Anthem: Bioware's next Mass Effect-like IP

[Wilian]

Where did the myth that Bioware has no experience with MP games come from? NWN was one of the best online RPG experiences of early to late 00s with amazing toolset that had you craft easy adventures for you and your friends while many of the servers from back in the day still run with their persistent worlds.

It was created for multiplayer/DMing after it proved to be popular already in Baldur's Gate.

[Edge-]

NWN was one of the best online RPG experiences of early to late 00s with amazing toolset that had you craft easy adventures for you and your friends while many of the servers from back in the day still run with their persistent worlds.

Extremely different type of multiplayer, as all they did was give players the tools to create their own content rather than design content specifically for a multiplayer, always-online title. Now that they're having to design a game around being multiplayer only, they don't have a ton of experience with that and didn't bother listening to their studio that does - BW Austin.

Also, I'm sure only a few folks are left at BW who worked on that title : P

[Wilian]

Extremely different type of multiplayer, as all they did was give players the tools to create their own content rather than design content specifically for a multiplayer, always-online title. Now that they're having to design a game around being multiplayer only, they don't have a ton of experience with that and didn't bother listening to their studio that does - BW Austin.

Also, I'm sure only a few folks are left at BW who worked on that title : P

I was more about the idea that somehow Bioware has no history or experience of the MP games which they clearly do, NWN was for all intents and purposes a multiplayer platform with a slapped on campaign to show what the toolset is capable of. Now of course Bioware hasn't had Bioware people for years and years so we don't have that expertise anymore but the company isn't living in some abyss devoid of history. :P

[Edge-]

I was more about the idea that somehow Bioware has no history or experience of the MP games which they clearly do, NWN was for all intents and purposes a multiplayer platform with a slapped on campaign to show what the toolset is capable of. Now of course Bioware hasn't had Bioware people for years and years so we don't have that expertise anymore but the company isn't living in some abyss devoid of history. :P

Except, again, they don't. Giving players the tools to create content is very different from designing a multiplayer game. They didn't create NW as a multiplayer, online-only game for players in the way Anthem is. NW was a single player game first and foremost, with a toolkit that allowed players to create online content to share with others.

One is a game. One is a toolset. Very different things. Though we agree, this is very much a different BW than the one that created NW. Part of that is natural, a long time has passed and folks don't stay in one place forever. But another part is that the "spirit" behind old BW seems to have left the building with them.

[Wilian]

Except, again, they don't. Giving players the tools to create content is very different from designing a multiplayer game. They didn't create NW as a multiplayer, online-only game for players in the way Anthem is. NW was a single player game first and foremost, with a toolkit that allowed players to create online content to share with others.

One is a game. One is a toolset. Very different things. Though we agree, this is very much a different BW than the one that created NW. Part of that is natural, a long time has passed and folks don't stay in one place forever. But another part is that the "spirit" behind old BW seems to have left the building with them.

Eh that isn't true. NWN was designed from getgo as multiplayer experience. If I remember correctly it wasn't even meant to have single player component originally and was intended as DnD toolset for multiplayer with multiple types of server support. That's why it lacked things like multiple companions as those were sort of hacked in when the decision was reversed as per the leaked 2008 documents.

Also the reason why the main campaign was so extremely bareboned compared to the vastly more in-depth and better expansions that got real focus.

[szechuan]

but they ended up trying to awkwardly make a destiny clone that wasn't destiny but was supposed to be more like D3 with the top priorities being flying and graphics because they needed to impress the EA guy.

Because they had nothing else to show for it. I don't remember the EA executive saying they should make the game look prettier either.

If anything after 7 years a lot of people would in fact expect more.

People seem to put EA guy on a pedestal because those 2 things are some of the best things they did in the game... ignoring that they're the best things in the game

Because it's convenient for your argument?

because they needed them to be in order to specifically impress EA guy meaning everything else took a back seat.

Wrong, Bioware didn't even know if they wanted Jetpacks in the game or not, everything else? They couldn't even figure out a way to let you shoot and fly at the same time.

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I doubt that. Many people want an Iron Man-like shooter and Anthem is exact that.

I disagree, Iron Man can jet pack and shoot at the same time, You can't in this game.

[rhorle]

Except, again, they don't.

For certain specific case yes they did not have expererince. But they have enough general multiplayer experience to not have blunder with somethings. Anthem is essentially a fleshed out version of ME:3 MP (Andromeda was pretty much a copy of ME:3). They tried to add it to DA3. They have SW:TOR. They were working on Warhammer Online (cancelled in 2013). I am sure the C&C game was going to have multiplayer.

They have been around enough and have enough success that they shouldn't be novices even with a some-what new genre. I say somewhat new because they are not new to shooters and not new to MMO's. Though they are consistent. Because some of the flaws of Anthem have showed up in other games. Which is why it is hard to accept that "they have no experience with this type of game" when they are repeating some of the same mistakes.

