i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Baconeggcheese]

Because it's a dick move and creates a toxic atmosphere with people parsing logs constantly in chat to belitte other people, something wow suffers greatly from. You don't wanna deal with shit dps, you go with your guild

In my experience the lack of meters does absolutely nothing to prevent the toxicity you're talking about. It just allows more people to be toxic due to no one actually knowing how well / poorly they're playing.

I remember playing swtor back before people started using the 3rd party programs to get in game meters and people acting like they were gods gift to the game and all the same toxicity only for the meters to tell a very different story once people got around to using them.

[Dwill]

...

What exactly does that have to do with my post?

This ?

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Then proceed with this:

Statics do as Statics do. Also remember that savage raiders comprise a tiny fraction of the player base. This topic asks why people oppose parsers and I gave my reasons. The fact that FFXIV has no in game parser and third party parsers are not officially sanctioned seems to keep the douchenozzles in check to some extent. I'd rather not risk that changing.

Which contradicts to a point your post about parsers not being needed for people to clear content early on (determining accuracy cap and stats weight both says hi).

Also, after nearly two decades of playing MMO and playing this one since release, I can say with very high degree of certainty that "douchenozzles", contrary on what you seem to think, comes from every type of players whether it's casual or mid/hardcore and even more so the former.

Damage meters should've never been a thing tbh. It just gives people another reason to flame one another.

People will flame one another whether parsers would exists or not. That shouldn't be a reason to prevent people who wants to use a parser to improve themselves.

In my experience the lack of meters does absolutely nothing to prevent the toxicity you're talking about. It just allows more people to be toxic due to no one actually knowing how well / poorly they're playing.

I remember playing swtor back before people started using the 3rd party programs to get in game meters and people acting like they were gods gift to the game and all the same toxicity only for the meters to tell a very different story once people got around to using them.

Perfectly said!

Toxic people will be toxic, meters or not.

[Shazdk]

I'm sorry, but direct numbers will ALWAYS result in abuse? What on earth? That's the only potential outcome from parses?

I agree that people can be rude if they think someone else's DPS is bad, and that wow does suffer somewhat from that attitude. But, for the vast majority of players who become involved with logs and rankings, I think it actually leads to a deeper understanding of their class mechanics and encounter mechanics, as well as making them generally better players. For a competitive space, doesn't that take precedent?

I think the major problem that people in both FFXIV and wow have with parsing is that there isn't really a good way to numerically measure the interaction between player and encounter mechanics. To that end, damage done isn't an absolute measure of player skill, because you could be doing every mechanic perfectly and less DPS than another player, but actually be contributing more to the group than the higher DPS. Damage taken can only get you so far: It won't tell you if someone clicked a key item, or used a spell to group adds together, things like that.

My question to anti-parsing people is why they choose to be offended by other people who might bring up DPS in a group. If your metric for success is mechanics and having fun or some other variable, then why does someone who has a completely different metric for their own success saying something to you about that metric actually bother you at all? Furthermore, why does your desire for a certain group environment trump their right to set personal goals and be able to work towards them, as well as keeping tabs on how the players around them are performing? If I can agree that there are some shitty people who just harp on in groups about how your DPS is bad (and those people exist), can't I be allowed to keep my meters and legitimately call you out if I'm doing 60-80% of the damage in the group?

The fact of the matter is, if you're getting backpacked by my DPS and I'm forced to hard carry, that's stressful and annoying. Just because the toxicity isn't verbalized in chat doesn't mean it isn't every bit as dispiriting and abusive as calling you out for low DPS is. Why should *I* have to pay for your lack of skill, laziness, or poor understanding of your class? Obviously, doesn't apply to new or undergeared players, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. When you get backpacked, you are de facto abusing other people to at least the same degree that hollering at you for DPS would amount to.

[Sooba]

So many replies and nobody has actually answered the OP's question/argument about the double standard. Well, one person tried but all they did was circular logic:

Because you can't kick dps without having knowledge about what dps is not up to par, unless you wanna name the person which again is against the rules and is "dps" shaming which SE doesn't want. It's really simple

The rest have resorted to either ad hominem:

You are the embodiment of every reason there is opposition to parsing.

or strawmanning the question:

Because it's a dick move and creates a toxic atmosphere with people parsing logs constantly in chat to belitte other people, something wow suffers greatly from. You don't wanna deal with shit dps, you go with your guild

Which is sad, because one person even re-linked to try and get people to answer it. So let's try this again:

when dps players aren't doing their job it's "toxicity" to remove them from party

but when a tank or healer isn't doing their job, it's a necessity

Phrased differently, why do tanks and healers have to deal with getting kicked for not doing their role, if dps don't?

[Kyriani]

This ?



Then proceed with this:



Which contradicts to a point your post about parsers not being needed for people to clear content early on (determining accuracy cap and stats weight both says hi).

Also, after nearly two decades of playing MMO and playing this one since release, I can say with very high degree of certainty that "douchenozzles", contrary on what you seem to think, comes from every type of players whether it's casual or mid/hardcore and even more so the former.

Statics were clearing content well before third party meters were a thing. So no contradiction there. And I never said douchenozzles won't be douchenozzles or that they can't come from all sorts of places, but there's no reason to enable them.

So many slacker that don't won't to be expose as slacker.

And you. Don't assume you know anything about the capability in game of people posting here just because they don't like seeing people who may not be that good at the game being treated like shit. Posting crap like that is merely a deflection and has no basis in reality. I can guarantee a few of us posting against parsers play far better than most.

[Sooba]

Statics were clearing content well before third party meters were a thing. So no contradiction there. And I never said douchenozzles won't be douchenozzles or that they can't come from all sorts of places, but there's no reason to enable them.

Still not dealing with the actual question.

[Lillpapps]

Statics were clearing content well before third party meters were a thing. So no contradiction there. And I never said douchenozzles won't be douchenozzles or that they can't come from all sorts of places, but there's no reason to enable them.

Parsers has existed for all of FFXIV's lifespan.

[Kyriani]

Still not dealing with the actual question.

I already answered the OP's question in my initial post.

[Sooba]

I already answered the OP's question in my initial post.

No, you didn't. You, much like Theprejudice, answered a different question/argument.

You have not dealt with the double standard. If it's toxicity to kick a dps for not doing their job, it's toxicity to kick a tank or healer for doing the same.

[Katchii]

the most common excuse is harassment but man i can tell you i really dont need a parser to tell that someone is doing really low damage and to be annoyed by it. i mean damn lol shouldn't we be telling Dragoons their AoE DPS is trash because they are spamming ring of thorns since they never noticed doom spike has a potency of 160? You'd kick a tank or healer without hesitation for not being able to fulfill the duty they queued as... why wouldn't you kick a DPS for the same thing?

is what it really boils down to that being a dps is a "safe zone" for poor performance in spite of taking up the most critical role in a group's success?

I mean... I can't help but laugh when there is a dps problem and I am doing 50% damage and the other bard passive aggressively asks me why I am using foes then motions a vote abandon when I tell him "because it's free damage". After dragging all 700 of his dps through sohm al this fucking boo boo ass bitch midget motherfucker is going to act like he was doing 1700 dps and I was doing 300? When he can't even read a tooltip?

and i'm not even allowed to tell him how bad his damage really was.

now in this scenario everyone has wasted their time because nobody had the balls to kick the McShitDPS Supreme. But if your healer or tank was doing that bad of a job they would have been kicked so much sooner.

People aren't opposed to parsing, they're opposed to people like you acting like this in chat and creating a terrible experience for everyone involved, which can be blamed on the fact that you had a parse.

If the world could be trusted to be supportive and constructive and also accepting of that support and criticism, parsing would be fantastic, sadly the world is filled with assholes.

That said, not having a parser isn't going to prevent an asshole from being an asshole, I'm just saying a parser gives them ammunition.

[Sooba]

People aren't opposed to parsing, they're opposed to people like you acting like this in chat and creating a terrible experience for everyone involved, which can be blamed on the fact that you had a parse.

If the world could be trusted to be supportive and constructive and also accepting of that support and criticism, parsing would be fantastic, sadly the world is filled with assholes.

And yet it's ok to do it to tanks and healers?

[Dwill]

Statics were clearing content well before third party meters were a thing.

FFXIV-APP was a thing before ATC and was freely available before the T5 world first. So no, statics weren't clearing things well before them. Try again.

So no contradiction there. And I never said douchenozzles won't be douchenozzles or that they can't come from all sorts of places, but there's no reason to enable them.

So you'd prevent anybody who wants to use a parser to get better just because maybe someone will get flamed over their damage ?

[Queen of Hamsters]

You've been blessed. WoW's social climate in pugs, says hi.

[Sooba]

You've been blessed. WoW's social climate in pugs, says hi.

See, this I don't get. I'd been in pugs across 7 characters geared from Mythic down to blues for ~9 years before I eventually left due to moving on. I'd been subjected to DPS shaming precisely 0 times. I'd witnessed it in a pernicious form less than 1% of the runs I've ever been on. About 30% of the runs had some level of commentary on DPS, most of which were remarkably straightforwardly respectful. ("Please meet relatively low x value or we'll have to kick in order to be able to down the boss") All of those runs were inevitably challenging content that required such restrictions. Standard mythic dungeons? pfft.

Most flaming I've ever witnessed has almost always come in the form of folks getting upset at people failing mechanics that ultimately screwed the group. Most often it's when said mechanics don't have the operant conditioning of insta-gibbing the offender, because then they don't learn.

[Jun]

it was the vault. the three adds by the door past the first boss. oh god, six guys. you probably shouldn't be a tank if you can't tank 6 mobs considering what you dealt with only minutes beforehand. to do things like that denotes a severe level incompetence and narcissim if you do not even try to control the situation. it'd be different if they had tried, but they did not. i have never given up on getting aggro. that's just stupid. you shouldn't be a tank if you do that.

at least not until you figure out how to change your tampon and hit unleash/flash/overpower and deal with it.

me doing that for him just means he doesn't have to do all of the shenanigans to los the mage and slow the group down. instead, he just gets all shitty about it because of some moronic level of entitlement.

