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  1. #21
    Unpopular opinion... but I love the split. It made sense for them to be separated and it's good they can each get attention needed without them being bound to each other.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Huuanu View Post
    Not a fan of the split, cats came out relatively unscathed but I feel bears got shafted.
    Whilst they may have lost some of their uniqueness, you can hardly say that bears got shafted, since they're pretty much the best tanks in Legion.

    Thx to Winter Blossom for the awesome sig

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nero Stormchester View Post
    Whilst they may have lost some of their uniqueness, you can hardly say that bears got shafted, since they're pretty much the best tanks in Legion.
    and ferals were one of strongest specs in WoD for PvP, yet could not bring myself to playing one as "the feeling" just wasn't there ;3

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Unpopular opinion... but I love the split. It made sense for them to be separated and it's good they can each get attention needed without them being bound to each other.
    untrue; thats a very popular opinion

  4. #24
    It would be as simple as taking all 4 Afinities and merge them up together. That's the toolkint a druid without any chosen spec should have to bring back what druid really is: a true versatile hybrid, and then add up the rest of the needed spells and abilities for each spec.

    If you aren't guardian or pick its afinity, bear form pretty much has no use whatsoever, soak 2 hits instead of one before dying? that's what I'd call a tanky form. Cat form without feral spec or its afinity is just a slightly more useful travel form: Prowl and Dash, no use outside of that...

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    Maybe not a 100% dps nor 100% tank
    Clearly someone doesnt remember Dragon soul Bearcatting, the whole reason blizzard Split Feral and Guardian. 100% tank and 95% Feral druid in one package. it was broken. i was my guilds main tank and was also mid tier DPS at the same time. and i wasnt even particularly good at bearcatting.

    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    if only people would accept the role of hybrid class/spec, an off tank that can dps better than other tanks while they don't tank but bit worse than pure dps when tank is not needed, its pretty simple concept
    Yup, So is the downside to Hybrid. its called Hybrid tax, where a Hybrid class was automatically about 15% behind a Pure class, just because they were a hybrid. like being a boomkin, feral, arms war, fury war, Frost or Unholy DK, Shadow Priest, Elemental / Enhancement Shaman, Ret paladin or Windwalker monk? dont like tanking or healing? Tough. -15% dps for you, just because you CAN do those things even if you dont WANT to.

    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    since people want to be #1 dps and #1 tank its not gonna happen; sadly
    Oversimplification. and wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    either way it is most definitely doable if only there was will for it
    it was a thing and blizzard got rid of it. so clearly no, its not a doable thing, dispite one random forum goers opinion (who isnt even posting on the official forums about it)
    Till water is gone, Till shade is gone. Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath. To spit in Sightblinders eye on the last day.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlehoff View Post
    Clearly someone doesnt remember Dragon soul Bearcatting, the whole reason blizzard Split Feral and Guardian. 100% tank and 95% Feral druid in one package. it was broken. i was my guilds main tank and was also mid tier DPS at the same time. and i wasnt even particularly good at bearcatting.
    CLEARLY. also let's remove sub rogue spec... altogether, just like that, only because at some point they happened to be unreasonably OP due to some oversight, yeah- sounds like a plan. hell, why stop there? ret's remove every class/spec that at some point happened to be unreasonably op for some reason!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlehoff View Post
    Yup, So is the downside to Hybrid. its called Hybrid tax, where a Hybrid class was automatically about 15% behind a Pure class, just because they were a hybrid. like being a boomkin, feral, arms war, fury war, Frost or Unholy DK, Shadow Priest, Elemental / Enhancement Shaman, Ret paladin or Windwalker monk? dont like tanking or healing? Tough. -15% dps for you, just because you CAN do those things even if you dont WANT to.
    "hybrid tax" you are talking about is long time relic of the past, and was a stupid idea to begin with. the "new" hybrid tax I am speaking about is just result of consideration of the "whole" package. Just as, for instance you can't expect your class/spec to deal as much damage on stationary fights as classes that are punished on movement when your class is doing very well on movement heavy ones. Another example would be disc priest. You can't have them deal too much healing or damage as you have to account for both. If they were cappable of healing 100% as any other healer, and provide somehow meaningful damage on top of that, that would be a clear advantage over other healers (not taking into account other utilities one can have for sake or an argument) for this exact very reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlehoff View Post
    Oversimplification. and wrong.
    rather it's just your not understanding of the topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlehoff View Post
    it was a thing and blizzard got rid of it. so clearly no, its not a doable thing, dispite one random forum goers opinion (who isnt even posting on the official forums about it)
    It should not have happened in the first place. I didn't roll druid just to play a pure tank or dps. Besides; I do post on official forums regarding this subject too.
    Last edited by FAILoZOFF; 2017-10-27 at 09:20 PM.

