(BM) Beast Cannon vs. BF/DF in T20

[Mordmonk]

Hey guys, I'd like to open up an insightful and friendly discussion over these two builds going into Tomb. I and many other hunters are a little confused with the current rise of the "meme" build Beast Cannon(Stomp + One with the pack). My current understanding is this:

1) The T19 nerfs have made stomp/owtp the better choice for now. With many people currently simming(including me) crit as their highest stat priority to further improve wild call procs hence the name, beast cannon.
2) T20 will put DF/BF back on top with a general stat priority of Mastery>Haste=Agi=Crit
3) T20 will "kill" the beast cannon build due to haste/mastery being more beneficial to the bestial wrath window(more kill commands), and losing T19 2pc means direbeast does not benefit at all from BW.
4) Everyone's legendary choices and stat priorities are personal and will have to be simmed on a per character basis, there's really no it all be all lego combo.

So with all of this, and a few mock sims I've run with T20 loot, there's still a pretty minimal difference between BF/DF and Beast Cannon in T20. This was just a quick sim with Mantle/Parsel's and I filled in the blanks with 4pc T20 and BiS statted off pieces from Tomb for each spec. I followed the general Crit>Haste>Agi=Mastery stat prio for the Beast Cannon build in T20, and Mastery>Haste=Agi=Crit general priority for the BF/DF build and the results were BF/DF on top by about 20k DPS.

Now obviously these sims are skewed by the fact that:

1) I used the same lego combo for both
2) You'll be supplementing gear through M+
3) The stat priorities aren't amazing in Tomb for off pieces
4) Crit or Vers is widely represented in Tomb making Beast Cannon intriguing still

So I now open the discussion to you guys, what you've found via your mock sims, what you feel will be best, what you find most fun and what build and stat priorities you're going to pursue heading into Tomb. I for one thoroughly enjoy the Beast Cannon build and will reluctantly switch back to BF/DF if that's ultimately #1, but with the amount of crit itemization in Tomb to allow more Wild Call procs and ultimately aid Beast Cannon, I'm unsure what will come out on top.

[Mavick]

I explained the reasons for the rise of the beast cannon spec in my post on the BM dps 725 thread, but I guess I'll be more thorough here since apparently there's some confusion, because your conclusions as to "why" t20 kill it are right but not for the all the correct reasons.

The reason the build does well is mostly a chain reaction stemming from the t19 4set nerf. The reduction of that bonus combined with the nerf to base cooldown reduction to BW from using DB/DF caused a pretty big drop in BW uptime. As a result, OwtP's ability to offset that combined with Stomp (which still gets full benefit from the t19 2set bonus) allowed the combination of both of those talents to rise above DF/BF. DF would still be ok, however when you're running OwtP with a decent amount of crit you're generally able to spam far more than 3 stacks calls for, and past 3 stacks DF doesn't really gain much outside of the mediocre damage from the flurry attacks and the extra focus. Stomp, on the other hand, the more you spam that is just more damage period, it doesn't suffer any limitations.

That's all well and good in a t19 world, however.....

Once you drop both of those bonuses (particularly 2pc t19), Stomp's value plummets, because outside of t19 2set, it gets no bonuses from BW, which t20 is geared for. Both of the t20 set bonuses amplify BW, which only affects you, your pet, and Hati. DF plays right into this, as it enhances your pets attack speed, would get even more damage from the flurry attacks, and then focus as always. So then the question comes down to OwtP or BF. As far as I know they're actually not far apart, but generally, as stated in Azor's guide, BF is going to be ahead. Your sims also show apparently, and probably most people's will.

So it doesn't have so much to do with stat priorities or "haste mastery being more beneficial during BW window" but really just what the set bonuses are directed at. Stat priorities for BM are really just a meme anyway. Anytime I see people stressing over them in Discord I cringe a little. BM does so well with all stats, generally, that even when they're in a certain order for some reason people overlook the fact that they're seldom separated by more than a few dps each, and more often than not, within 2 dps of each other. So there's really no wrong answer in terms of that unless you're just getting vers on everything. Even with beast cannon, crit is about as far ahead as I've seen a stat, yet it's still less than 4 dps ahead of agility (excluding versatility, obviously).

