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  1. #1

    A Frenzy Warrior Point Of View

    UPDATE : More in depth discussion here

    Greetings fellow warriors,

    I know there has already been a Frenzy post in there, but the only one I could find was just some speculations about, yes or no, is it good ?
    The answer is yes.
    Another question one may ask would be, is it better than the other talent Inner Rage ?
    The answer is much more complicated and I would like to say yes and no.

    Now I'm not going to write any guide on how to play with Frenzy (because I'm not very good with simcraft and I still don't know what optimized rotations you should be using), but I definitely played with it a crapton, and I would like to give it the credit it deserves, because it is good, it's really good.

    First of all, let's mention that you sim more with Frenzy, almost regardless of your build. Not by a lot but theoretically, in pure single target, Frenzy is better than IR. (I want to share a link that shows it but I can't since it's my first post)

    Now, don't get me wrong, Frenzy is much more demanding because you lose the sooo comfortable ("versatile" like many say) 150% raging blow dealing so much damage, now if it deals 600k (both hands) you can be happy becuase you just crit compared to the 1M5 you would have dealt, it just feels really weird and weak.
    So the big point with Frenzy is that it's much more demanding in the way that you have to manage you rage in a much more quicker way, never leaving the boss' ass, playing the rotation basically perfectly,... and still, you will always be behind IR in practice... until the execute phase.

    What really makes Frenzy shine is the execute phase, simply because with the haste you have, you are able to make your Juggernaut stacks grow much faster. Combined with the head legendary, you generate soo much rage, it really makes it pretty insane. You are able to cast more executes during your battle cry at really high stacks. You also get more Rage of the Valarjar procs, so more crit chance, more auto-attacks, which also mean more rage,...

    My point by mentionning all of this, is that I think Frenzy has its place in the meta (that I know is going to change in about 3 weeks), but not everywhere... I think that in single target it's really good, but on short fights, Inner Rage will always be better no matter what! On longer fights, Frenzy is able to outperform Inner Rage and can make a pretty big difference.
    In progress especially, if there is a boss you haven't killed yet, or just once but not everyone is familiar with the strat yet and people tend to die, if the execute phase tends to last long enough, Frenzy could really make your DPS fly, but also help a lot to kill the boss faster !

    I have myself been playing Frenzy for a couple of months now (3-4). I believe I started using it when we were doing progress on Normal Nighthold, since then I fell in love with the spec, the fact that the 15%+ haste increase makes the gameplay challenging and even more nervous. But I haven't forgotten Inner Rage, I come back to it rather often to compare both, trying to see which is best on which boss and why.
    For example, on Chronomatic anomaly in Mythic, the fast phase makes Frenzy completely unplayable, same with Elisande when you get the pink haste buff. You then gain so much with the 150% raging blows that Frenzy becomes pretty useless (aside from really unplayable )
    But on all of the other bosses, and I haven't even mentionned how good it is in sustained multitarget, I believe it is a viable talent that can compete very closely with Inner Rage.

    And all of this saddens me because I feel really lonely, I can't find anyone who enjoys the spec, anyone with some knowledge that could help me bring the spec even higher. So I hope that with this, I'm able to reach out to one of you guys who is crazy enough to experience it the way I am.

    Since it's my first post, I am not able to share any link and images so if you are curious enough, feel free to look at my logs on WarcraftLogs by searching for "Earalås", i'm on the Hyjal-EU server.

    One may say that your perfs are completely dependant to your raid comp/strat/situations, and that person will be correct.
    However yesterday, me and my guildies killed Mythic Krosus a second time, the first one being this Monday (so 2 days earlier). Let me tell you that the fights were extremely similar. First kill I played it safe and picked Inner Rage since I wasn't familiar with the mechanics (when to burst, dealing with the adds,...) but got used to it and the kill was super clean, nobody died, killed it a little bit after phase 4. And so was the 2nd kill. Almost the same. Adds wise it was fairly well dealt with. Also, exactly same stuff. But that 2nd time, I played with Frenzy... So for you lazy ones here is the DPS.

    • 963,133.0k 904 5:27 May 31, 2017 1332222 ( Frenzy)
    • 937,702.0k 904 5.37 May 29, 2017 1332232 (Inner rage)

    So it's really damn close ! which means it's competitive, now is one better than the other? I don't know. Inner Rage probably becomes a bit better while Krosus takes less and less time to kill. (but before the execute phase, i believe I was around 900k (maybe a bit lower) which is not bad at all)

    Another good example would be Trilliax ; I switch almost every kill from Inner Rage to Frenzy to compare, and all of my best perfs are with Frenzy

    • 904,767.0k 904 4:54 May 31, 2017 2332222 (Frenzy)
    • 901,690.0k 901 4:50 May 24, 2017 2332222 (Frenzy)
    • 890,429.0k 898 5:21 May 03, 2017 2332222 (Frenzy) --> that one got me a 100% ilvl
    • 881,044.0k 901 4:53 May 22, 2017 2332232 (Inner Rage)
    • 862,661.0k 901 4:54 May 10, 2017 2332232 (Inner Rage)

    I know, I know, fights are not the same, stuff is maybe a bit different, maybe people died. I'm just really trying to prove that it is really competitive if you know how to play with Frenzy !

    Here is with Mythic Aluriel (to show you the potential in multi target):

    • 1,255,180.0k 904 6:15 May 29, 2017 1312222 (Wrecking ball + Frenzy) --> that one also got me a 100% ilvl yaay
    • 1,154,520.0k 903 7:08 May 22, 2017 1312232 (Wrecking ball + Inner Rage)

    For this one, I know it strongly depends on the amount of burst aoe in the raid. If you have full Elemental Shaman, you should probably go full singletarget hahaha.

    I know some people don't like it, maybe they are not aware of all the subtleties of the rotation (at least the ones I came up with, since I haven't found any guide), how to deal with situations when you play with it, and so on... maybe they are aware and still don't like it.
    Play whatever you like. I fucking love the entire class, I love Arms, I love Prot, I love Inner rage too! I just love Frenzy better and I'm hoping I can make you take a look in the spec to see if you can enjoy it as much I as do.
    Again, I'm not trying to prove which is better than the other one, I'm just trying to prove that Frenzy is viable if you thought otherwise

    Maybe if enough people are interested, I can share some of my knowledge on how I play the spec. I could even do some researches on the optimal cycles even though I think I pretty much figured it out.

    This post is already pretty long so I'll stop right here, hoping to get some of your feedback brother warriors. Warrior forever !!
    (sorry for my english, if I made some mistakes here and there, I'm only french :3)

    Cheers <3
    Last edited by Emimi100; 2017-06-03 at 10:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Good write up. The sims do indeed weigh Frenzy just as, if not more, heavily than Inner Rage, and while that is partly due to the sims more ideal Execute phase, I've said for awhile that I've been waiting for someone to really work at proving it in a live environment. However, keep in mind that it's not just the Execute phase, but also Draught itself which weights Frenzy, given the trinkets 3 second lock has a negative interaction with the stat and squeezing extra GCDs into Battle Cry.

    Outside of pure Single Target, another potential build I've been experimenting with on the PTR and in raid testing is using Frenzy to maximize AoE burst in a Gul'dan style encounter; by stacking up the Haste buff before Battle Cry, to fit an extra GCD inside those AoE burst windows. That said, it's just a concept, and I'm really not a fan of the way Frenzy flows with T20; I find the stability of Inner Rage works much better with the tier bonuses. Still, the potential for a Massacre Ring enabled, Frenzied Execute phase could be pretty compelling under the right conditions.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Wow nice post ! People just spit on Frenzy because they're not skilled enough to use it
    Last edited by mmoc47c8f50577; 2017-06-01 at 12:05 PM.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakkx View Post
    Wow nice post ! People just spit on Frenzy because they're not skilled enough to use it
    Or they just hate how it plays. If we could take IR AND Frenzy this could be more enjoyable.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlafmangel View Post
    Or they just hate how it plays. If we could take IR AND Frenzy this could be more enjoyable.
    I actually prayed very strongly that the ring wouldn't allow IR and Frenzy to be played at the same time. First, it would be way too OP, second, you would lose the whole charm of Frenzy (for me at least) which is that you're not playing with IR (kind of the rebel feeling, you know? ), and you're not constantly outputing heavy damage, you're basically a machine gun that does a lot of small damage. But I guess that's just taste, and I respect that

    Also note that because of there isn't any documentation/guide about that talent, I doubt people are playing it correctly, and many people spread very misleading informations about it... I do think the gameplay is extremely fun and in no way it becomes boring rotationwise, to me at least.
    Last edited by Emimi100; 2017-06-01 at 12:30 PM.

  6. #6
    I am pretty sure this was posted, i answered and told me no thread found, and there it is again >_>

    Frenzy is too clunky compared to Inner Rage, thats the only issue as to not play it, tried it myself a bit too not as seriously as the OP obviously (good write up) but its so so weird without Inner Rage.

    I mean this whole spam RB when Enraged and keep Frenzy up etc et
    Last edited by potis; 2017-06-01 at 02:19 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    I am pretty sure this was posted, i answered and told me no thread found, and there it is again >_>

    Frenzy is too clunky compared to Inner Rage, thats the only issue as to not play it, tried it myself a bit too not as seriously as the OP obviously (good write up) but its so so weird without Inner Rage.

    I mean this whole spam RB when Enraged and keep Frenzy up etc et

    Well, I never spam RB when enraged. I casted 21 raging blow during the entire fight of Krosus, for 40 rampages and 81 bloodthirsts. That's what I mean when I say I think people got the rotation wrong ^^

    And yes I had to repost it because the first one bugged out for some reasons :/ sorry about that

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Emimi100 View Post
    Well, I never spam RB when enraged. I casted 21 raging blow during the entire fight of Krosus, for 40 rampages and 81 bloodthirsts. That's what I mean when I say I think people got the rotation wrong ^^

    And yes I had to repost it because the first one bugged out for some reasons :/ sorry about that
    Then just ends up being fundamental mistakes in the fury warrior if our main damaging ability isnt used

    As fury was mostly at least.

    Either way, too clunky for me and i no longer raid seriously for years now to min/max everything, the 1mil dps from inner rage usage is fineee.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Then just ends up being fundamental mistakes in the fury warrior if our main damaging ability isnt used

    As fury was mostly at least.

    Either way, too clunky for me and i no longer raid seriously for years now to min/max everything, the 1mil dps from inner rage usage is fineee.
    It's ok if you don't like it I respect that. Like I said, it's about taste. It just kills me to hear that Frenzy is shit, Frenzy is a joke, Frenzy this, Frenzy that, IR>Frenzy. I just wanted to clarify that and that's why I made this post.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Emimi100 View Post
    It's ok if you don't like it I respect that. Like I said, it's about taste. It just kills me to hear that Frenzy is shit, Frenzy is a joke, Frenzy this, Frenzy that, IR>Frenzy. I just wanted to clarify that and that's why I made this post.
    Honestly I haven't seen anyone say that with regard to output. If you sim it, and we have to assume that the warrior APL people are doing a good job, it ends up being very close to or even ahead of IR in some situations. Personally I just don't like the style of it, though I can see some really liking it, case in point.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Emimi100 View Post
    That's what I mean when I say I think people got the rotation wrong ^^
    I am definetely one of them people. When I tried frenzy on dummy I felt I had to spam RB during enrage. But also had to use FS for buff and still use BT. so things got out of control and I went back to IR.

    Can you explain how to play with Frenzy? rotation, stats, priorities etc...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LazyCoding View Post
    I am definetely one of them people. When I tried frenzy on dummy I felt I had to spam RB during enrage. But also had to use FS for buff and still use BT. so things got out of control and I went back to IR.

    Can you explain how to play with Frenzy? rotation, stats, priorities etc...
    Hey! Of course, I would love to. I'll write all I know about it in a near future, stay tuned

  13. #13
    I'd definitely be interested in learning the playstyle as well, looking forward to the post.
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  14. #14
    I don't think this is viable without Ceann-Ar Charger, simply because your ability to cycle enough rage for permanent Frothing Berserker isn't quite there without it. I don't understand how you can pull those numbers with minimal Raging Blow usage, *especially* given 4/4 Pulse of Battle having so much synergy. Given that Bloodthirst and Furious Slash deal half the damage of Raging Blow, it seems like a huge DPS loss not to spam Raging Blow as much as possible, while only using Furious Slash to keep up the buff.

    Our gearing is not too far off from each other, with you mostly just having a lot more mastery on me, but also having the helm over me. (I could buy the belt for more haste, but replacing a 910 for min/max on a haste test seems like a waste of gold right now.)

    The cloak feels difficult to keep up with precisely because Bloodthirst feels like a burden to the intuitive rotation. With that much haste you can be gaining tremendous amounts of rage (and overall damage) from Pulse of Battle, and with tier and high haste you can spam it most of the way to another full Rampage. As a result, Bloodthirst feels like just a filler. I'll definitely be willing to give this another serious go, but not before having the helm.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eninya View Post
    I don't think this is viable without Ceann-Ar Charger, simply because your ability to cycle enough rage for permanent Frothing Berserker isn't quite there without it. I don't understand how you can pull those numbers with minimal Raging Blow usage, *especially* given 4/4 Pulse of Battle having so much synergy. Given that Bloodthirst and Furious Slash deal half the damage of Raging Blow, it seems like a huge DPS loss not to spam Raging Blow as much as possible, while only using Furious Slash to keep up the buff.
    Without inner rage, im pretty sure bloodthirst actually does more damage than raging blow without more than 4 points in wrath and fury

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    Without inner rage, im pretty sure bloodthirst actually does more damage than raging blow without more than 4 points in wrath and fury
    My max BT crits are around 360k, with around 300k on Furious Slash, but combined Raging Blow (without Inner Rage) is around 700-750k.

    Oathblood isn't often enough to justify hitting Bloodthirst more, either.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Eninya View Post
    My max BT crits are around 360k, with around 300k on Furious Slash, but combined Raging Blow (without Inner Rage) is around 700-750k.

    Oathblood isn't often enough to justify hitting Bloodthirst more, either.
    I really don't know what you're swinging.


    22:56:13> [Battlecruisr's] Bloodthirst hits [Lesser Sparring Partner] for 763479 Physical.(Critical)
    22:56:15> [Battlecruisr's] Raging Blow hits [Lesser Sparring Partner] for 541804 Physical.(Critical)
    22:56:15> [Battlecruisr's] Raging Blow hits [Lesser Sparring Partner] for 275587 Physical.(Critical)

    23:04:03> [Battlecruisr's] Furious Slash hits [Lesser Sparring Partner] for 548655 Physical.(Critical)
    Last edited by Anuibus; 2017-06-02 at 06:04 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    Without inner rage, im pretty sure bloodthirst actually does more damage than raging blow without more than 4 points in wrath and fury
    With 5/5 wrath and fury RB does 1-2% more dmg than BT in same conditions for me.

    Difference is with Frenzy over IR, RB becomes spammable, BT isnt there always so not surprising how people wonder how he doesnt use RB as often.

    Combined with Endless Rage and the extra haste there is no room for RB so its not surprising.
    Last edited by potis; 2017-06-02 at 06:08 AM.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    For me on live without IR rb hits the same as ws while bt can hit for almost 50% more. Playing with 47% haste tho, even tho i run a little mast heavy (56%) aint easy. With lego hat i cap rage all the time and i can't really tell if rampage is "hasted", ie less than 1.5sec gcd and if not then this is the major drawback of frenzy (besides maintaining the buff).

    edit: Maybe a full/very high mastery gear set similar to arms makes it better. Also i thought i would see very high auto attack dmg but was not as high as expected, 20% or so without Melandrus.
    Last edited by mmoc73263b3bd5; 2017-06-02 at 06:36 AM.

  20. #20
    Hahaha well my playstyle involves indeed the least amount of RB possible.
    My max BT crits are around 360k
    Well then there is something wrong because my minimum BTs are around 400k, maximum being a bit more than 700k.
    The thing is that you can make BT crit extremely often whereas your RB deals an incredibly bad amount of damage when it doesn't crit.
    I run this spec with ~13% crit so in average, my RB generate 5+0.26x4 which is roughly 6. My average cast when it doesn't crit is 126k (average being left hand included) soo around 250k (when both hands don't crit). I mean that's bad, really bad.
    The thing is that Eninya is probably right for ST fights, at least for the way I play it which is basically make your BT crits everytime.
    BT on cooldown is probably the most important aspect to this spec in my opinion simply because of Oathblood and Ceann-ar Charger.
    Don't forget that if Oathblood procs and you have a stack of taste for blood, if your original BT doesn't crit BUT your Oathblood proc crits, you don't lose your taste for blood stack(s). Which is extremely powerful. If they both crit, you generate 36 rage !! (with Ceann-ar Charger)

    So you guys are probably right about spamming RB if you don't have that legendary. I'm gonna do some testing when I get back from work and probably spend some time today on writing all I know about it, because there is so much more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kostattoo View Post
    For me on live without IR rb hits the same as ws while bt can hit for almost 50% more. Playing with 47% haste tho, even tho i run a little mast heavy (56%) aint easy. With lego hat i cap rage all the time and i can't really tell if rampage is "hasted", ie less than 1.5sec gcd and if not then this is the major drawback of frenzy (besides maintaining the buff).

    edit: Maybe a full/very high mastery gear set similar to arms makes it better. Also i thought i would see very high auto attack dmg but was not as high as expected, 20% or so without Melandrus.
    If your execute phase doesn't last long enough, your autos will always be your first damaging "ability". Still, it doesn't make Melandrus worth it. You loose ~2000 master from a master/haste ring which means roughly 7% of damage on all of your abilities, and that's not worth it.

    Also keep in mind that Frenzy buff actually scales with haste. With my current build, I run approximately 32% haste, when I'm fully stacked on Frenzy, my haste hits a good 50% (a little bit more)

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