  7. #27
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    Yep hybrids are totally missing the hybrid feel. All buffs are gone, hell you can barely cast 3 heals that don't do shit for healing before your oom.

    I understand why they did change it but I don't have to like it.

  8. #28
    Agree 100%.

    i actually wouldn't be mad at going even further.

    Feral = bear and cat
    Balance = moonkin and resto

    How you would achieve this and make clear distinctions while maintaining their strengths and weaknesses, not letting them be useless and not letting them be OP, I have no idea.

  9. #29
    I'm OK with spliting feral and guardian but what I really miss is being a jack for all trades. Right now, if you aren't guardian and don't have the guardian affinity, Bear Form does literally nothing, it has 1 ability and it's tankiness is reduced to take 2 maybe 3 hits before dying. Cat form without being feral or feral affinity it's just a tool form for Prowl and Dash. And we literally only have 1 heal, when historically we've got 6 baseline.

    I can understand the prunning of ability, but druids, the very definition of versatility, should have all 4 affinity talents as baseline ablities before chosing a spec, and then build the specs around those.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar Hao View Post
    I'm OK with spliting feral and guardian but what I really miss is being a jack for all trades. Right now, if you aren't guardian and don't have the guardian affinity, Bear Form does literally nothing, it has 1 ability and it's tankiness is reduced to take 2 maybe 3 hits before dying. Cat form without being feral or feral affinity it's just a tool form for Prowl and Dash. And we literally only have 1 heal, when historically we've got 6 baseline.

    I can understand the prunning of ability, but druids, the very definition of versatility, should have all 4 affinity talents as baseline ablities before chosing a spec, and then build the specs around those.
    This is pretty much true of every spec with its various affinities. The only spec/affinity combo that feels truly hybrid to me is Resto with Feral Affinity.

  11. #31
    I also regret the separation between bear and cat into 2 specs. The worst part now is that the original reason to do it has disappeared!

    Back then, the problem was that 10 man raiding was supposed to be just as hard as 25 man raiding. But having a Feral tanking in 10 man gave the raid a huge advantage, because that Feral could really deliver some awesome dps when not tanking (and that was especially true in the Dragon Soul raid, at the end of Cataclysm). Instead of building that into every other tanking spec (which I think would have been cool gameplay for all tanks), they decided to actively nerf Feral by separating the 2 specs.

    Now, we don't have that situation anymore. The boss fights are quite different (so tanks not tanking is a lot less frequent), 20 man Mythic is where it's at competition-wise (so one tank doing more damage when shapeshifted is not that big of a deal as it was in 10 man) and all tank specs have in fact got more dps.

    But Blizzard hasn't reversed their decision. Which leaves us with Guardian feeling like 2/3 of a spec. Feral feels a tad more fleshed out, but still lacks a lot of hybridity. And it's not about being OP. There is no doubt that all 4 Druid specs are doing REALLY well right now - to the point where it's probably the leading class in the game (and that's not hyperbole: Druid is the most used class in both competitive PvE and PvP right now). But the problem is that the Druid class was originally build around the idea of delivering non-trivial tanking/healing/dps OUTSIDE the chosen spec. And we did: Tranquility as non-Resto, tanking as non-Feral, ranged dps as non-Balance etc. Now we can deliver 4 million healing before going OOM with Resto affinity (that's 80% of a raid geared non-tank - and it takes a lot of time to heal that much), around 200k dps as Moonkin with Balance affinity (that's around or below 20% of a raid geared dps spec) and so on.

    We choose affinities for the passive abilities - basically making that talent row the one with least gain for a talent in the game right now.

    There is a fix, of course. And it's pretty simple: Buff ALL the affinities to a level where we can deliver around 50% of what a main spec would deliver. Fx a Feral as a Moonkin in Balance affinity, we should be able to deliver around 500k dps single target. With Resto affinity, we should be able to deliver 50% of the output of a specced Resto druid - and have a mana pool allowing us to do so for more than the 5-6 casts we have right now.

