1. #1
    Deleted

    Question is 10man the best comp for ToS?

    I hear people say its a very solid comp for this raid, less debuffs to deal with, less mistakes etc. Bosses like Maiden of Vigilance dies so easily with 10man comp apprently. Would you say this comp is solid for normal + hc ?? 2-2-6

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Zabuzan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Uldir
    Posts
    486
    I'll guess you mean for TOS Heroic (because in 900+ gear Normal is trivial).

    Typically, on Heroic when you get down to smaller group sizes, some of the mechanics are significantly harder to deal with in small groups because of how damage done by ability X, or number of pools needing to be soaked, or "insert mechanic per number of players" scales.

    The benefit of a smaller group size is that you have more space to work with per person and it's less visually hectic so often easier to isolate problems without needing to check logs. This may be a benefit on Mistress (because RIP FPS on that fight in large groups) and Maiden (fewer people to fail and spread bombs throughout half of the raid.

    Most of Heroic wasn't particularly hard for a NH Mythic geared group, my guild is undergeared too as we had minimal farm last tier, but we cleared 9/9NM and 8/9HC yesterday. When we got to Fallen Avatar, our 30-man starting team had dwindled down to 13 and we really struggled with a lot of very close wipes:
    • In Phase 1 there are 3 pools to soak, each pool needs at least 2 people to survive, but 3 to make it more comfortable for the healers.
    • With a 13 man group and the DPS comp we had, we needed to 2 heal it to stand a chance of beating the DPS check before getting wiped out in Phase 2. This felt really tightly tuned for a Heroic encounter.
    • One of our DPS finished work and got back online for a final few pulls, so we could switch to 3 heal with a 14-man group, making the whole thing much more comfortable. Still tightly tuned at our ilvl though.
    • In Phase 2, there are 3 sets of the soaking/knockback debuff that go out even on small raid sizes. This causes havoc later in the phase when the damage the raid is taking per second is ramping up. We got around it with the class comp we had, by saving immunities for later in the phase (Feral Druid/Hunterx2/Magex2/Ret/Hpala/Rogue all able to solo them). But this could be very challenging in a small group with a less optimal comp for solo soaking.

    I am confident that when we reclear on Tuesday before reset to get the people that missed out a kill, with a 25-30 man group, it will be:
    • Significantly less tight on the DPS requirement
    • Significantly easier on the positional requirement to ensure everyone is in healing range (ideally of multiple healers) whilst dealing with all the other mechanics.
    • A lot more hectic and probably more deaths, lower execution score - but still a kill.

    I'm guessing KJ will be a similar story, but we'll see when we have a look at it tonight

    The above is just an example, but it's been seen time and again in previous tiers as well. There are undoubtedly some bosses where smaller group sizes are a net benefit. However, usually on the tougher encounters and at the very least more often than not on an average encounter, a large group size makes the Heroic boss easier to plough down.
    Last edited by Zabuzan; 2017-06-22 at 03:31 PM.
    <Judge> Alonsus-EU. 6/8M Uldir
    Prot Paladin
    RECRUITING FOR BFA!

  3. #3
    They are wrong. Best comp is 30 people, because the more the better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Zabuzan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Uldir
    Posts
    486
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeht View Post
    They are wrong. Best comp is 30 people, because the more the better.
    ^^ If you take my post, TLDR it and make it straight to the point and put it in a world of black and white. (It's kinda true!)
    <Judge> Alonsus-EU. 6/8M Uldir
    Prot Paladin
    RECRUITING FOR BFA!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabuzan View Post
    ^^ If you take my post, TLDR it and make it straight to the point and put it in a world of black and white. (It's kinda true!)
    I'm quite sure that blizzard want it so more is better, because only other way will make some people really unhappy about how there can be 30 people in raid but RL will only pick 2-2-6 because it is 'easier'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,094
    Some boss are bound to be easier for smaller comp but it's like that every raid, some boss are easier for 30 man grp some are ezier for small grp. The scaling/number of debuff etc. is hard to do perfectly.

    Last night we started pulling maiden with a 30 man group and even when every one was stacked the hammer seemed to destroy us, i was getting cheat death on quit some pull, if we were missing 1 or 2 people because death / unstable souls the dmg was insane. After a couple of try and only 15 more min to raid time we cuted some plp and went to 20ish. The hammer instantly felt less of a threat. After the soak every one was at 40ish% instead of the 10ish% we had with the 30 man grp.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabuzan View Post
    I'll guess you mean for TOS Heroic (because in 900+ gear Normal is trivial).

    Typically, on Heroic when you get down to smaller group sizes, some of the mechanics are significantly harder to deal with in small groups because of how damage done by ability X, or number of pools needing to be soaked, or "insert mechanic per number of players" scales.

    The benefit of a smaller group size is that you have more space to work with per person and it's less visually hectic so often easier to isolate problems without needing to check logs. This may be a benefit on Mistress (because RIP FPS on that fight in large groups) and Maiden (fewer people to fail and spread bombs throughout half of the raid.