[Mordmonk]

Thanks for the thorough breakdown Mavick! That definitely provides a more clear understanding as to what bonuses are effecting what and why beast cannon is pulling ahead for the time being.

I definitely noticed what you said about the stat priorities in my basic simulations for T20, I think the best itemized gear I could use from Tomb only had my DF/BF sims at like 65-70% mastery, something like that which to me seems low, but that also proves your point that the stats are so close that the values are almost irrelevant. I'll go into tomb prepared to swap to BF/DF and continue simming along the way. Thanks again for clearing some confusion up!

[MisterBigglez]

Ive not done any testing myself but rather just thinking about the benefits of stomp with tier 20. BW does buff stomp dmg but not DB right? might be more beneficial on fights where wave of adds appear.

If you go stomp build, you take WotC and if the tier buffs cobra shot damage then its going to hit very hard, add some procs and it probably becomes the hardest hitting spell, sometimes cobra shot is my top damage.

What about if we don't drop t19 2pc? I have 925 tier I could keep, one of them being a cloak which iirc, the tier 20 one has meh stats on it. This does mean you can't use chest or shoulders but belt and ring would do just fine.

I think there is potential, and there have been a lot of people doing sims which show stomp being viable, but as soon as Azor said it sucks and the ring sucks, everyone just decided to switch opinions. I for one am going to see how it plays out for myself personally over the next few weeks and I would recommend you do the same.

[Mavick]

You're welcome to do that, but first you need to correct a couple misconceptions:

BW does not buff Stomp. Stomp is buffed by effects that buff Dire Beast (i.e. t19 2set, which happens WHEN you press BW, so that's probably your misconception) and things that affect your Attack Power which is what its base damage scales off. That's pretty much it. BW is a straight modifier of % damage to you, your pet and Hati (by virtue of the artifact trait).

And sure, you can try to keep t19 2set, but right off the bat you're going to be ruling out 2 of the more powerful legendaries. So good luck with that. Plus, I expect Blizzard to do something eventually to rule this out for anyone. I don't know anyone that would be truly happy trying to fish better titanforged old-tier items just to gimmick a better build. That generally, with few exceptions, runs counter to what they aim for with the game.

[MisterBigglez]

You're welcome to do that, but first you need to correct a couple misconceptions:

BW does not buff Stomp. Stomp is buffed by effects that buff Dire Beast (i.e. t19 2set, which happens WHEN you press BW, so that's probably your misconception) and things that affect your Attack Power which is what its base damage scales off. That's pretty much it. BW is a straight modifier of % damage to you, your pet and Hati (by virtue of the artifact trait).

And sure, you can try to keep t19 2set, but right off the bat you're going to be ruling out 2 of the more powerful legendaries. So good luck with that. Plus, I expect Blizzard to do something eventually to rule this out for anyone. I don't know anyone that would be truly happy trying to fish better titanforged old-tier items just to gimmick a better build. That generally, with few exceptions, runs counter to what they aim for with the game.

Ahhh I understand now.

About the two legendaries that are ruled out, you would have to compare the gain from 2pc t19 and the legendary replacement to see if it is a gain, I understand that the chest might be our best legendary now, but compared to other legendaries such as the belt, the difference in dps is not that high and going stomp build, belt skyrocketed in terms of dps gain (for me) just because of the increased uptime in BW.

In terms of fishing for titanforge, that is subjective, as you have said, you don't know anyone who would be happy to do so, luckily for me I have capped ilvl tier so I don't have to worry as much, but for others it might not be worth it which I can understand.

Time will tell, and I look forward to the next few weeks to see how BM does overall.

[xamsam]

I read your post twice and I can not find you mentioning anywhere, but if you did, i apologize in advance.