[Baconeggcheese]

Eh that isn't true. NWN was designed from getgo as multiplayer experience. If I remember correctly it wasn't even meant to have single player component originally and was intended as DnD toolset for multiplayer with multiple types of server support. That's why it lacked things like multiple companions as those were sort of hacked in when the decision was reversed as per the leaked 2008 documents.

Also the reason why the main campaign was so extremely bareboned compared to the vastly more in-depth and better expansions that got real focus.

BW made SWTOR, so they directly had people who work* on that game right now to pull from and apparently they just didn't.

From what we know this game was mismanaged to hell.

[Edge-]

For certain specific case yes they did not have expererince. But they have enough general multiplayer experience to not have blunder with somethings. Anthem is essentially a fleshed out version of ME:3 MP (Andromeda was pretty much a copy of ME:3). They tried to add it to DA3. They have SW:TOR. They were working on Warhammer Online (cancelled in 2013). I am sure the C&C game was going to have multiplayer.

They have some for sure, but for very small experiences like in ME as you say, not as a core part of the game.

SWTOR: That was BW Austin, not Edmonton. And per the Kotaku report Austin tried to give advise to Edmonton on what did/didn't work for them to help them avoid repeating mistakes. But Edmonton reported didn't pay them any attention.

WAR was Mythic actually, are you thinking of the brief period when EA was slapping the BW brand on studios (BW-Mythic for WAR, BW-Victory for C&C)? Because I don't recall BW ever working on a proper Warhammer game. So those aren't relevant as they're BW in name only.

They have been around enough and have enough success that they shouldn't be novices even with a some-what new genre. I say somewhat new because they are not new to shooters and not new to MMO's. Though they are consistent. Because some of the flaws of Anthem have showed up in other games. Which is why it is hard to accept that "they have no experience with this type of game" when they are repeating some of the same mistakes.

There are some general mistakes that they repeat, but the reality is despite how long they've been around it's clear that there was pretty minimal experience/knowledge about the genre within leadership, and it shows. That's coupled with the "DON'T SAY THE WORD DESTINY" nonsense, which is basically a huge self-inflicted wound that was due to their pride. They have experience making games, but not games in this genre. And again, it shows. A lot.

[rhorle]

WAR was Mythic actually, are you thinking of the brief period when EA was slapping the BW brand on studios (BW-Mythic for WAR, BW-Victory for C&C)? Because I don't recall BW ever working on a proper Warhammer game. So those aren't relevant as they're BW in name only.

One of the founders of Bioware was in charge (at the time). That isn't Bioware in name only. You also say that they didn't listen to advice when given which means they had the experience. They just choose not to use it. That is part of the problem with Bioware. They tend to repeat the same mistakes or not learn from past mistakes.

There are some general mistakes that they repeat, but the reality is despite how long they've been around it's clear that there was pretty minimal experience/knowledge about the genre within leadership, and it shows. That's coupled with the "DON'T SAY THE WORD DESTINY" nonsense, which is basically a huge self-inflicted wound that was due to their pride. They have experience making games, but not games in this genre. And again, it shows. A lot.

That again shows that the problem isn't with experience. It is with not listening to experience. Bioware had the experience and ability to make a great game. They failed to do so anyways. The fact that they have never made an online looter shooter wouldn't stop skilled developers. After all plenty of other developers have made succesfull or non-failure looter shooter games for the first time.

[Edge-]

One of the founders of Bioware was in charge (at the time). That isn't Bioware in name only.

In charge of what? The doctors were never in charge of anything but BW - https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ence-increases

If you have some sauce to support your claim, I'd be interested to read it. Because WAR was purely, 100% Mythic only.

That again shows that the problem isn't with experience. It is with not listening to experience. Bioware had the experience and ability to make a great game. They failed to do so anyways. The fact that they have never made an online looter shooter wouldn't stop skilled developers. After all plenty of other developers have made succesfull or non-failure looter shooter games for the first time.

It's both. Key folks lacked experience (and continue to do so as we're seeing they're hiring to fill holes now), and what experience existed wasn't shared or used to inform decisions.

[Vineri]

In charge of what? The doctors were never in charge of anything but BW - https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ence-increases

If you have some sauce to support your claim, I'd be interested to read it. Because WAR was purely, 100% Mythic only.



It's both. Key folks lacked experience (and continue to do so as we're seeing they're hiring to fill holes now), and what experience existed wasn't shared or used to inform decisions.

It seems to be a point of discussion, regarding the doctors.

People really miss their "old" games. I miss them.

When a buying company steps up and pretends to be the Doctors.... hell I'm glad some people remember.