    Most of Heroic wasn't particularly hard for a NH Mythic geared group, my guild is undergeared too as we had minimal farm last tier, but we cleared 10/10NM and 9/10HC yesterday. When we got to Fallen Avatar, our 30-man starting team had dwindled down to 13 and we really struggled with a lot of very close wipes:
    • In Phase 1 there are 3 pools to soak, each pool needs at least 2 people to survive, but 3 to make it more comfortable for the healers.
    • With a 13 man group and the DPS comp we had, we needed to 2 heal it to stand a chance of beating the DPS check before getting wiped out in Phase 2. This felt really tightly tuned for a Heroic encounter.
    • One of our DPS finished work and got back online for a final few pulls, so we could switch to 3 heal with a 14-man group, making the whole thing much more comfortable. Still tightly tuned at our ilvl though.
    • In Phase 2, there are 3 sets of the soaking/knockback debuff that go out even on small raid sizes. This causes havoc later in the phase when the damage the raid is taking per second is ramping up. We got around it with the class comp we had, by saving immunities for later in the phase (Feral Druid/Hunterx2/Magex2/Ret/Hpala/Rogue all able to solo them). But this could be very challenging in a small group with a less optimal comp for solo soaking.

    I am confident that when we reclear on Tuesday before reset to get the people that missed out a kill, with a 25-30 man group, it will be:
    • Significantly less tight on the DPS requirement
    • Significantly easier on the positional requirement to ensure everyone is in healing range (ideally of multiple healers) whilst dealing with all the other mechanics.
    • A lot more hectic and probably more deaths, lower execution score - but still a kill.

    I'm guessing KJ will be a similar story, but we'll see when we have a look at it tonight

    The above is just an example, but it's been seen time and again in previous tiers as well. There are undoubtedly some bosses where smaller group sizes are a net benefit. However, usually on the tougher encounters and at the very least more often than not on an average encounter, a large group size makes the Heroic boss easier to plough down.
    The raid has 9 bosses not 10.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Zabuzan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Uldir
    Posts
    486
    Good point, fixed it. Quoting my whole text wall to call me out on 2 incorrect figures seems a bit OTT though! :P
    <Judge> Alonsus-EU. 6/8M Uldir
    Prot Paladin
    RECRUITING FOR BFA!

  9. #9
    We had 12 for normal and were 2 healing most of it. 2nd boss there were 3 dispels out (maybe on 10 man its only 2), so that might be a required 3 heal fight on heroic. KJ we had to 3 heal since it was rather intensive for tank burst and p2 / 2nd intermission healing.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Maiden dies easy regardless of the comp, just need to make sure you have people that know the difference between yellow and green.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabuzan View Post
    I'll guess you mean for TOS Heroic (because in 900+ gear Normal is trivial).

    Typically, on Heroic when you get down to smaller group sizes, some of the mechanics are significantly harder to deal with in small groups because of how damage done by ability X, or number of pools needing to be soaked, or "insert mechanic per number of players" scales.

    The benefit of a smaller group size is that you have more space to work with per person and it's less visually hectic so often easier to isolate problems without needing to check logs. This may be a benefit on Mistress (because RIP FPS on that fight in large groups) and Maiden (fewer people to fail and spread bombs throughout half of the raid.

    Most of Heroic wasn't particularly hard for a NH Mythic geared group, my guild is undergeared too as we had minimal farm last tier, but we cleared 9/9NM and 8/9HC yesterday. When we got to Fallen Avatar, our 30-man starting team had dwindled down to 13 and we really struggled with a lot of very close wipes:
    • In Phase 1 there are 3 pools to soak, each pool needs at least 2 people to survive, but 3 to make it more comfortable for the healers.
    • With a 13 man group and the DPS comp we had, we needed to 2 heal it to stand a chance of beating the DPS check before getting wiped out in Phase 2. This felt really tightly tuned for a Heroic encounter.
    • One of our DPS finished work and got back online for a final few pulls, so we could switch to 3 heal with a 14-man group, making the whole thing much more comfortable. Still tightly tuned at our ilvl though.
    • In Phase 2, there are 3 sets of the soaking/knockback debuff that go out even on small raid sizes. This causes havoc later in the phase when the damage the raid is taking per second is ramping up. We got around it with the class comp we had, by saving immunities for later in the phase (Feral Druid/Hunterx2/Magex2/Ret/Hpala/Rogue all able to solo them). But this could be very challenging in a small group with a less optimal comp for solo soaking.

    I am confident that when we reclear on Tuesday before reset to get the people that missed out a kill, with a 25-30 man group, it will be:
    • Significantly less tight on the DPS requirement
    • Significantly easier on the positional requirement to ensure everyone is in healing range (ideally of multiple healers) whilst dealing with all the other mechanics.
    • A lot more hectic and probably more deaths, lower execution score - but still a kill.

    I'm guessing KJ will be a similar story, but we'll see when we have a look at it tonight

    The above is just an example, but it's been seen time and again in previous tiers as well. There are undoubtedly some bosses where smaller group sizes are a net benefit. However, usually on the tougher encounters and at the very least more often than not on an average encounter, a large group size makes the Heroic boss easier to plough down.
    It's not even remotely tight on heroic with a 910 group. The tuning of these bosses on heroic feels easier than the bosses in Heroic nighthold (the first week).

    Then again the fight mechanics are extremely simple, so it's probably going to be very punishing on mythic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •