not LFR. The problem is raid leaders miscalculating the impact of those, as well as having poor management skills.
    Someone has to collect the runes to sell, genius.
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  15. #95
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    Nobody honestly cares. If you raid you raid, if you don't you don't. I don't feel compelled to run LFR same as LFR raiders don't feel compelled to run higher difficulties. Non-issue. If you are feeling forced into it, find a new guild because yours is abusive.

    Or just remove LFR and make normal queuable as the only real difference between the two is that one can be queued into and one cannot. Normal is complete and total faceroll.

  16. #96
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    Awful idea, the last thing this game needs is the return of shared lockouts/shared loot lockouts.

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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    At the end of the day, this won't happen, because Blizzard isn't stupid. LFR would simply not be completed if actual raiders weren't in there to carry. The amount of good players to bad players otherwise would require every fight to be Patchwerk.
    Blizzard will tune LFR to its audience. If it's too difficult they will adjust it until it isn't. LFR doesn't need 'actual raiders' to carry. Blizzard totally understands this and it's foolish to think otherwise.

    LFR is tuned for success. If that requires little more than a stand-still Patchwerk fight then mechanics will be nerfed to the point where that's how it will be. The reality is that it's not really that far from it now. And that's fine. If the target audience for LFR is having a good time then there's nothing wrong with that.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by seventysix View Post
    I'm not even going to give you a logical rebuttal to this because you just sound like an angry person who needs to flame others that have an opinion that differs from yours. I need not be told to "Man up" over a video game by some forum troll.
    Apparently you do because you lack the spine to tell your raid that, no, you're NOT running all 4 difficulties just for a tiny chance that the ones with no gear for you will TF something valuable.

    Angry? Not really. Frustrated that whiny tryhards who won't own their choices in a video game keep using the bullshit excuse that they're 'forced' to do something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Dragonheart View Post
    Mathematically speaking, unless you're pushing a very specific BiS for current mythic progression, then LFR is mathematically inferior and a general waste of time compared to other means of progression. This is because proccing a 50+ ilvl (as mythic is generally 45 ilvl higher than LFR) titanforge drop is so rare that it isn't a time-marketing factor for proper progression.
    Oh god, someone who gets it.

    Look, I can see the incentive to do a specific wing of LFR because one of the bosses drops a kick ass trinket or whatever and IF it TFs it would really be a noticeable upgrade. But 1) thats one wing, about 20 minutes. BFD... and 2) it's your choice to do that, knowing it's a very low chance for it to happen. IF you want to spend 20 mins or so per week for the off chance of a 50 level TF, fine. IF you don't feel it's worth your time... don't do it.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Plutarch78 View Post
    LFR has been out for like what 6 or 7 years now and people still complain about it?
    Because Blizzard keeps inventing new ways for LFR to have an impact on the higher difficulties. While rare, it is possible to run LFR and end up with loot at a high item level than a Mythic drop due to the Titanforge system. Also, due to the Order Hall missions that send us to kill specific raid bosses every couple of weeks for a chest that rewards a Heroic or Mythic level piece of loot, many people use LFR to complete those missions. Since they don't always populate at a time that coincides with when you kill the boss during your regular Heroic or Mythic run, and because they send you back into older raids that you're not otherwise running any more.

    But because of the Titanforge system, I'm always going to go get my Mythic EN cache from my Order Hall mission in the hopes it drops a 925 Bloodthirsty Instinct. And that means running LFR to go kill the EN boss the mission requires that week. So I'm not running LFR because I want to, I'm running it because Blizzard keep putting things in game that require I run it.

    Almost forgot, there is the whole legendary system to take into account. If I want to ensure 1 legendary drop per week, that means full clearing all available LFR. It would be nice to finally run out of legendaries, but Blizzard keeps adding more to the game. Thus requiring I keep running LFR.

  20. #100
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    LFR is one of the greatest additions to have ever been implemented in WoW. It's definitely in the top 5 of best ones.
    Anything that would stop people from participating in it is a bad idea.

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