It seems to me you forgot (or didn't mention):
1.the synergy between WoTC and crit/stomp build.

and, given you're right about crit/stomp + otwp+ soul of the huntmaster is aprox 20k lower than DF build.

2. that the crit/stomp build have an inbuilt cleave while still doing pure single target rotation. DF build must choose between going pure single target or start multishot for beastcleave, hence sacrificing pure single target damage.

Bendak have simmed crit/stomp build with ring and t20 aprox 70khigher than any DF build.
http://eyesofthebeast.com/2017/05/pa...d-set-bonuses/
early days tho

[Turtel]

The reason the build does well is mostly a chain reaction stemming from the t19 4set nerf. The reduction of that bonus combined with the nerf to base cooldown reduction to BW from using DB/DF caused a pretty big drop in BW uptime. As a result, OwtP's ability to offset that combined with Stomp (which still gets full benefit from the t19 2set bonus) allowed the combination of both of those talents to rise above DF/BF. DF would still be ok, however when you're running OwtP with a decent amount of crit you're generally able to spam far more than 3 stacks calls for, and past 3 stacks DF doesn't really gain much outside of the mediocre damage from the flurry attacks and the extra focus. Stomp, on the other hand, the more you spam that is just more damage period, it doesn't suffer any limitations.

I'm not sure if this is a fully satisfactory explanation.

I agree with your assessment that Stomp works better with OwtP than DF does, in fact, in addition to the points you made, I think one of the big reasons why DF has bad synergy with OwtP is because it gives double the focus of Dire Beast (24 focus versus 12 focus), which would result in a lot of lost focus due to focus capping. Even with Stomp I find that I end up wasting a lot of focus due to the sheer amount of procs I get: not only do the procs generate extra focus, but they also eat up GCDs which prevent me from spending the extra focus. So this could explain why Stomp overtook DF: because OwtP overtook BF, which results in Stomp overtaking DF.

The thing I'm not satisfied about with your explanation though is why OwtP overtook BF (which the above explanation requires in order to be correct as well). It makes sense that the reduced uptime on BW would hurt BF, but if we look at why the BW uptime was reduced, it's entirely because Dire Beast was nerfed (the BW CD reduction from using Dire Beast was reduced by about 50%). A nerf to Dire Beast is also a nerf to OwtP, since the entire purpose of the OwtP is to let you cast Dire Beast more often. If the nerf to Dire Beast was indeed the reason for OwtP overtaking BF, then the explanation would need to explain why the nerf to Dire Beast ended up hurting BF more than it hurt OwtP.

One possible explanation for this could be that the BW CD reduction is not the only component of OwtP's DPS contribution. Using more Dire Beasts increases our DPS for a few reasons:
1. It increases our BW uptime (this was nerfed).
2. It provides extra focus (not nerfed, in fact this was arguably buffed with the AotW change).
3. With Dire Frenzy: it provides additional attacks and increases the uptime/level of the pet attack speed buff (not nerfed).
3. With Stomp: it provides extra Stomp damage and adds extra beasts which give extra pet autoattacks and buff Cobra Shot (not nerfed).
So the CD reduction is only one component of OwtP's contribution to our DPS. A 50% nerf to the BW CD reduction of Dire Beast would not result in a 50% nerf to OwtP.

BF is probably roughly directly proportional to BW uptime, so a 50% nerf to BW uptime will result in a 50% nerf to BF. However, BW uptime has two components to it:
1. The CD reduction from Dire Beast (which was nerfed by 50%)
2. The natural countdown of the cooldown (which was not nerfed).
So a 50% nerf to the BW CD reduction of Dire Beast would also not result in a 50% nerf to BF.

In order to convince ourselves that the nerf to Dire Beast hurts BF more than it hurts OwtP, then we'd have to show that the BW CD reduction of Dire Beast is a bigger component of the DPS increase of BF than it is for OwtP. The math required to show this is pretty complicated, especially for OwtP so I'll just try use some very very approximate figures in order to get ballpark values.

