Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Hellborne87]

Here is the bottom line, DK brethren; Frost is one of the worst specs in ToS and there isn't much of a debate or anything we can do about it. I played Frost to 10/10M in NH and it was pretty fun - but it's time to go Unholy or get left behind. The trinkets with all the shadow damage benefiting Unholy, the scaling benefiting Unholy, the loss of Rime set bonus killing on demand AoE, and the lack of talent options as Frost have all but sealed the deal. I see Unholy being middle of the pack and Frost living towards the bottom. I enjoy both specs and have mained DK since the Firelands, but it's time to embrace this or get ran over for the rest of ToS.

Suffer well.

[Nangz]

Here is the bottom line, DK brethren; Frost is one of the worst specs in ToS and there isn't much of a debate or anything we can do about it. I played Frost to 10/10M in NH and it was pretty fun - but it's time to go Unholy or get left behind. The trinkets with all the shadow damage benefiting Unholy, the scaling benefiting Unholy, the loss of Rime set bonus killing on demand AoE, and the lack of talent options as Frost have all but sealed the deal. I see Unholy being middle of the pack and Frost living towards the bottom. I enjoy both specs and have mained DK since the Firelands, but it's time to embrace this or get ran over for the rest of ToS.

Suffer well.

I agree entirely. Your thorough analysis of the quantitative data from less than 48 hours of Tomb should be the final nail in the coffin on this argument! /s

No really, its not even been 48 hours. For EU its been less than 24? Many guilds haven't even set foot into the instance and many top guilds do split clears for maximum loot. There is very little to be gained from looking at ANYTHING this early. Once people are a couple weeks in, with tier, with trinkets,and with boss practice, THEN we can START to make a conclusion about what specs will perform well and what won't.

[Deleted]

And frost isn't bad at all. I was performing really good with many 97-99%iles, being very strong and beating our 2 unholy DKs on nearly every fight...

And there's still a lot of room. I don't have T20 and chest, so there's room for improving. Shorter and stronger BOS will help even more, and learning the encounters is very important as frost DK. Some timings were pretty off (so i could've used breath later with synced CDs or used breath shortly before phase change.

I don't the current result on warcraftlogs is a psychological result. People don't even try frost anymore so frost underperforms. It's fine because frost is better than its reputation. MUCH BETTER.

[Ashaeron]

And frost isn't bad at all. I was performing really good with many 97-99%iles, being very strong and beating our 2 unholy DKs on nearly every fight...

And there's still a lot of room. I don't have T20 and chest, so there's room for improving. Shorter and stronger BOS will help even more, and learning the encounters is very important as frost DK. Some timings were pretty off (so i could've used breath later with synced CDs or used breath shortly before phase change.

I don't the current result on warcraftlogs is a psychological result. People don't even try frost anymore so frost underperforms. It's fine because frost is better than its reputation. MUCH BETTER.

You can't use percentile scores this early, there aren't enough logs up to actually give an accurate read, because only maybe 20% of the population has cleared anything.

[Prussian]

All I can go off of are logs and how it felt in ToS Normal tonight. It didn't feel great.

I was always one of the top few (usually top 3) DPS classes in NH Heroic and I was having a tough time hitting the middle of the DPS pack tonight. There's enough movement to make the high uptime on BoS more difficult. If UH Tier 20 is better than Frost, I doubt Frost will come close to it.

Again, just my personal feel in ToS Normal.

[Deleted]

You can't use percentile scores this early, there aren't enough logs up to actually give an accurate read, because only maybe 20% of the population has cleared anything.

My point is: it looks like barely any good players play frost so frost falls back in logs. It was always easier to get high percentiles in specs that arent played by top players.

Seeing i can get 99% iles after fucking up the first breath shows me that there is no comoetition yet so frost looks weaker than it really is.

Our unholy DK already said to me that he will try frost again on some bosses after i beat him on 80% of fights. And that is now after making so many mistakes as frost and before i got t20 and chest.

Frosts problem is: you cant just mindlessly run into a fight and press BOS on CD, especially with belt/soN. I already switched to bracers for shorter and steonger breaths and when i get leg chest, i d go for bracers+chest on many fights because of shorter breaths.

