Stormblood MSQ Discussion (THERE ARE SPOILERS IN HERE)

[Faroth]

The heroes in this game all seem to be aligned with the lawful good archetype where punishing someone for past crimes if they're willing to change is pretty taboo.

If Yotsuyu truly does have amnesia, there's not really much reason or purpose in punishing her is there? A personal vendetta and hate towards her because of her past crimes is not a good justification for exacting punishment/ justice when she doesn't even know who Yotsuyu is or what she did to deserve the punishment she's being given.

Fordola just tried to survive in her previous life and committed some terrible crimes. However, she now has a gift that not many people have that is invaluable in the mission of fighting and defeating primals/eichons and shouldn't just be tossed aside if she's willing and able to change.

Not to mention as they noted.... Fordola's newly acquired echo is punishing her far more than any city state could. She's getting Ghostrider's Penance Stare hitting her on a daily basis, basically. She's having to live through feeling what others felt as a result of her actions and decisions. That's beyond empathy, she's actually having to experience everyone's years of loss and suffering as if it was being done to her in a matter of hours. Every day.

That said, it does seem the story is pretty damned predictable which is unfortunate, because it makes it less exciting to experience.

We'll see how things play out, though. I thought A Realm Reborn's ending to lead into Heavensward seemed predictable and then, well.....

Heavensward had a few surprises along the way, but the overall resolutions were a bit more as expected, so we'll just have to see which way Stormblood goes.

[Stormwolf64]

Not to mention as they noted.... Fordola's newly acquired echo is punishing her far more than any city state could. She's getting Ghostrider's Penance Stare hitting her on a daily basis, basically. She's having to live through feeling what others felt as a result of her actions and decisions. That's beyond empathy, she's actually having to experience everyone's years of loss and suffering as if it was being done to her in a matter of hours. Every day.



We'll see how things play out, though. I thought A Realm Reborn's ending to lead into Heavensward seemed predictable and then, well.....

Heavensward had a few surprises along the way, but the overall resolutions were a bit more as expected, so we'll just have to see which way Stormblood goes.

Her echo is just a device to help redeem her character. They could have literally given it to anyone, yet they chose that bitch.

Yes, this crap tier writing is making me bitter

[Faroth]

Her echo is just a device to help redeem her character. They could have literally given it to anyone, yet they chose that bitch.

Yes, this crap tier writing is making me bitter

So they could have given the Echo to counter the power of the Warrior of Light to anyone and not given it to the antagonist that the Warrior of Light was facing off against.

This isn't crap writing, you're just pissed they aren't killing off a character you hate. That's not crap writing, it's just a direction you don't like. Not remotely the same thing.

[Katchii]

So they could have given the Echo to counter the power of the Warrior of Light to anyone and not given it to the antagonist that the Warrior of Light was facing off against.

This isn't crap writing, you're just pissed they aren't killing off a character you hate. That's not crap writing, it's just a direction you don't like. Not remotely the same thing.

100% This^

I personally really like Fordola, it's Yotsuyu that I can't stand. Fordola felt more real, more like someone in an unfortunate circumstance doing the best they feel they can do to survive and work the system. Yotsuyu is (was) just a petty and vindictive bitch IMO.

I tend to just experience the story as it comes. I don't have any say in it one way or another so I just ride it like a rollercoaster.

As you said though too, I felt ARR -> Heavensward felt predictable at first and then got taken for a loop, which was fun. We'll see how Stormblood plays out too.

[Faroth]

I have a friend that still hates Estinien. He hated him at the end of ARR from Dragoon quest, hated him throughout Heavensward, and wanted to kill him instead of save him at the end. He didn't like the direction, but he never said it was bad writing.

[Katchii]

I have a friend that still hates Estinien. He hated him at the end of ARR from Dragoon quest, hated him throughout Heavensward, and wanted to kill him instead of save him at the end. He didn't like the direction, but he never said it was bad writing.

Yeah, I have always been sensitive to people saying something is bad when in reality they just don't like it. There's a profound difference between something being bad quality and something being bad for you personally.

It's like a person giving penicillin a bad review because they personally are allergic to it, when it's a literal life saving thing for millions of people.

[Stormwolf64]

So they could have given the Echo to counter the power of the Warrior of Light to anyone and not given it to the antagonist that the Warrior of Light was facing off against.

This isn't crap writing, you're just pissed they aren't killing off a character you hate. That's not crap writing, it's just a direction you don't like. Not remotely the same thing.