Assumption: Bestial Wrath uptime was 70% when using BF in 7.2. This means Bestial Wrath was cast every 21.5 seconds on average (15 second duration every 21.5 seconds is a 70% uptime). This means Dire Beast reduced the BW cooldown by 90-21.5 = 68.5 seconds on average (or 3.2 seconds reduction every second). With the 50% nerf, that would mean DB would reduce the BW cooldown by 1.6 seconds every second instead, resulting in casting BW every 90/(1.6+1) = 34.6 seconds. This means the new uptime on Bestial Wrath would be 43.4%. This is a 38% nerf to BW uptime, which should translate to a 38% nerf to BF.

OwtP is a lot harder to calculate so I'm going to have to pull some hopefully reasonable numbers out of my ass (using this arbitrarily picked high ranking Krosus log as guidance). Assumptions (using 7.2 mechanics and Stomp/OwtP): We deal 1m DPS, we have a 90% uptime on BW, BW doubles our DPS for its duration (due to Killer Cobra and focus pooling in addition to the damage bonus), total direct damage per cast of Dire Beast is 1m (Stomp plus the beast melee attacks plus the extra Cobra Shot damage), average damage per extra focus is 25k (assuming focus is spent 75% on Cobra Shot and 25% on Kill Command). Under these assumptions, gaining 15 seconds of BW results in a gain of 8m damage. Therefore the components of Dire Beasts damage are as follows:
1. The 24s BW CD reduction results in an extra 24/90 = 0.27 BW casts. This means the CD reduction is worth about 8000k*0.27 = 2133k damage.
2. Extra 12 focus is worth 300k extra damage.
3. Stomp+extra beast+extra cobra shot damage is worth 1000k damage.

So overall the BW CD reduction contributes 2133/(2133+300+1000) = 62% of the damage of a Dire Beast cast (in 7.2 mechanics). If we nerf that component by 50%, we'd expect Dire Beast to lose 50%*62% = 32% of it's damage (and thus OwtP would lose 32% of its value, since OwtP simply adds extra Dire Beast casts throughout a fight).

This is compared to the 38% loss from BF. So under these approximations, OwtP loses a little less damage from the Dire Beast nerf than BF does (confirming the original suspicion). It does seem to be a fairly small difference though, I wouldn't have thought it'd be quite enough to push OwtP ahead of BF. But it's possible my approximations could have been off, which could plausibly favour OwtP, which means it's plausible that the Dire Beast nerf can explain how OwtP overtook BF.

However, there are also other factors that might have contributed to the rise of OwtP. The nerf to the Kill Command traits along with the spec-wide damage buff was effectively a buff to all other abilities, the main one being Cobra Shot: the extra focus from OwtP would primarily be spent on more Cobra Shot casts, and the extra beasts from OwtP also boost the damage of Cobra Shot so this nerf+buff probably ended up helping OwtP and possibly hurt BF (since BW damage is mainly Kill Command damage, due to Killer Cobra). Focus capping is a problem with OwtP, and the change to AotW (reducing GCDs by 0.2s) allows more focus to be spent quickly thereby reducing the amount of focus lost to the capping, so this change probably buffed OwtP by more than it buffed BF.

[Mavick]

It's nice that you went to such mathematical effort to essentially prove what I was saying. The main point of my post, however, was to not go crazy over it when there's a fair chance this build drops significantly a few weeks down the road with increased ilevel's from mythic and t20 sets in.

[Shakou]

Chest is a good legendary? Ya how do you figure? That's a huge loss in stats due to not wearing the optimal tier pieces if you're using that chest.

[Mavick]

Chest is a good legendary? Ya how do you figure? That's a huge loss in stats due to not wearing the optimal tier pieces if you're using that chest.

I figure because most sims that both I've done personally and that have been abundantly shared show it as one of, if not the, best legendaries. It doesn't really matter that much that the tier chest is also well optimized, you compare a 970 chest slot item to 930 base (at mythic) and the sheer amount of differences in stats alone push it far higher, let alone the legendary effect itself which is basically just a permanent 4% damage buff. It's not rocket science.

[Shakou]

I figure because most sims that both I've done personally and that have been abundantly shared show it as one of, if not the, best legendaries. It doesn't really matter that much that the tier chest is also well optimized, you compare a 970 chest slot item to 930 base (at mythic) and the sheer amount of differences in stats alone push it far higher, let alone the legendary effect itself which is basically just a permanent 4% damage buff. It's not rocket science.

Dude, I'm sorry but I'm doubting the accuracy of these sims because you simply don't have a lot of options for main armor pieces that are heavy on mastery if you don't use the tier chest. If you're not using that...you're left with few options from TOS gear, so you will have very little mastery unless you get a lucky titan-forged piece from outside of the raid, until you get to Fallen Avatar who drops mail mastery/crit legs.

I would like to see these sims though in detail and see what gear sets are being used and see them compared against all other options.

[Mavick]

Dude, I'm sorry but I'm doubting the accuracy of these sims because you simply don't have a lot of options for main armor pieces that are heavy on mastery if you don't use the tier chest. If you're not using that...you're left with few options from TOS gear, so you will have very little mastery unless you get a lucky titan-forged piece from outside of the raid, until you get to Fallen Avatar who drops mail mastery/crit legs.

I would like to see these sims though in detail and see what gear sets are being used and see them compared against all other options.

Go sim it yourself, instead of relying on other people to do your work for you. All you're doing is sitting here feelcrafting based on false presumptions, such as needing to have mastery on every piece, or even most pieces. I, and other people, have pointed out repeatedly in posts that stat weights for BM, in general, are a meme, especially with DF/BF spec (and mastery is worse than both haste and crit for beast cannon). NONE of the stats are separated by more than 1 dps or two. What DOES swing the difference for most pieces that are not jewelry, is main stat, and that means ilevel.

A perfect example of this is my own gear atm. I've been using a 925 haste/vers helm and 915 haste/vers tier chest because they just simply beat my 905 tier haste/mastery helm and 905 haste/mastery chest. Solely because there's just so many more stats on them, regardless of vers being the worst.

[Shakou]

Go sim it yourself, instead of relying on other people to do your work for you. All you're doing is sitting here feelcrafting based on false presumptions,.

No all I'm saying is put your sims up and prove what you're saying. And if you didn't sim every possible 4 piece t20 gear option, you couldn't have possibly determined via math that the chest is bis.

Besides why would you come in talking about sims you ran but not showing them? And then you accuse me of feelcrafting because I doubt how accurate this is? I mean either you simmed all the gear options or you didn't.

That's not rocket science and I actually know a whole frickin lot about rocket science.

At the end of the day I'm not going to take your word for it anyways, I'm interested in the math.

The furthest I'll go with any 'feel crafting' is to say that all of the dps legendaries seem pretty close, what's bis depends on what you can equip, and bis this tier isn't anywhere remotely in the realm of 7.1 Mantle of Command vs everything else.|

Also want to add I'm not just trying to give you a hard time, it just does not make sense to me not to show the sims and share results. I mainly found this post useful as I probably wouldn't have thought about changing to stomp/owtp otherwise (for now with t19 gear).

[Mavick]

No all I'm saying is put your sims up and prove what you're saying. And if you didn't sim every possible 4 piece t20 gear option, you couldn't have possibly determined via math that the chest is bis.

Besides why would you come in talking about sims you ran but not showing them? And then you accuse me of feelcrafting because I doubt how accurate this is? I mean either you simmed all the gear options or you didn't.

That's not rocket science and I actually know a whole frickin lot about rocket science.

At the end of the day I'm not going to take your word for it anyways, I'm interested in the math.