I also never said the community was bad. I just said it's really not that different. If you think the wow community is bad... well, that's your own opinion. I think they whine a lot and people are too worried about what "the pros" are doing but it's like that in every community.

for example, Monks are acting like the sky is falling because of Dragoon raid comp synergy when most of these people raid final bosses in full raid gear where the people maximizing every little detail are clearing the most content with the least amount of gear.

No, it's you. Not them.

At any rate, parsing is not needed to help low-DPS players. Being considerate, patient, and generally not an asshole, however, goes a lot further than just spamming party chat with numbers. Let's be honest, @OP, you're just wanting to wave your e-peen around. Leave that stuff in WoW.

[Kyriani]

No, you didn't. You, much like Theprejudice, answered a different question.

You have not dealt with the double standard. If it's toxicity to kick a dps for not doing their job, it's toxicity to kick a tank or healer for doing the same.

It's not toxicity to kick a player who isn't doing their job regardless of role, particularly if you made polite efforts to help them improve. But it is toxicity to hold players to certain standards far beyond whats necessary to complete the content.

I touched on this previously. When you have a dungeon that requires a minimum of ilvl 180 and drops ilvl 195 loot... but require all your members to be ilvl 200 or higher, THAT is toxicity.

When you're in a group where someone is under performing but not so badly that the run can't be completed, and you berate them in chat like an asshole, THAT is toxicity.

When you're in a group where you're just clearly the better player and better geared, but someone else in the group just isn't as good as you and/or as well geared yet you expect them to perform competitively with you, THAT is toxicity.

Struggling to clear a dungeon because one player, whose role is critical, just isn't able to do what is necessary, even after attempts are made to advise them on how to fix the issue, and ultimately and regrettably having to replace them is NOT toxicity.

I'll provide an example from my own experiences. While I am usually WHM, I decided to level BLM which I did well at. In Lost City of Amdapor (lvl 50), we had a WHM, who was, in no uncertain terms, awful. Her response time was incredibly slow to react to incoming damage, she wasn't using several of her spells, she got hit by aoes, and she never dpsed. Did we kick her? No. At first I saw things were not going well and helped a bit with some cross-classed Physicks here and there. She died on the first boss to mechanics but we got the boss low enough that some Physick spam on my part kept the tank alive long enough to finish the fight.

After that I started observing the WHM and what she was doing... or wasn't doing. Once I had an idea of the issues, I politely told her that keeping Regen on the tank when we're fighting trash, and on everyone along with a medica II hot when we are fighting bosses, would help make her job easier. Sure I handheld her a bit, probably moreso than most would, but she actually took my instruction and improved. Not enough that most (even I) wouldn't still consider her bad, but enough that we completed the dungeon. Yes it wasn't the best experience for me, but for her... she got some positive reinforcement and improved. Her next dungeon will not be as bad and she might just get even better from there. I know few people with the patience I showed in that run, but the other group members happened to share it too and we helped this subpar healer actually get better to some degree without making her feel like shit. More people need to be that way IMO.

[Katchii]

And yet it's ok to do it to tanks and healers?

Do what exactly?

I also clarified that I understand an asshole will be an asshole, with or without a parser, it's just that having a parser gives them ammunition they normally wouldn't have.

The current situation, where parsers exist, but aren't officially sanctioned and take effort to find and set-up (as little as that may be) prevents a large portion of people from getting and using it. I'm fine with that.

[Cattleya]

Phrased differently, why do tanks and healers have to deal with getting kicked for not doing their role, if dps don't?

Quite simply, because there's someone else picking up the slack or because there's no enrage mechanic. A healer not healing enough results in a wipe, a tank not holding aggro (enough) results in a wipe. A DPS not doing enough damage can result in a wipe, but more often than not it simply means the boss takes more time to kill.

That said I've never witnessed a healer or tank being kicked for not being good enough, all the kicks I've seen were for disconnects or AFKs. Leavers/disbands are another thing entirely.

[Dwill]

Struggling to clear a dungeon because one player, whose role is critical, just isn't able to do what is necessary, even after attempts are made to advise them on how to fix the issue, and ultimately and regrettably having to replace them is NOT toxicity.

Every single role is critical whether it's tanking, healing or DPS'ing. So once more, try again.

Quite simply, because there's someone else picking up the slack or because there's no enrage mechanic. A healer not healing enough results in a wipe, a tank not holding aggro (enough) results in a wipe. A DPS not doing enough damage can result in a wipe, but more often than not it simply means the boss takes more time to kill.

2 DPS failing (seeing as how you've got 2 healers and 2 DPS in a group) to DPS properly will usually result in a wipe due to straining resources from the healers, failing to meet DPS checks due to the slack who might be too much to pick up.

It's not ok for tanks and healers to be called out but for DPS to get a free pass due to "maybes" and "ifs".

[Kyriani]

So you'd prevent anybody who wants to use a parser to get better just because maybe someone will get flamed over their damage ?

Since parsers are not necessary to complete content, yes, I would deny an official in game parser if it means potentially reducing the amount of bad behavior.