Lets agree to fully disagree

[Projectmars]

I have a friend that still hates Estinien. He hated him at the end of ARR from Dragoon quest, hated him throughout Heavensward, and wanted to kill him instead of save him at the end. He didn't like the direction, but he never said it was bad writing.

Wasn't too fond of him myself after the Dragoon quest... but definitely grew to like him during the HW story. I felt like they did a great job writing him through all that.

[lawow74]

Wasn't too fond of him myself after the Dragoon quest... but definitely grew to like him during the HW story. I felt like they did a great job writing him through all that.

I enjoyed seeing him pop back up in SB, and the way the DRG class quests went for this xpac too.

[dope_danny]

The heroes in this game all seem to be aligned with the lawful good archetype where punishing someone for past crimes if they're willing to change is pretty taboo.

If Yotsuyu truly does have amnesia, there's not really much reason or purpose in punishing her is there? A personal vendetta and hate towards her because of her past crimes is not a good justification for exacting punishment/ justice when she doesn't even know who Yotsuyu is or what she did to deserve the punishment she's being given.

Fordola just tried to survive in her previous life and committed some terrible crimes. However, she now has a gift that not many people have that is invaluable in the mission of fighting and defeating primals/eichons and shouldn't just be tossed aside if she's willing and able to change.

That said, it does seem the story is pretty damned predictable which is unfortunate, because it makes it less exciting to experience.

Its one of the story hooks that really reveals what tabletop players call "the go to Paladin guys". Players who want a power fantasy where they are the absolute judge, jury and executioner and nothing makes them more powerful than murdering everything personally. Because the alternative is death via cutscene or loot pinata but thats not stroking that deus vult total body erection is it?
You dont see 'that guy' that often in mmo's -outside of rp'ing paladins of course- but while they do lean more to tabletop 'that guy' is still there in mmos and i've seen a couple of these folks online who cannot deal with anything but a game thats a masturbatory murder checklist.

[Graeham]

Well, I'm a role-player and involved in a lot of professional theatre work so I make certain that I can see the game world from the perspective of different characters. I also have a fondness for sympathetic antagonists and grey morality.

Sadly, there are a lot of people in both WoW and FFXIV who have absolutely no concept of nuances and refuse to see things from the perspective of any character who is not painted as completely perfect. They're the same individuals who froth at the maw and accuse others of being deranged for daring to explore the reasoning and justifications that the 'bad guys' may have.

It's the same sort of nonsense that makes most fandoms utterly reprehensible to me. Imagine how much different the older Final Fantasy games would be if characters who made mistakes or did bad things were simply killed outright? Would FFIX be as memorable if Beatrix had been cut down and slain? Would FFVIII be if Seifer didn't get a redemption arc? No, I don't think so.

It doesn't help that the 'protagonists' in many JRPG's are utterly bland, either. Most people dislike Minfillia and Lyse for good reason - and many of those fawning over either character have a high chance of doing so simply based on their design alone. FFXIV would be utterly boring if it did not give us characters such as Ysayle, Estinien, Fordola and Regula.

Furthermore supporting fictional antagonists does not mean somebody supports genocide in the real world, either. Sadly that seems to be an increasingly common talking point for some individuals.

[Florena]

Well, I'm a role-player and involved in a lot of professional theatre work so I make certain that I can see the game world from the perspective of different characters. I also have a fondness for sympathetic antagonists and grey morality.

Sadly, there are a lot of people in both WoW and FFXIV who have absolutely no concept of nuances and refuse to see things from the perspective of any character who is not painted as completely perfect. They're the same individuals who froth at the maw and accuse others of being deranged for daring to explore the reasoning and justifications that the 'bad guys' may have.

It's the same sort of nonsense that makes most fandoms utterly reprehensible to me. Imagine how much different the older Final Fantasy games would be if characters who made mistakes or did bad things were simply killed outright? Would FFIX be as memorable if Beatrix had been cut down and slain? Would FFVIII be if Seifer didn't get a redemption arc? No, I don't think so.

It doesn't help that the 'protagonists' in many JRPG's are utterly bland, either. Most people dislike Minfillia and Lyse for good reason - and many of those fawning over either character have a high chance of doing so simply based on their design alone. FFXIV would be utterly boring if it did not give us characters such as Ysayle, Estinien, Fordola and Regula.

Furthermore supporting fictional antagonists does not mean somebody supports genocide in the real world, either. Sadly that seems to be an increasingly common talking point for some individuals.

Seifer got a redemption arc? If by arc you mean we last saw him during the 4th boss fight with him and him handing Rinoa over to the sorceress and then we suddenly see him fishing with his buddies with no explanation at the end then sure. I'm not against redemption arcs but there was no arc, no story, there in between him at his lowest moment and him suddenly being back to normal.

[Graeham]

Seifer got a redemption arc? If by arc you mean we last saw him during the 4th boss fight with him and him handing Rinoa over to the sorceress and then we suddenly see him fishing with his buddies with no explanation at the end then sure. I'm not against redemption arcs but there was no arc, no story, there in between him at his lowest moment and him suddenly being back to normal.

'Redemption' in the form of him being able to kick back and relax with his friends even after everything that happened during the course of the game. He wasn't a particularly bad guy so much as someone who was messed up, taken advantage of and screwed over. I'll admit, I didn't particularly care much for Rinoa - she always struck me as annoying and a romance between Quistis and Squall would have felt much more natural to me. Or, ideally, a romance between Seifer and Zell.

I'm content that Seifer evaded death and wasn't killed off. I don't think stories need to make a point to make every character be punished for their actions, either - so I'm a bit disillusioned by the commentary from a vocal portion of FFXIV's player-base that seem to think that every single antagonist needs to die or be imprisoned because they may have done questionable things.

I do think more could have been done with Seifer, though. It's a shame he didn't end up becoming a permanent party member...even if it only happened during the late game. I guess he's like Beatrix in that regard.

[Florena]

'Redemption' in the form of him being able to kick back and relax with his friends even after everything that happened during the course of the game. He wasn't a particularly bad guy so much as someone who was messed up, taken advantage of and screwed over. I'll admit, I didn't particularly care much for Rinoa - she always struck me as annoying and a romance between Quistis and Squall would have felt much more natural to me. Or, ideally, a romance between Seifer and Zell.

I'm content that Seifer evaded death and wasn't killed off. I don't think stories need to make a point to make every character be punished for their actions, either - so I'm a bit disillusioned by the commentary from a vocal portion of FFXIV's player-base that seem to think that every single antagonist needs to die or be imprisoned because they may have done questionable things.

I do think more could have been done with Seifer, though. It's a shame he didn't end up becoming a permanent party member...even if it only happened during the late game. I guess he's like Beatrix in that regard.

I don't think every villain needs to die but it's always jarring to me to see him just..hanging around fishing. Did the whole world forgive him for his actions? There's no answer there, no development, no story, just two very different points with nothing at all to connect them. I'm fine with villains finding redemption but I prefer for there to be an actual story there. Seifer has no story between these points, if he's going to kick back with his friends with no repurcusions I'd at least to know the why and how they get to that point.

[Faroth]

Most people dislike Minfillia

If FFXIV were a fully fleshed out novel, I think Minfillia would have been a more interesting character. But political and financial negotiations aren't exactly exciting to step away from gameplay to explore. People often say she didn't do anything, but she did more than they realize.

In the vein of seeing things from the perspective of a character, the other thing that often irritates me with MMOs - WoW suffers this far more than FFXIV - is that players do the whole "Faction A was in the wrong because xyz proves Faction B wasn't doing bad stuff" yet xyz is player knowledge that Faction A wouldn't have, and if they had slivers of it, they wouldn't have reason to trust its validity.

It drives me nuts when people can't separate omniscient player knowledge from in-world character knowledge.

[lawow74]

But political and financial negotiations aren't exactly exciting to step away from gameplay to explore. People often say she didn't do anything, but she did more than they realize.

I think of the comparison of bureaucratic process to a swan swimming across a lake. What looks like a smooth and elegant procession is only accomplished by a lot of frenetic activity just below the surface.

[Graeham]

I don't think every villain needs to die but it's always jarring to me to see him just..hanging around fishing. Did the whole world forgive him for his actions? There's no answer there, no development, no story, just two very different points with nothing at all to connect them. I'm fine with villains finding redemption but I prefer for there to be an actual story there. Seifer has no story between these points, if he's going to kick back with his friends with no repurcusions I'd at least to know the why and how they get to that point.

I think there's a big difference between a villain and an antagonist. Seifer was more of the latter - and the protagonists seemed to understand his motives. He was 'one of them', after all...in terms of sharing an origin story. In Kingdom Hearts, he tends to show up, be antagonistic and then makes peace with everyone. I read into his ending in FF8 as him kicking back and relaxing, realising that with Fujin and Raijin at his side he can live a meaningful life. Maybe he distanced himself from Balamb Garden, becoming an informant rather than a direct member. I don't think Squall and the others wanted to punish him, though.

- - - Updated - - -

If FFXIV were a fully fleshed out novel, I think Minfillia would have been a more interesting character. But political and financial negotiations aren't exactly exciting to step away from gameplay to explore. People often say she didn't do anything, but she did more than they realize.