The furthest I'll go with any 'feel crafting' is to say that all of the dps legendaries seem pretty close, what's bis depends on what you can equip, and bis this tier isn't anywhere remotely in the realm of 7.1 Mantle of Command vs everything else.|

Also want to add I'm not just trying to give you a hard time, it just does not make sense to me not to show the sims and share results. I mainly found this post useful as I probably wouldn't have thought about changing to stomp/owtp otherwise (for now with t19 gear).

I don't have to post sims, and even if I did they are sims tailored to me with my gear sets so there's some context I'd have to explain that isn't worth my time on this thread. But you can simply go to Azor's spreadsheet on IV and see a direct comparison between the legendaries and notice how far ahead the chest is from everything else. Or even just hang around in Discord when one of the dozens of people who've posted up their sims showing how well it's doing.

The more important question, I feel, is have YOU simmed. Because if you had, you wouldn't be here spewing the nonsense you are about mastery on other pieces, etc etc.

[Turtel]

It's nice that you went to such mathematical effort to essentially prove what I was saying. The main point of my post, however, was to not go crazy over it when there's a fair chance this build drops significantly a few weeks down the road with increased ilevel's from mythic and t20 sets in.

I just wanted to clarify that my post was not attempting to disagree or 'put you down' in any way. I thought it was fascinating that the 7.2.5 changes lead to the sudden and totally unexpected rise of Stomp/OwtP and was intrigued as to which of the changes could have lead to it. You offered an explanation, which I agreed explained one component (Stomp), but which I felt didn't ultimately explain why OwtP overtook BF (which the Stomp explanation hinged on); at least not convincingly enough to satisfy my intrigue. That was my main interest in this post, and in the game for that matter, but I can understand if most people are more interested in practical numbers like live sims rather than 'what ifs' and hypotheticals.

Although I am now curious why people on this forum seem so averse to friendly discussion, and must be so combative and condescending with their responses. I wonder if it's just because that's the environment here and people must do so in order to fit in, or if it's because this is how a particular well respected Hunter used to behave on this forum.

[Shakou]

I don't have to post sims, and even if I did they are sims tailored to me with my gear sets so there's some context I'd have to explain that isn't worth my time on this thread. But you can simply go to Azor's spreadsheet on IV and see a direct comparison between the legendaries and notice how far ahead the chest is from everything else. Or even just hang around in Discord when one of the dozens of people who've posted up their sims showing how well it's doing.

The more important question, I feel, is have YOU simmed. Because if you had, you wouldn't be here spewing the nonsense you are about mastery on other pieces, etc etc.

It's not spewing nonsense, if you're simming to figure out what the mathematically proven best gear slots are, you shouldn't be simming around only what you have available, that's just plainly logical. What's in your bags doesn't tell us necessarily what's the best possible set up, and there is always a best possible set up.

I didn't even get into the ramp up time of the new legendary chest and that also is a factor that has to be considered, all reasons to doubt everything you're saying. Why? Because we haven't seen your sims. So your experience is anecdotal and anecdotal evidence is not something that is used in science, it has to be repeatable it has to be consistent, it has to be peer reviewed. So funny you mention rocket science to me in that context you did because I don't only understand rocket science but my family is straight up OG top brass USAF and all up in NASA. So when you go off about feely crafting because I am skeptical about data you won't show us that actually makes you look bad.

I'm nerdy and I like math. This is why Logs > Sims (depending on if the data is public). Because you can you can find thousands of examples of correlating data in an environment that is essentially blind tested because the data is produced by thousands of people independently and from there you can pinpoint the cause.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=BeastMastery

What all of the data available here tells us is that #1 all dps legendaries are fairly close. But also #2 That some particular items are better than others. Namely the belt, the bracers and the new ring. But also the shoulders if you're using the dire beast/owtp build right now and depending on the fight.

Granted less people will have the chest right now, so data is inconclusive, but nevertheless we still have a pretty clear picture of how people should be gearing right now and what they should be aiming for to maximize their dps going in TOS.

