NO BUFFS to retribution

[Morally Grey Storm]

You clearly dont understand what's the difference between a "hybrid class" and "hybrid specs"... so I'm not gonna be bothered with your rant!

By all means, please do enlighten us on this point as well what does it have to do with dps standings, would you kindly.

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Ah, you've already robbed us of your omnipotent presence.
Well, don't let us detain you any minute longer.

[rad586]

People still think Hybrid tax is a thing or should be a thing. How cute.

Just because you can switch from dps to heal/tank you should deal less damage ? What is this logic ? Do you even comprehend what it means switching from dps to healing/tanking ?

It's not just switching gear. It's not just switching specs. It's switching to different tactics, which means (in most cases) it includes re-learning the fight, as different roles have to watch out for different mechanics.

DPS don't have to worry about tank debuffs. DPS usually don't have to worry about cleave. DPS don't have to worry about unavoidable AoE damage. DPS don't have to worry about using correct defensive CDs to not become a wet stain on the floor.

As pure DPS class, you have a choice of multiple specs.
Combat sucks ? You can switch to Assasination or Subtetly.
Fire sucks ? Arcane or frost.
Survival sucks ? BM or MM are there for you.

Some hybrid classes have choices aswell.
Balance is low ? There's Feral.
Arms sucks ? There's Fury.
Ench sucks ? There's Elemental
Frost sucks ? Go Unholy.

You're a Paladin/DH/Priest, your dps spec sucks and you don't like / are not confident in tanking/healing? You're fucked.

[Reith]

But seriously, do I have to explain stuff so even my 4yo would understand? Dude is talking about "hybrid spec", i.e. like you could do back in vanilla, spread points in all trees, which is not possible today. "We" are a hybrid class, meaning we can (with a click of a button) swap between 3 different roles, something a mage/rogue/lock cant do. I don't see it weird that we aren't and shouldn't be top of the charts as dps, due to us having options to swap roles where a mage simply have to reroll to achieve the same result. We have a nice fallback BUT if someone just wanna dps with the pally, yeah we have a very big disadvantage as the pure dps classes usually have atleast ONE spec that is good, while we are dependent on our ONLY one to be good else we suck (which is almost the case now, part from padding meters on add-fights).

That said, hybrid classes have the option to swap role easier than pure dps classes, hence why blizzard probably aint putting maximum effort into our dps role with the mindset that "well, they can always pick another spec".. heck if I know... but fact remains, pure dps classes makes sense to have slightly higher dps due to being pigeonholed into one role. We can swap roles, but most of us dont want to (understandable), so we suffer harder from a badly designed spec.

Your argument can be mitigated as such in the fact that it's easier than ever to level an alt and get it to competitive levels in very little time, compared to any time in previous expansions - so just switch classes. It's actually easier than switching roles because you're not relearning the game in its entirety from a different gameplay perspective. Checkmate.

Also, my personal preference is for Retribution alone. Not Holy, not Protection, not any other class. If I'm not playing Ret, I'm not playing the game.

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Don't put too much stock into sims. Our ret in the guild is actually always middle to lower top of the charts. Always depends on the fights of course.

If he's always middle, many people in your guild aren't proficient. Not saying that's either a good or a bad thing; many people in my guild aren't, either. Just because I top the meter, doesn't mean Ret's in a good place. I place no trust in anecdotes.

[Guyviroth]

No, ret doesn't need a buff. What it needs is a talent redesign.

[Deleted]

If he's always middle, many people in your guild aren't proficient. Not saying that's either a good or a bad thing; many people in my guild aren't, either. Just because I top the meter, doesn't mean Ret's in a good place. I place no trust in anecdotes.

As I don't place trust in sims. Especially in mythic, there is PLENTY of other factors why rets are good for a raid group. Not the least of which is survivability, ability to short-term tank, etc.

Also, I could turn around your argument and say "Just because you're not at the top of the meter doesn't necessarily mean that Ret's in a bad place", but that's juvenile, so I won't

Probably this whole "Burst is awesome, rest is weak" playstyle is just the wrong way to go. Take away Ret's wings and up their sustained and they would be much easier to balance.

[Reith]

As I don't place trust in sims. Especially in mythic, there is PLENTY of other factors why rets are good for a raid group. Not the least of which is survivability, ability to short-term tank, etc.

Also, I could turn around your argument and say "Just because you're not at the top of the meter doesn't necessarily mean that Ret's in a bad place", but that's juvenile, so I won't

Probably this whole "Burst is awesome, rest is weak" playstyle is just the wrong way to go. Take away Ret's wings and up their sustained and they would be much easier to balance.

I don't place any trust in sims, either, lol? Why are you mentioning sims? I look at data. Ret is not doing as well when you look at the data. Tens of thousands of ToS logs.

[Morally Grey Storm]

No, ret doesn't need a buff. What it needs is a talent redesign.

Failing to receive a redesign, and you can bet your behind it will fail, it should receive a buff.
Failing to receive a buff, you can bet your behind it will still lag behind, propped by gimmicks .

[Deleted]

You clearly dont understand what's the difference between a "hybrid class" and "hybrid specs"... so I'm not gonna be bothered with your rant!

Classes give you acess to specs. Specs define your role. You don't play 2 specs at the same time, you play one. Classes are an irrelevant measure. If you look at the damage logs, theres specs, not classes.

It's ok for you not to bother cause it's clear you have trouble moving on from vanilla and tbc in terms of class changes.

When theres a spec whose point is to bring utility at the cost of damage, do let us know. That spec doesn't currently exist. Pure dps is a thing of the past. It just means you have a higher chance that one of 3 specs will be in a good place and it makes for easy swapping.

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No, ret doesn't need a buff. What it needs is a talent redesign.

Be realistic. A redesign can only happen in the next .5 patch or next expansion. We need a buff until then.

[killwithpwr]

You clearly dont understand what's the difference between a "hybrid class" and "hybrid specs"... so I'm not gonna be bothered with your rant!

Hybrid isnt a thing anymore.
Yes im a paladin, but i chose to play ret because i love the spec and i want to be a damage dealer, and none of the other damage dealing specs appeal to me.

I might be able to play as a Tank or a Healer.... But i dont want to, because Ret is a DD....

A Mage or Rogue are unable to change into a Tank spec... Yes, true enough... But... And this is a big BUT... Thats their choice, there wont be a point in time when you tell a hunter "Well, SV, BM, and MM are all crap - time to roll a Blood DK" or something... Besides the point, At this moment, it is so easy to reroll its kinda sad. Theres the 100 boost, lvling is easier than ever and faster when you have a main and gearing up is something i would have to do to my other specs any ways, so ita not much different.

Now, we as Ret can obviously re roll faster than pure dd classes, but they as dd pure class, can re roll a dps spec faster than us. And theres allways a great spec for them to fall on whereas our is not allways that great.

So, as any 4 yo would undersatnd, "Ret should stay behind because they have other specs to fall back to" is just an assinine thing to say. Each spec is and should be designed without ever thinking about the other specs that class can be.

[Morally Grey Storm]

When theres a spec whose point is to bring utility at the cost of damage, do let us know..

Warlocks and portals/gates/healthstones/soulstones
Priests and hymn/mass dispel/absorbs/heals
Hunters with misdirect/BL
Warriors and Commanding shout
Mages with Timewarp
Durids with BattleRes
DKs with BAttleRes
Shamen with self-res and BL

Do they suffer a dps penalty for b ringing a little bit of utility?

[EternalBany]

just give up already
i play this game since vanilla, blizzard hates paladins

[ThePants999]

Don't put too much stock into sims. Our ret in the guild is actually always middle to lower top of the charts. Always depends on the fights of course.

Don't put too much stock into your single data point. There are collected logs from thousands of raiding guilds that say ret is currently among the worst DPS specs.

[Ulthane]

Don't put too much stock into your single data point. There are collected logs from thousands of raiding guilds that say ret is currently among the worst DPS specs.

^This, so what you are saying is your ret is beating higher dps specs. Sounds like he is a bar that others must be on top of <.<

[Mercane]

Greater Blessing of Wisdom will get me through these dark times.

[tss]

Don't put too much stock into sims. Our ret in the guild is actually always middle to lower top of the charts. Always depends on the fights of course.

Half your raid dying and inflating his DPS doesn't mean shit. Go look at parses. Notice anything? They generally match sims! Wow!

[Thundering]

Well buffs would be nice.