[edw]

For frost i was getting more dps with the old pices, you can keep breath a lot longer and have smoother play style. But yeah Unholy might beat frost.

I'd switch to unholy in a hearth beat, but i got no legs for it (none), frost is very limited on planning and if you need to adjust you lose your dps for the whole fight. But unholy is more flexible, a lot more flexible.

[Deleted]

My point is: it looks like barely any good players play frost so frost falls back in logs. It was always easier to get high percentiles in specs that arent played by top players.

Seeing i can get 99% iles after fucking up the first breath shows me that there is no comoetition yet so frost looks weaker than it really is.

Our unholy DK already said to me that he will try frost again on some bosses after i beat him on 80% of fights. And that is now after making so many mistakes as frost and before i got t20 and chest.

Frosts problem is: you cant just mindlessly run into a fight and press BOS on CD, especially with belt/soN. I already switched to bracers for shorter and steonger breaths and when i get leg chest, i d go for bracers+chest on many fights because of shorter breaths.

Agreed. Startet with Belt/SoN, but decided to upgrade Wrists first and drop the belt. Sometimes you are just forced to cancel breaths although i could have kept it running for a while -_- ( e.g. maiden switching sides, KJ first Intermission) Time of Long breaths is over. On some bosses our UH beat me on some bosses i beat him.

I will decide once i have the chest, T20 and new trinkets.

[meumaxu]

I watched all video guides and you are completely talking bull shit. There isn't a lot of movement (where is that rumour coming from?), there's definitely some 2 target cleave (where frost is king).

And if you cant keep up breath 10s, it's just your fault. It's our job to use breath when we have some uptime on boss and you sound like all melees are basically useless in TOS. Because no melee is good when he has less than 90% uptime on targets (actually it's more like 95% because of how powerful ranged are).

THERE ISNT A LOT OF MOVEMENT L U L ... 7/9H here and YES there is a lot of movement and frost is 100% crap. Frost is officialy dead

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My point is: it looks like barely any good players play frost so frost falls back in logs. It was always easier to get high percentiles in specs that arent played by top players.

Seeing i can get 99% iles after fucking up the first breath shows me that there is no comoetition yet so frost looks weaker than it really is.

Our unholy DK already said to me that he will try frost again on some bosses after i beat him on 80% of fights. And that is now after making so many mistakes as frost and before i got t20 and chest.

Frosts problem is: you cant just mindlessly run into a fight and press BOS on CD, especially with belt/soN. I already switched to bracers for shorter and steonger breaths and when i get leg chest, i d go for bracers+chest on many fights because of shorter breaths.

Are you running Heroic? Show logs plz i wanna see this magic performance you are talking about... FROST is totally crap

[Deleted]

THERE ISNT A LOT OF MOVEMENT L U L ... 7/9H here and YES there is a lot of movement and frost is 100% crap. Frost is officialy dead

He's right. Frost needs a significant rework to be any good again, BOS spec is way too unforgiving (Not because keeping up a long breath is actually hard if you have more than 2 braincells, but because you're *Forced* to move on most bosses). Atm it seems it's either move all the time, switch to adds and do the encounters properly then get moaned at by your RL for low dps, or stick on the boss and get 6-7th on the metre but then get moaned at by your RL for tunnelling and ignoring mechanics. Our damage is that dependant on keeping BOS up it's a total joke.

I'm severely tempted to reroll something like an Affliction lock, as apparently Blizzard thinks its acceptable for them to be top on most bosses for another entire raid tier when we're only having fun for one. Even after a frigging 5% nerf. On the couple of fights in TOS Aff locks don't roflstomp their other 2 specs are in the top 3 anyway. CBA with Unholy and it's only middle of the pack.

[RuneDK]

All I can go off of are logs and how it felt in ToS Normal tonight. It didn't feel great.

I was always one of the top few (usually top 3) DPS classes in NH Heroic and I was having a tough time hitting the middle of the DPS pack tonight. There's enough movement to make the high uptime on BoS more difficult. If UH Tier 20 is better than Frost, I doubt Frost will come close to it.