Stop taking things so personal man, I'm not attacking you, I asked questions and then you lash out at me, doesn't make you look good or credible. Makes you come off as very ignorant and toxic.

[Keren]

I like the idea of owtp and stomp - are the bracers just not good enough for that? I mean, more aspects of the wilds should bump up the number of dire beasts aswell, not?

[Khrux]

Bracers are carried by the existence of CoF, that trinket massively increases the value of Bracers however with ToS trinkets and inflated ilvls it'll be very difficult for CoF to keep up in power and thus bracers will drop off pretty quickly as a result. It won't be the worst legendary, but it'll be dropping out of the optimal leggo combo.

[Mavick]

It's not spewing nonsense, if you're simming to figure out what the mathematically proven best gear slots are, you shouldn't be simming around only what you have available, that's just plainly logical. What's in your bags doesn't tell us necessarily what's the best possible set up, and there is always a best possible set up.

I didn't even get into the ramp up time of the new legendary chest and that also is a factor that has to be considered, all reasons to doubt everything you're saying. Why? Because we haven't seen your sims. So your experience is anecdotal and anecdotal evidence is not something that is used in science, it has to be repeatable it has to be consistent, it has to be peer reviewed. So funny you mention rocket science to me in that context you did because I don't only understand rocket science but my family is straight up OG top brass USAF and all up in NASA. So when you go off about feely crafting because I am skeptical about data you won't show us that actually makes you look bad.

I'm nerdy and I like math. This is why Logs > Sims (depending on if the data is public). Because you can you can find thousands of examples of correlating data in an environment that is essentially blind tested because the data is produced by thousands of people independently and from there you can pinpoint the cause.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=BeastMastery

What all of the data available here tells us is that #1 all dps legendaries are fairly close. But also #2 That some particular items are better than others. Namely the belt, the bracers and the new ring. But also the shoulders if you're using the dire beast/owtp build right now and depending on the fight.

Granted less people will have the chest right now, so data is inconclusive, but nevertheless we still have a pretty clear picture of how people should be gearing right now and what they should be aiming for to maximize their dps going in TOS.

Since you have a hard-on for my personal sims and apparently are too lazy to run you're own while preferring to base your arguments on less than one week old logs in a farm instance, here:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/SJfApTNmb - The best possible gear setup I could come up with for ToS gear at heroic ilevel, which ends up being exactly what Azor posted as BIS on IV, just 4pc t20 with the best offset items from ToS.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/SkQAWAEmZ - That's the best I could get out of the 2pc/4pc setup with wrists. The best CoF I have is an 880 socketed one and my highest t19 pieces are 915, and when I tried my CoF in place of Engine of Eradication, it actually dropped my dps even with the wrists.

Again, those are comparing to MY gear, other people might have a better CoF so 2pc/4pc pulls ahead, but it still wouldn't be by much. And that's why I'm hesitant to post mine because there's bound to be an influx of retards contesting with their own sims assuming that makes an argument when it really doesn't. Everybody's gear is bound to be slightly different. That's why "sim yourself" gets used in Discord so often and why it's annoying as all hell when someone tries to argue with you while being too lazy to run their own stuff to see if what they're saying has merit. I haven't finished running stuff with 930 base items yet (because it honestly doesn't matter just yet), but from what I have I can tell that as ilevel goes up, the gap between chest/belt gets wider above anything running 2pc/4pc with wrists and stomp build. I said all that to say this: the information in Azor's guide is pretty much spot on, and I have been actively trying to find mistakes by him, and come up short so far.

Stop taking things so personal man, I'm not attacking you, I asked questions and then you lash out at me, doesn't make you look good or credible. Makes you come off as very ignorant and toxic.

It's not so much me taking it personal as it is easily getting frustrated by people basing arguments on essentially nothing, personal feelings, biases, etc, all the while making absolutely zero effort (and no, linking warcraftlogs does NOT count) to back themselves up. And that's pretty much exactly what you've done throughout this thread.