    Allowing Druids to do so would be amazing - making all Hybrid classes (Shaman, Paladin, Monk - and Warrior, Demon Hunter, Death Knight) would be fantastic. And why not? The old "pure" dps specs have so many awesome and quite unique abilities right now that Blizzard will never give to Hybrids. It's time to give back to Hybrids what was taken away over several expansions.

  12. #32
    two reasons for the split. raids and pvp. people were crying 24/7 because of this and finally they got what they wanted. Also it was kinda unfair to have a class that could do both roles, while other classes still had to make a choice.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    I also regret the separation between bear and cat into 2 specs. The worst part now is that the original reason to do it has disappeared!

    Back then, the problem was that 10 man raiding was supposed to be just as hard as 25 man raiding. But having a Feral tanking in 10 man gave the raid a huge advantage, because that Feral could really deliver some awesome dps when not tanking (and that was especially true in the Dragon Soul raid, at the end of Cataclysm). Instead of building that into every other tanking spec (which I think would have been cool gameplay for all tanks), they decided to actively nerf Feral by separating the 2 specs.
    exactly, trade off for feral (i mean "original" cat/bear) being better at dealing damage while in cat form would be worse damage compared to other tanks while in bear form, it would make sense especially now when tanks are quite good actually at dealing damage on their own

    Quote Originally Posted by Einst3in View Post
    two reasons for the split. raids and pvp. people were crying 24/7 because of this and finally they got what they wanted. Also it was kinda unfair to have a class that could do both roles, while other classes still had to make a choice.
    that's quite a BS reasoning man, really; It's NOT like feral hasn't been quite OP on numerous occasions even after the split, this comes down to just balance and not the core concept or idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar Hao View Post
    I'm OK with spliting feral and guardian but what I really miss is being a jack for all trades. Right now, if you aren't guardian and don't have the guardian affinity, Bear Form does literally nothing, it has 1 ability and it's tankiness is reduced to take 2 maybe 3 hits before dying. Cat form without being feral or feral affinity it's just a tool form for Prowl and Dash. And we literally only have 1 heal, when historically we've got 6 baseline.

    I can understand the prunning of ability, but druids, the very definition of versatility, should have all 4 affinity talents as baseline ablities before chosing a spec, and then build the specs around those.
    not even that as affinities while indeed providing "some" skills to the table, don't bring anything else; the essence: whole mechanics of given form

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanite View Post
    Agree 100%.

    i actually wouldn't be mad at going even further.

    Feral = bear and cat
    Balance = moonkin and resto

    How you would achieve this and make clear distinctions while maintaining their strengths and weaknesses, not letting them be useless and not letting them be OP, I have no idea.
    Hey! I was thinking about exact same thing some time ago but decided to just forget as even such obvious and straight forward thing as feral being a "hybrid" got scrapped so there's no snowballs chance in hell of even discussing 2 specs for druids. But the idea imho is kind of great. Perhaps little problematic in actual "holy trinity" setup, but fitting the class perfectly well, ie druid being a hybrid yet split into fitting themes or being melee and caster.

    Like, do not misunderstand me please! I do not want to play OP druid or some other BS. I just want a return of playstyle I loved and enjoyed and that actually made me choose a druid in the first place. This game could use a bit more class diversity. As right now as feral druid, I have little to no abilities in human form, almost no abilities in bear form that is if I take the "right" affinity, but still definitely don't have any mechanics supporting anything else than cat form. It feels just awful and awkward.

  14. #34
    Funny thing is feral is still godly filling niche tank roles yet you still complain.
    Cat artifact weapon has built in 5 seconds of god tank when going leaving cat form every 30 seconds with protection of ashmane.
    You have bear form 200% armor and 55% stam and 2 charges of 10 seconds 50% mitigate all survival instincts. That's somewhere around 8million HP with 6% affinity and 53% mitigation from armor before ironfur and 2 charges of frenzied regen.

    Taking tank debuff on mythic goroth when one tank dies is nice. Tanking mythic mistress when a tank gets eaten by a shark is nice.
    Pugging heroic KJ as a feral is nice, can expect the fail tanks and fail immunity people and soak 3 of the big swirls yourself super easily with bear hp and SI.'
    I'm sure there's things you could intentionally apply it to if you wanted to cheese other things, this is just saves that have happened to me.