Again, just my personal feel in ToS Normal.

The problem is you probably don't have tier 20....I will flat out agree with T19 Frost feels way behind. But I'm waiting to see what happens when I get Tier pieces.

[Iteryion]

I've raided ToS yesterday playing unholy - was being #1-2 spot constantly. it feels pretty good tbh. The fights there dont really favor frost at all. I embraced the change, I mean I like my class no matter the spec so i dont mind changing.

[jashmaster]

THERE ISNT A LOT OF MOVEMENT L U L ... 7/9H here and YES there is a lot of movement and frost is 100% crap. Frost is officialy dead

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Are you running Heroic? Show logs plz i wanna see this magic performance you are talking about... FROST is totally crap

Frost is not total crap. Doing the heroic runs the past few days ive still kept up my damage compared to the rest of the raid (albeit during splits). However i do believe that unholy will pull ahead assuming you have the shoulders/chest legendary and 4set :/
Below is screenshots of Heroic Avatar in a 30 man group. Dont count frost out of the water especially without the new tier!
http://imgur.com/a/Av6Tx

[Shazdk]

Whoever says there isn't a lot of movement hasn't done Maiden and Avatar, like holy fucking shit it's so aids. I almost think that a ring-less playstyle like bracers/chest or bracers/belt would be better just because the second HRW you never get to use because you gotta run the fuck away from the boss half the time. Seems like we need to reorient the playstyle toward the "short but effective" breath build e.g. high burst with bracers/chest and just fuck duration altogether. Though Blizz kinda fucked that a bit with BR nerf because the short & effective playstyle was mostly fishing for rimes and building a quick GS 10 stack inside of pillar/potion/bracers window.

8/9H for reference if that matters

Also @jashmaster depends on if Maiden is close by because you can cindy/breath cleave/Rime cleave and do like 250k more DPS, too bad Maiden damage doesn't mean anything. Link boss damage and I'll give you credit if more than 80% of that damage was on boss lmao.

[RuneDK]

Maiden will have opportunities for a breath build. But it's already been discussed about ring losing a lot of value. If I had belt I would run belt/wrist instead of ring/wrist. I'm debating throwing the memejeans on for this raid until I get the chest.

[Nemesquish]

Frost is good on KJ atleast.

Small victory's boys.

[RuneDK]

Frost is good on KJ atleast.

Small victory's boys.

I don't think we're going to gain much ground anyways....but I still want to wait to see the mythic statistics.

[oldnmean]

Frost is not total crap. Doing the heroic runs the past few days ive still kept up my damage compared to the rest of the raid (albeit during splits). However i do believe that unholy will pull ahead assuming you have the shoulders/chest legendary and 4set :/
Below is screenshots of Heroic Avatar in a 30 man group. Dont count frost out of the water especially without the new tier!
http://imgur.com/a/Av6Tx

Simc analysis is showing that unholy and frost tier are offering similar gains for both 2P and 4P, with frost slightly better tho the difference is under 1%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sle=true#gid=0

[Nemesquish]

I don't think we're going to gain much ground anyways....but I still want to wait to see the mythic statistics.

Frost will pick up a bit when everyone knows the burst windows for every fight, It's probably the worst spec in the game to knee jerk to. (Though it prob wont pick up a huge amount)

[Ange]

Tried today _FROST_ CHEST/WRIST + 4 T20 + Convergence/HoV combo in NH M. It felt great, DPS was better and above my T19 numbers and the short BoS is easy so use aswell.

I used in ToS N _UNHOLY_ with BRACER/CLEAVE_RING + 4 T20 + 2 T19 and it was super easy to play. Im not a big fan of the SHOULDERS/CHEST playstyle, tried it with only 2x T20 and it is way more demanding to play compared to the BRACER/RING style.

Im happy I kept both weapons at similar levels, 57 and 58, so I can use the best spec for each fight, but currently I don't see any fights where I could be above unholy, when unholy is played with the AoE heavy BRACER/RING combo.