In the vein of seeing things from the perspective of a character, the other thing that often irritates me with MMOs - WoW suffers this far more than FFXIV - is that players do the whole "Faction A was in the wrong because xyz proves Faction B wasn't doing bad stuff" yet xyz is player knowledge that Faction A wouldn't have, and if they had slivers of it, they wouldn't have reason to trust its validity.

It drives me nuts when people can't separate omniscient player knowledge from in-world character knowledge.

I prefer Minfilia over Lyse. Political intrigue can be great, though there isn't much of it where the Scions and the leaders of the Eorzean City States are concerned. The 'intrigue', so far has simply revolved around everything working out perfectly for the Eorzeans in the end, with a handful of lazy tropes such as the 'rich being greedy' and 'every1 must be fwends' being leaned upon a little too much.

Take the Ul'dah plot, for instance - it lasted a long while and the status quo didn't really change much. Nanamo not being killed off was disappointing, especially when Raubahn lost an arm but can fight unhindered. The only real loss in 'Before the Fall' is Teledji, which works in the favour of the protagonists since he was clearly a bad guy.

Minfilia? She's still around, technically - sure, she's now the 'face' of Hydaelyn but the implication is that she'll probably be freed eventually.

I think FFXIV needs to shake things up more in terms of the story. I want more conflict and tension between the various regions. Eureka, for instance, is intended to become a spot for the Eorzeans to evade Kugane's trade tariffs. If a world power moved into an unclaimed island next to Eorzea, though, for the same reason there would be hell to pay.

[Faroth]

I prefer Minfilia over Lyse. Political intrigue can be great, though there isn't much of it where the Scions and the leaders of the Eorzean City States are concerned. The 'intrigue', so far has simply revolved around everything working out perfectly for the Eorzeans in the end, with a handful of lazy tropes such as the 'rich being greedy' and 'every1 must be fwends' being leaned upon a little too much.

Except there was some string pulling that had to be done. They were technically in Ul'dah territory and the Monetarists wanted them to essentially ally with Ul'dah. Meanwhile, there's the Warrior of Light choosing a Grand Company and associating with the Scions, making it further seem as though the Scions were picking a city state to support. Minfillia had to play the diplomacy properly to maintain neutrality where city states wanted them to unquestionably not be neutral. Then all the coordination and logistics of moving everything to Mor Dona and the Scions were an active, if not frontrunning, force in building that place up.

In regards to Mor Dona, here's the simplest thing to realize: That place was built up from a couple of shacks to a thriving source of commerce without the Scions becoming indebted to Rowena. That alone is quite impressive!!! If that's what Minfilia managed (I assume with Tataru's assistance), that's a feat I feel few if any others can boast!

Take the Ul'dah plot, for instance - it lasted a long while and the status quo didn't really change much. Nanamo not being killed off was disappointing, especially when Raubahn lost an arm but can fight unhindered. The only real loss in 'Before the Fall' is Teledji, which works in the favour of the protagonists since he was clearly a bad guy.

I do wish/hope we return to the Ul'dah transition to democracy plot at some point. Right now it seems like Lyse is taking on Nanamo's dream of establishing a Republic (with Ul'dah supporting it).

Minfilia? She's still around, technically - sure, she's now the 'face' of Hydaelyn but the implication is that she'll probably be freed eventually.

Possibly. But maybe not. There's not a particular need to restore her to a mortal form. Though I could see it being a part of a final story resolution at the end of XIV's updates.

I think FFXIV needs to shake things up more in terms of the story. I want more conflict and tension between the various regions. Eureka, for instance, is intended to become a spot for the Eorzeans to evade Kugane's trade tariffs. If a world power moved into an unclaimed island next to Eorzea, though, for the same reason there would be hell to pay.

I get the feeling that Eureka will end with being unable to claim it as a trading outpost. Heck, it could disappear again at the end of the storyline for it.

[Faroth]

Just wanted to pop in and say....

So much for those complaining about Yotsuyu getting a free pass and griping about redemption stories.

[Graeham]

Well, 4.3 has been the best batch of MSQ's so far in my opinion. Especially in regards to Stormblood. It took a while for things to be set up but the payoff was much more satisfying than anything to do with Ala Mhigo or Ul'dah.

It also confirmed - yet again - a lot of the theories and head-canon my partner and I had regarding Yotsuyu and Garlemald.

Gaius having survived to become a hunter of Ascians is a pleasant surprise. You can tell it's him based on one of the masks hanging from his belt - it's an exact fit of the mask Gaius himself wore as part of his helmet.