  15. #35

    Feral <---> Guardian split

    There is no doubt that Guardian affinity actually works to some degree.

    But it’s also quite clear that a Feral going Moonkin with Balance affinity - or healing with Resto affinity - is a waste of time.
    Last edited by Whitepaw; 2017-10-30 at 01:13 PM.

  16. #36
    what else do your do when you healer que random heroic, resto affinity is great.

    moonkin having a cooldown is wierd, keep thinking of it but haven't remembered to try making use of sunfire aoe at all in m+.

    It annoys me a bunch that my feral bleeds lose power when leave cat form healing m+, that's another affinity i make a lot of use out of.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    what else do your do when you healer que random heroic, resto affinity is great.

    moonkin having a cooldown is wierd, keep thinking of it but haven't remembered to try making use of sunfire aoe at all in m+.

    It annoys me a bunch that my feral bleeds lose power when leave cat form healing m+, that's another affinity i make a lot of use out of.
    I don’t understand - do you queue for a healer spot, as Feral with Resto Affinity? If so, good luck and have fun. You can heal 4 million HP before going out of mana. That’s around 40-50% of a tank’s HP pool.

    There is no use for Moonfire/Sunfire AoE, if you have Balance Affinity as a Feral - the damage output is trivial by design. Or, in other words: You do so little damage that it doesn’t matter.

    You say you loose power on your bleeds when you leave cat form. That’s true, if you use Savage Roar - and it’s one of the reasons why that talent now sucks.

    It wasn’t long ago that the leading Blizzard devs voiced the opinion that Druids should be a lot more about shapeshifting and using the entire Druid arsenal. Since then, they have basically made Feral into its own sub-class.

  18. #38
    You know, It wouldn't be half as bad as it is, if only feral wouldn't mean "cat spec" and guardian "bear spec"; I mean the names of these specs don't strictly suggest that really.
    So feral would have somehow "equal" use of cat and bear form, for instance cat would be for ST and bear for AoE? And guardians would have their own use for agile form that is worse at taking beating but can avoid better or something.
    Ideally as I said, I'd prefer to go back to original idea of fear (or even druid) as it would be much easier to design anyway.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    I don’t understand - do you queue for a healer spot, as Feral with Resto Affinity? If so, good luck and have fun. You can heal 4 million HP before going out of mana. That’s around 40-50% of a tank’s HP pool.

    There is no use for Moonfire/Sunfire AoE, if you have Balance Affinity as a Feral - the damage output is trivial by design. Or, in other words: You do so little damage that it doesn’t matter.

    You say you loose power on your bleeds when you leave cat form. That’s true, if you use Savage Roar - and it’s one of the reasons why that talent now sucks.

    It wasn’t long ago that the leading Blizzard devs voiced the opinion that Druids should be a lot more about shapeshifting and using the entire Druid arsenal. Since then, they have basically made Feral into its own sub-class.
    Resto affinity as feral gets you swiftmend and rejuv between pulls alongside instant regrowths while making everything die fast.

    Unfortunately quite literally as resto with feral affinity you deal astronomically less damage when you leave cat form. If i pounce something with rake as resto then leave cat form it will do 240k damage then 255k in 5 ticks. If i pounce something and stay in cat form it will tick for 2.2million in 5 ticks.
    Same thing with rip, 335k total damage in 12 ticks out of cat form or 2.5million if stay in cat form the duration.

    Basically bleeds suck outside of form so better off to dump energy into shred, swipe and bite when dpsing as resto while keeping up moonfire/sunfire(around 1.5million each).

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Resto affinity as feral gets you swiftmend and rejuv between pulls alongside instant regrowths while making everything die fast.

    Unfortunately quite literally as resto with feral affinity you deal astronomically less damage when you leave cat form. If i pounce something with rake as resto then leave cat form it will do 240k damage then 255k in 5 ticks. If i pounce something and stay in cat form it will tick for 2.2million in 5 ticks.
    Same thing with rip, 335k total damage in 12 ticks out of cat form or 2.5million if stay in cat form the duration.

    Basically bleeds suck outside of form so better off to dump energy into shred, swipe and bite when dpsing as resto while keeping up moonfire/sunfire(around 1.5million each).
    Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t aware of the loss of bleed damage when shifting out of cat form as Resto with Feral Affinity.

    I don’t see us losing healing from our HoTs when shifting back into cat/bear/moonkin form.

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