Thank You Holinka & Team

[Cempa]

Just wanted to give a shout-out to Holinka (even though hes gone) and team for the changes this patch, I can't find the words to describe how I fell each time I step into PvP .. So many Arms and MM's running around with the cherry on top of subs .. The game is just .. how do I say it .. indescribable ..

So, this thread is for all of you who want to share how this patch made them feel about this great game we all love ..

[Justpassing]

>pvp in wow

Yeah I really feel for you

I'm sorry for being a dick but when was pvp in wow ever balanced? (hint: it's not supposed to be balanced, it's meant to be a rollercoaster)

[RelaZ]

>pvp in wow

Yeah I really feel for you

I'm sorry for being a dick but when was pvp in wow ever balanced? (hint: it's not supposed to be balanced, it's meant to be a rollercoaster)

Nah. It's not. It's certainly been quite balanced at some points, a lot more than most of Legion.

But that's not even the main issue with Legion, the main issue is PVP class design.

[Deleted]

Arena is 90% Warriors atm. It's horendous >.>

[Kynario]

PvP was at its peak on Wrath of the Lich King, at least in my eyes. I hope they return to a somewhat similar model. Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[Arrashi]

>pvp in wow

Yeah I really feel for you

I'm sorry for being a dick but when was pvp in wow ever balanced? (hint: it's not supposed to be balanced, it's meant to be a rollercoaster)

It may never be balanced, but it very rarely (if ever) were as bad as it is nowadays (ignoring all pre-expansion patches). The fact that warriors made it live in a way they are now proves that either devs simlpy dont play the game, they dont test the changes or that simply they dont care. Or all 3.

[Deathquoi]

Just wanted to give a shout-out to Holinka (even though hes gone) and team for the changes this patch, I can't find the words to describe how I fell each time I step into PvP .. So many Arms and MM's running around with the cherry on top of subs .. The game is just .. how do I say it .. indescribable ..

So, this thread is for all of you who want to share how this patch made them feel about this great game we all love ..

I mean, I'm not the expert on PvP balance, but basically for 90% of WoW's existence PvP has been dominated by Arms warriors and MM/BM hunters so this is not really anything new.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Holinka was clearly an incompetent fool that had no clue what he was doing. I don't know why they refuse to hire players or former players. There are so many of them who are qualified professionals, and very passionate about the game. Instead they give the PvP senior designer role to a man that literally didn't know wtf he was doing.

[Caolela]

I've said it 500 times before but looks like it needs to be said again: I'm sure Blizz is much happier for people thinking they're "incompetent" or "just don't care" or "they don't play their own game", instead of the fact that Blizz knows exactly what they're doing and almost all of this bullshit is fully intended.

Does anyone with more than a few brain cells really think a $4+ billion corp. like Acti is going to suddenly allow totally "incompetent" devs or lead devs to wreck the golden goose that they've made hundreds of millions on over a decade? That is illogical and from a business standpoint is plain stupid.

Holunki was doing what he was told in the larger sense by his bosses (anything that keeps people subbed longer is good), it was his job to implement the specifics. The problem is, what he/they did to PvP they miscalculated would be so unpopular. They assumed everyone would just keep plowing through it.

Balance (let's say within a few % points) is the last thing they want in WoW. Blizz has never wanted balance, since that would discourage FotM rerolls which means you're more likely to stay with a single spec/class or just a few and finish what you want for those specs, instead of shelving your main and rerolling the new OP. That in turn means longer time-in-game and hence longer subs. And, the longer you're in-game the greater the chance that you'll spend money in the Blizz Shop or for services, etc.

Acti/Blizz knows they still have a virtual monopoly on the MMORPG genre, and an army greater than any on Earth of addicted fools willing to keep plopping down money to play it. It almost doesn't matter how many quit until some number is reached that they have to start doing something about. Even then, they throttle back just enough to appease people to stay.

[Eapoe]

PvP was at its peak on Wrath of the Lich King, at least in my eyes. I hope they return to a somewhat similar model. Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Was that the patch that DKs were 1v3'ing people in arena? Or the later patch that had Paladins globaling other players, while they got guaranteed crits against Forsaken? Maybe the patch where a Rogue and Lock could keep 1 player perma stunned where they nuked a teammate?
PVP has never been balanced. The issue is that it FELT like there was a skill cap involved because there was a small tiny portion of "which CC do I break, when, and how do I coordinate our chain CC with my team against them," whereas now it's about who nukes who the hardest. Warriors are all over because they have a very nice macro of what to spam against a player, where some other class/specs seem to be stuck in a previous xpac of controlling the opposite team.

[Jwowwxoxo]

I mean, I'm not the expert on PvP balance, but basically for 90% of WoW's existence PvP has been dominated by Arms warriors and MM/BM hunters so this is not really anything new.

*mage/rogue (fixed for you)

[Queen of Hamsters]

Eh, I'm used to never seeing the PVP community be happy by now. They weren't in WOTLK, they'll never be as a collective.

[Velshin]

The most balanced pvp season in WoW in my personal opinion was season 7 in Wotlk the relentless gladiator set season.

[re1gn1te]

>pvp in wow

Yeah I really feel for you

I'm sorry for being a dick but when was pvp in wow ever balanced? (hint: it's not supposed to be balanced, it's meant to be a rollercoaster)

Last season of MoP.

[Deathquoi]

*mage/rogue (fixed for you)

Nope, it's pretty much always been warriors and hunters. Mages and rogues have always been good but warriors and hunters have been OP to the point of infuriating far more often.

[RelaZ]

I've said it 500 times before but looks like it needs to be said again: I'm sure Blizz is much happier for people thinking they're "incompetent" or "just don't care" or "they don't play their own game", instead of the fact that Blizz knows exactly what they're doing and almost all of this bullshit is fully intended.

Does anyone with more than a few brain cells really think a $4+ billion corp. like Acti is going to suddenly allow totally "incompetent" devs or lead devs to wreck the golden goose that they've made hundreds of millions on over a decade? That is illogical and from a business standpoint is plain stupid.

Holunki was doing what he was told in the larger sense by his bosses (anything that keeps people subbed longer is good), it was his job to implement the specifics. The problem is, what he/they did to PvP they miscalculated would be so unpopular. They assumed everyone would just keep plowing through it.

Balance (let's say within a few % points) is the last thing they want in WoW. Blizz has never wanted balance, since that would discourage FotM rerolls which means you're more likely to stay with a single spec/class or just a few and finish what you want for those specs, instead of shelving your main and rerolling the new OP. That in turn means longer time-in-game and hence longer subs. And, the longer you're in-game the greater the chance that you'll spend money in the Blizz Shop or for services, etc.

Acti/Blizz knows they still have a virtual monopoly on the MMORPG genre, and an army greater than any on Earth of addicted fools willing to keep plopping down money to play it. It almost doesn't matter how many quit until some number is reached that they have to start doing something about. Even then, they throttle back just enough to appease people to stay.

Fully agree, Holinka was indeed just a tool to fullfill the business side of Blizzard's goals.

But, I hope that they realize that the direction they've been going in WoD & Legion (PvP-wise) is absolutely not working (pruning, RNG gearing & PvE class design in PvP) and that by changing their ways can make more money of off PvP than they have in Legion and WoD. Those things are first and foremost:

• Make a competent (unbiased) ex-pro PvPer in charge of PvP as the new lead dev. Someone like Azael, Hoodrych or Talbadar.
• Let that dev make an actual change. Let that guy not be a tool.

If they just appoint a well liked PvPer as the lead dev but tie his hands and force him to continue the same way we've been heading for quite some time this game is quite literally screwed PvP-wise. This next upcoming expansion is, literally, the last chance to save WoW PvP. And in order to do so Blizzard will have to move away from paradigms that have been in this game for quite some time (some since it's inception), in particular these ones:

• Keep people on the treadmill whatever the cost
• Design PvP as a minigame for PvErs instead of as the main attraction for PvP players
• PvP & PvE can't be too separated - we can't change how classes work in PvP too drastically, it's not a good idea

Point 1 is a new paradigm, basically after WoD's extreme content-draught and general boredom Blizzard opted to do a 180 and force so much farming, grinding and RNG down our throats people are leaving (and up until 7.2.5 didn't want to come back because low AK means you can't catch up). There needs to be a middle ground. Allow some AP/AK - but cap it (like Legion S2). Allow some RNG in getting PvP gear, but ensure there is a way to target the exact piece you want at a vendor too (via currency not gained by means of RNG).

Point 3 is the oldest paradigm and has always been enforced pretty harshly up until Legion (with some exceptions obviously). The problem is - at this point they've turned PvE class design into something completely different than what it was before and as such PvE class design does simply not work for PvP any more - simply put it's boring and makes for boring PvP. They partly tried to ammend this with "PvP honor talents", but 6 PvP-only talents rows are not enough to make up for that design and the system needs to be expanded upon for the next expansion (more talent rows, automatically earned perks that change mechanics and give spells back as a baseline in PvP etc).

When it comes to Point 2 it kind of weaves into Point 3. Blizzard stated back during Legion development that they want PvP class design to be like TBC (CC, number of abilities etc) - the problem with that is if you go back and watch TBC PvP videos it all looks extremely boring, even the best players' movies look incredibly boring. It was good at the time because we hadn't seen anything better (I loved it at the time) but going back there today is definitely not something PvPers want. Trying to aim for something that isn't what PvPers want is only going to cause a continued mass exodus of PvPers. So why would they do it? Because it's what PvErs want. PvErs remember TBC very fondly and were (and are still) on board with the PvP design for the Legion release. Blizzard went through with that design even though the alpha/beta PvP forums were nothing but complaints about pruning/bad rotations/passives etc. PvErs don't play PvP - don't design it for them, it would be akin to designing every raid encounter like the ToC Faction Champions fight and expecting PvErs to keep playing the game (PvPers had no issues with that fight, but PvErs hated it). To me it's an obvious nobrainer but I guess I was wrong. So obviously, this mentality needs to change. Again, design classes (in PvP) such that PvPers will enjoy playing them, and in order to do so we need to separate PvP class design from PvE class design more (unless PvE class design changes drastically, which I highly doubt it will).

I'll end my extrordinarily long post with this link from the Legion alpha PvP forums http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...amage-buttons/, just know that the entire thread (basically every single post) was just bashing on Legion (PvP) class design.

[Caolela]

Good post, Relaz, and I agree with much of it. But, I have no trust or confidence in Blizzard to change things significantly enough to right the wrongs they've created. They're too far down the rabbit hole and have done this for too long.

Like after WoD when people thought, 'hey it can't get any worse' so they bought Legion, while Blizz hyped the hell out of templates and how great it was going to be that "gear doesn't matter", but everything else matters as much as gear and there is still that 9.5 % gap and imbalance, still the bullshit racials, and all the rest.

Blizzard's mentality is pushing the limits of what players will tolerate for the sake of maxing profit, and if people feel screwed over well hey "that's business". They get away with it because they have the luxuries of:

1) not having to refund the cost of products/services to unsatisfied customers

2) virtual monopoly on the genre

3) a sub-based model (must keep paying if you want to use the product you paid for). Most other games (non-sub) or products & services don't have those ways to take advantage.

You don't hire a lawyer as lead dev if you're looking to make a game for players instead of "increasing shareholder value", or bring in the biggest douchebag from Diablo (Jay 'Shut Up PvP Guy' Wilson) to make it a RNG grind, then he leaves to retire at 42 years old.

As long as Blizz is guided by this race-to-the-bottom philosophy (despite the cheap talk in blue posts or Q&A sessions), I don't see WoW getting much better.

[Charge me Doctor]

Just wanted to give a shout-out to Holinka (even though hes gone) and team for the changes this patch, I can't find the words to describe how I fell each time I step into PvP .. So many Arms and MM's running around with the cherry on top of subs .. The game is just .. how do I say it .. indescribable ..

So, this thread is for all of you who want to share how this patch made them feel about this great game we all love ..

Throw in frost mage and dis priest and i would say that wow pvp hasn't changed a bit since a fucking release of pvp in wow

[Arrashi]

I've said it 500 times before but looks like it needs to be said again: I'm sure Blizz is much happier for people thinking they're "incompetent" or "just don't care" or "they don't play their own game", instead of the fact that Blizz knows exactly what they're doing and almost all of this bullshit is fully intended.

Does anyone with more than a few brain cells really think a $4+ billion corp. like Acti is going to suddenly allow totally "incompetent" devs or lead devs to wreck the golden goose that they've made hundreds of millions on over a decade? That is illogical and from a business standpoint is plain stupid.

Holunki was doing what he was told in the larger sense by his bosses (anything that keeps people subbed longer is good), it was his job to implement the specifics. The problem is, what he/they did to PvP they miscalculated would be so unpopular. They assumed everyone would just keep plowing through it.

Balance (let's say within a few % points) is the last thing they want in WoW. Blizz has never wanted balance, since that would discourage FotM rerolls which means you're more likely to stay with a single spec/class or just a few and finish what you want for those specs, instead of shelving your main and rerolling the new OP. That in turn means longer time-in-game and hence longer subs. And, the longer you're in-game the greater the chance that you'll spend money in the Blizz Shop or for services, etc.

Acti/Blizz knows they still have a virtual monopoly on the MMORPG genre, and an army greater than any on Earth of addicted fools willing to keep plopping down money to play it. It almost doesn't matter how many quit until some number is reached that they have to start doing something about. Even then, they throttle back just enough to appease people to stay.

Normally i would say its just conspiracy...but now i dont know. I mean, its hard to believe that they can fail so hard if they honestly are trying. The state of pvp now feels almost like masterfully crafted sabotage.

[Caolela]

Well Arrashi - if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...it's usually a duck. It doesn't have to come up and introduce itself.

We also know that Blizz doesn't report sub numbers anymore, but reports to shareholders on overall amount of time-in-game/time subbed. We still have racials that they can switch at will and cause mass faction hopping for $30./ea.

Another example is when a Blizz dev came out and said (paraphrasing), "Well, Demonology has had its time in the sun, blah blah..." when they nerfed its trinkets. They simply rotate through whichever specs they decide will be OP this patch, but leave a few underpowered so they can make those OP the next time.

It also was not mere coincidence that when they planned all this for Legion, they knew they'd have Overwatch up and running. They assumed many players that hated the Legion system would just go play OW for their PvP fix, which they did.

It couldn't be any more obvious.