Tell me again why Shadow Covenant is bad?

[Gob]

I figure, for healing party/raid-wide damage:

Assuming Covenant absorbs all its healing...
HPS
Shadow Mend = 375-750 Spellpower / 1.5 sec = 250-500 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*1 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *1 = 150 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*2 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *2 = 300 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*3 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *3 = 450 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*4 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *4 = 600 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*5 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *5 = 750 Sp/s

Covenant beats Mend's best-case HPS at 4 targets, and worst-case at 2 targets.

HPM
Shadow Mend = 375-750 Spellpower / 2.8 mana = 134-268 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*1 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *1 = 45 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*2 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *2 = 90 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*3 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *3 = 135 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*4 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *4 = 180 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*5 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *5 = 225 Sp/m

Covenant beats Mend's worst-case HPM at 3 people, but always loses to Mend's best-case HPM.

Sure, it doesn't give atonement, but if you're not using atonement for raid-wide damage anyway, why do you need it on so many people?

[MendUS]

I figure, for healing party/raid-wide damage:

Assuming Covenant absorbs all its healing...
HPS
Shadow Mend = 375-750 Spellpower / 1.5 sec = 250-500 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*1 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *1 = 150 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*2 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *2 = 300 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*3 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *3 = 450 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*4 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *4 = 600 Sp/s
Shadow Cove*5 = 225 Spellpower / 1.5 sec *5 = 750 Sp/s

Covenant beats Mend's best-case HPS at 4 targets, and worst-case at 2 targets.

HPM
Shadow Mend = 375-750 Spellpower / 2.8 mana = 134-268 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*1 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *1 = 45 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*2 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *2 = 90 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*3 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *3 = 135 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*4 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *4 = 180 Sp/m
Shadow Cove*5 = 225 Spellpowe / 5 mana *5 = 225 Sp/m

Covenant beats Mend's worst-case HPM at 3 people, but always loses to Mend's best-case HPM.

Sure, it doesn't give atonement, but if you're not using atonement for raid-wide damage anyway, why do you need it on so many people?

Healing absorb makes it inefficient after one cast, since you're just healing off the absorb after that so every other spell cast using it is not actually doing any healing. It also costs quite a bit of mana. In 7.2.5, because it's no longer in the 100 tier and it can be paired with Grace, SCov will definitely have use on certain affixes in M+, but is still pointless in raids.

[anon5123]

Because the healing absorb is cancer. That's why it's bad.

Even with it becoming baseline and instant cast, it's still a really crap spell.

[MendUS]

Because the healing absorb is cancer. That's why it's bad.

Even with it becoming baseline and instant cast, it's still a really crap spell.

It's not baseline, it's still a talent choice, just a different tier...

as I said above, it's still a decent choice for certain affixes (Bursting) since it can pair with Grace and not impede our dungeon healing by choosing to use it.

[Supliftz]

because the spell does less healing than every other spell disc priest can cast and makes your Shadow Word Pain 20% worse, and your non-atonement spells potentially 30% worse.

[vulena]

You are also not considering the cost of NOT picking the other two talents in your analysis.

By choosing Shadow Cov, you do NOT get Purge or Grace. You're just comparing Shadow Cov in a vacuum, which is completely useless.

[Myzou]

Next patch it'll be a little more competitive.

It'll have to compete with +50% on Smite's Absorb, and Clarity of Will.

Which pretty much makes it the go-to for raid healing, as Smite and CoW are mostly single target.

The other talent changes are interesting. PtW will never be chosen as it'd have to be picked over Divine Star or Halo.

Power Infusion I doubt will be picked anymore either, as it'll compete with Grace and Evangelism, which is a 1 min CD spell that increases all active atonements by 8 seconds.

[Popokolara]

Next patch it'll be a little more competitive.

It'll have to compete with +50% on Smite's Absorb, and Clarity of Will.

Which pretty much makes it the go-to for raid healing, as Smite and CoW are mostly single target.

The other talent changes are interesting. PtW will never be chosen as it'd have to be picked over Divine Star or Halo.

Power Infusion I doubt will be picked anymore either, as it'll compete with Grace and Evangelism, which is a 1 min CD spell that increases all active atonements by 8 seconds.

You have atonement for raid healing, its just a horrible design choice.

[Noradin]

The other talent changes are interesting. PtW will never be chosen as it'd have to be picked over Divine Star or Halo.

Never? I do not think so.

[MendUS]

Next patch it'll be a little more competitive.

It'll have to compete with +50% on Smite's Absorb, and Clarity of Will.

Which pretty much makes it the go-to for raid healing, as Smite and CoW are mostly single target.

The other talent changes are interesting. PtW will never be chosen as it'd have to be picked over Divine Star or Halo.

Power Infusion I doubt will be picked anymore either, as it'll compete with Grace and Evangelism, which is a 1 min CD spell that increases all active atonements by 8 seconds.

You won't pick SCov for raid healing.

You won't pick Halo/DS over PtW, PtW is still better than both of them.

You're correct on PI though, Evangelism will always be ideal in raids for raid healing and Grace for dungeon healing.

Sups did a good write up of the talent changes on Focused Will: http://focusedwill.com/7-2-5-talent-discussion-changed/

[Supliftz]

Next patch it'll be a little more competitive.

It'll have to compete with +50% on Smite's Absorb, and Clarity of Will.

Which pretty much makes it the go-to for raid healing, as Smite and CoW are mostly single target.

The other talent changes are interesting. PtW will never be chosen as it'd have to be picked over Divine Star or Halo.

Power Infusion I doubt will be picked anymore either, as it'll compete with Grace and Evangelism, which is a 1 min CD spell that increases all active atonements by 8 seconds.

Yea Shadow Covenant will be competitive in a 5 man setting. Fixes the problem disc has with topping people between packs. This is especially relevant during bursting and grievous. It is still bad in raids because Shadow Covenant is worse than every thing else you can press, and sanctuary is literally free hps.

Purge is a much better effect than Halo/Divine Star honestly. Makes SW:P cheaper, do more damage, and has great synergy with bosses that have multiple targets and legendaries like estel. DPS spells like Halo have to be compared to penance and smite, and casting halo over penance or smite is just a bad idea. Purge the Wicked does not compete with this, as it just makes your dot 20% better.

[Gob]

Healing absorb makes it inefficient after one cast, since you're just healing off the absorb after that so every other spell cast using it is not actually doing any healing.

My calculations show that it is NOT inefficient after one cast. All of my calculations assume that Shadow Covenant absorbs as much healing as possible--the worst case scenario.

[Spicymemer]

Its going to be useful, anyone who says otherwise is insane, while there are other...better spot healers, disc doesnt need to feel useless when on demand aoe healing is needed.

Its best compared to CoH, costs more, does more healing, has no cooldown and at this point, its basically CoH but ~50% better.

While there is a heal absorb, things like leech and random aoe healing (efflo/rain/pom-renew/paladin thing) make this absorb almost irrelevant.

Not a great spell, but it has its spot, but i think it should have been an aoe shadowmend where incoming damage reduces its negative aspect.

[anon5123]

While there is a heal absorb, things like leech and random aoe healing (efflo/rain/pom-renew/paladin thing) make this absorb almost irrelevant.

"it's okay to absorb healing as long as it's not my healing getting absorbed"

how about no

Healing absorbed is healing absorbed, regardless of where it's coming from. And healing absorbed is a bad thing.

Shadow Covenant is just fundamentally broken. The healing absorb is the sole reason why it is terrible.

[Noradin]

Shadow Convenant is fine now for its intended purpose: Healing up the group in mythic+ dungeons in between combat while dots are ticking on everyone.
That has been one of the things disc was lacking in that we now have a tool for that we can talent for those situations where it is relevant.

In short: Shadow Convenant is exactly what a talent should be: Useful for some content but not always the best.

[Spicymemer]

"it's okay to absorb healing as long as it's not my healing getting absorbed"

how about no

Healing absorbed is healing absorbed, regardless of where it's coming from. And healing absorbed is a bad thing.

Shadow Covenant is just fundamentally broken. The healing absorb is the sole reason why it is terrible.

You made me do this.

Shut the fuck up, you are the cancer that are healers these days.

mmm..muh hps... muh percentiles.... must prove myself.

Back in my day, the real days, we always used to say..

'Healers dont need to look at the logs, if nobody dies, they did their job.'

Do you really believe that healing is so orchestrated that overhealing doesnt exist?

[anon5123]

Shut the fuck up, you are the cancer that are healers these days.

#triggered

mmm..muh hps... muh percentiles.... must prove myself.

that's not even what I was saying, but okay

In short: Shadow Convenant is exactly what a talent should be: Useful for some content but not always the best.

The problem is that it's bad in 90% of situations. There should not be a damage/healing ability that is only useful out of combat, "in between pulls". That's really dumb design.

[MendUS]

You made me do this.

Shut the fuck up, you are the cancer that are healers these days.

mmm..muh hps... muh percentiles.... must prove myself.

Back in my day, the real days, we always used to say..

'Healers dont need to look at the logs, if nobody dies, they did their job.'

Do you really believe that healing is so orchestrated that overhealing doesnt exist?

You're ignoring the fact that the situation in which you'd most likely use Shadow Covenant is one in which the entire raid is taking damage, not sitting at 100%. SCov doesn't heal for enough to actually top people off if everyone is at lets say, 50% hp. If you place a healing absorb on them and only go them up to 60-65%, you're making it take that much more healing to get them topped off by other healers.

Sure, if the healing was going to be overhealing anyway, it's w/e... but that's never the case.

Also, SCov is going to make you look better than you actually are because healing absorbs count towards your healing, not against it, in logs and meters.

[Noradin]

The problem is that it's bad in 90% of situations. There should not be a damage/healing ability that is only useful out of combat, "in between pulls". That's really dumb design.

Why?
There is on affix in mythic+ dungeons that makes it almost mandantory.
That should be good enough for a talent, because--you know--talents are supposed to be something that is usefull sometimes, not all the time, otherwise they would be baseline and not something that competes with two other choices.

I think they did well.
They found a niche we had trouble with and put this talent in a place where we can use it in that niche.
What else do you want? A talent that is always useful/mandantory? Then what about its two competitors?
There really is nothing wrong with talents that are unneccessary in 90% of situations if they pull their weight in the remaining 10%.

And one of disc's most glaring weaknesses is speedily healing up groups out of combat, this talent solves that problem.
There is never are reason why you wouldn't want it, now that it does not take away another important spell.
In fact, it is an excellent quality of life choice in dungeons, because it is instant and hits everyone.

[anon5123]

There really is nothing wrong with talents that are unneccessary in 90% of situations if they pull their weight in the remaining 10%.

Blizzard disagrees with you. Most other talent trees have decent uses in many places and are competitive with each other.

Designing a whole ability that is only useful in very, very narrow situations, is bad design.