BioWare is a bought trademark. Nothing more, nothing less.

BioWare is gone. EA owns the reigns. The talent of BioWare left a long, long time ago. A decade+ ago. EA is milking this.

I miss BioWare. I miss the doctors ambitions.

[rhorle]

In charge of what? The doctors were never in charge of anything but BW - https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ence-increases

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythic_Entertainment
https://kotaku.com/ea-combines-mythi...obot-452586570
https://www.mmorpg.com/warhammer-onl...oup-1000014208

Warhammer online: Wrath of heroes cancelled in 2013 was being developed by Bioware Mythic. At a time when the two founders of Bioware were in lead positions. It wasn't just slapping the Bioware name on something.

It's both. Key folks lacked experience (and continue to do so as we're seeing they're hiring to fill holes now), and what experience existed wasn't shared or used to inform decisions.

Right. But we were discussing your claim that Bioware had no experience what so ever to draw on. That is false. They are a major game studio that has developed both Multiplayer, Online, and Shooters before. We also live in the modern age where you can easily draw experience from outside sources if you are willing. That is one of the reason why Blizzard found success for example. They reiterate rather then reinvent when they find something working for others.

[dope_danny]

They patched out the chaches. They actually removed loot in a game where the dwindling playerbase are already screaming theres not enough rewards. People are 'mildly upset' to put it kindly.

This is amazing to watch.

[Dhrizzle]

They patched out the chaches. They actually removed loot in a game where the dwindling playerbase are already screaming theres not enough rewards. People are 'mildly upset' to put it kindly.

This is amazing to watch.

The issue with Anthem loot is low drop rates on Legendaries (which are the only loot worth looking at once you hit a certain point) compounded by the RNG inscriptions also being important for your playstyle. The caches are cosmetic only and were always supposed to be for a limited time. Of course there will always be people who want to whing about anything, especially with games that have had as rocky a time as Anthem, but if they kept them in the same people would probably be screeching that BioWare lied about them being for a limited time.

[grexly75]

They patched out the chaches. They actually removed loot in a game where the dwindling playerbase are already screaming theres not enough rewards. People are 'mildly upset' to put it kindly.

This is amazing to watch.

Talk making rounds at the moment is that Anthem is pretty much dead in the water, what with some of the team being moved on to doing Dragon Age 4, and that Bioware: Austin will now deal with Anthem..

[Dhrizzle]

Talk making rounds at the moment is that Anthem is pretty much dead in the water, what with some of the team being moved on to doing Dragon Age 4, and that Bioware: Austin will now deal with Anthem..

That's old news and as far as I can tell was the plan before the botched launch.

[Yriel]

Well i'm really shocked by that "patch". They didn't add anything after the stronghold and now they are even removing the Elysium chests? I know they were time-limited in the first place but still, in a game with so little to do i had expected that they extended the timer and later added now stuff to them. Making some decals/vínyls/animations can't be that hard.
I usually did the quest for the key and 1-2 strongholds every day but now... with legs barely dropping i don't know i will keep logging on a regular basis.

I disagree, Iron Man can jet pack and shoot at the same time, You can't in this game.

Yes you can, the Storm is build just to do just that but all other can too for quite some time. I'm flying quite a lot while shooting with my ranger, too.

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Yup, which was the point being made if you look at the context of said conversation. It looks like where their head was at originally wasn't terribly far off something like risk of rain 2, but they ended up trying to awkwardly make a destiny clone that wasn't destiny but was supposed to be more like D3 with the top priorities being flying and graphics because they needed to impress the EA guy. People seem to put EA guy on a pedestal because those 2 things are some of the best things they did in the game... ignoring that they're the best things in the game because they needed them to be in order to specifically impress EA guy meaning everything else took a back seat.

Well i'm not so sure if their original idea was that good, it sounded really boring to me, like a walking simulator MMO. But who knows.
I don't think making Anthem a looter shooter was a bad idea, especially with flying.
I still think it's a good game but it needs content, god it needs content...

[grexly75]

That's old news and as far as I can tell was the plan before the botched launch.

Ahh k, can never tell what is old and new these days.. lol But yeah with a horrid launch and the delay/abandonment of new features, I am so very glad I never bought the game..

[Dhrizzle]

Ahh k, can never tell what is old and new these days.. lol But yeah with a horrid launch and the delay/abandonment of new features, I am so very glad I never bought the game..

As far as the core gameplay goes it's really fun, compared to Destiny it's a lot quicker and more dynamic with abilities and "class" (Javelin type) making a huge difference in the way you play. It didn't work out for the Games-As-A-Service crowd who want a long-term dopamine dispenser but for people who value games for being fun to play it's a clear winner, which is why you get so many of us defending it whilst acknowledging the major issues it's faced.