Is PVP in WoW really on the decline?

[decsis]

PVP has been gradually going down the shitter since they introduced that rated crap. What the majority of the players want to do, is join solo and enjoy PVP without the need of sitting behind the PC with a headset. I've seen statistics that mentioned that even during arenas primetime not even 1/10th of the whole PVP community played rated.

And yet they decided to focus and balance everything around arena! And that's where the problem lies.

You cannot balance a game on 3vs3 and expect it to be working in 1vs1, 10vs10, 15vs15. This just doesn't work. Balancing a game around 3vs3 it exponentially harder than balancing around 1vs1.

Every esports game I know is balanced around 1vs1, because if 1vs1 is balanced, 3vs3, 2vs2, 5vs5 etc. are automatically also pretty much balanced while the opposite thing definitely isn't true. Look at blade & soul for example .That's what I call esports. That doesn't mean that every of the 10 classes must be present by 10% in the ladder! Some classes are still harder to play than others, but at least every class has the potential to get ranked 1.

[Krusza]

RBGs are a complete no go in their current state.

IF. IF. IF they change them A LOT and they suddenly become interesting (a tall order). Then maybe RBGs can work as a spectator sport (oh, dear, I think I am going to vomit again...). But I wouldn't hold my breath.

RBGs are much worse than even arenas. That "oh, right, I understand what is going on in RBGs better than I understand what is going on in arenas" bit is not going to save anything. OK, fine, you understand what is going on in RBGs. You understand that these guys are having a 10-minute stalemate with AOE and fruitless attempts to break things from both sides which are boring after the first two minutes. Because they are fruitless. But at least you understand what is going on, right? Have fun watching this shit.

When you use hyperbole like that, sure it sounds boring. That's like me saying "arena is just people running around a pillar throwing spells at each other"

League of legends is just "people killing minions and poking each other"

CS:GO is "just people shooting each other"

And no, it's not just about understanding what's going on. It just works MUCH better from a spectator's point of view compared to arena.

[Illana]

PVP has been gradually going down the shitter since they introduced that rated crap. What the majority of the players want to do, is join solo and enjoy PVP without the need of sitting behind the PC with a headset. I've seen statistics that mentioned that even during arenas primetime not even 1/10th of the whole PVP community played rated.

And yet they decided to focus and balance everything around arena! And that's where the problem lies.

You cannot balance a game on 3vs3 and expect it to be working in 1vs1, 10vs10, 15vs15. This just doesn't work. Balancing a game around 3vs3 it exponentially harder than balancing around 1vs1.

Every esports game I know is balanced around 1vs1, because if 1vs1 is balanced, 3vs3, 2vs2, 5vs5 etc. are automatically also pretty much balanced while the opposite thing definitely isn't true. Look at blade & soul for example .That's what I call esports. That doesn't mean that every of the 10 classes must be present by 10% in the ladder! Some classes are still harder to play than others, but at least every class has the potential to get ranked 1.

You know league is balanced around 5v5?

[decsis]

You know league is balanced around 5v5?

I have to say I don't know LoL. Does it only have 5vs5 or also 1vs1, 10vs10, 15vs15 and are they balanced? And does it have so many classes as WoW?

[Ohmega]

Honestly, the participation numbers are on the decline simply because of RNG loot. If they were to provide quality, reliably-garnered gear from PvP, the participation would return.

Humans like rewards; even further, they like rewards they can predict reliably.

[jackofwind]

I have to say I don't know LoL. Does it only have 5vs5 or also 1vs1, 10vs10, 15vs15 and are they balanced? And does it have so many classes as WoW?

League has over 130 champions (classes). As of right now (in ranked/draft mode) each player in the game gets to ban a champion at selection, so if there are no overlaps and no one abstains you're looking at ~120 possible different champions in any game. In blind pick (unranked) there are no bans, so all ~130 champions are possible choices.

League has 3v3 and 5v5 game modes, plus other "fun" modes with goofy modifiers. 3v3 and 5v5 have ranked and unranked.

3v3 is completely unbalanced and no one really gives a shit about it, though ti can be a fun game mode for in-house matches when you don't have 10 people.

All champion balancing is done for 5v5.

[Jinxz]

Here are the ACTUAL reasons why rated PvP is im decline:
- Pruned abilities ( some classes/specs lost a few skills that defined them in PvP, most agree Legion arena is a PvE dps race.)
- Severe lack of healers (Healing in legion is the most unfun of any expansion, melee has too much uptime and some have ranged interrupts, too many instant stuns that act as pseudo interrupts, making a single mistake as a healer, most of the time means the game is lost)
- No rewards under 2k, only a green enchant and glad/R1 titles after 2k (this makes casuals not want to try as there is no incentive to push for rating)
- Templates (while they are a good thing for balance, it deters people from doing arena to earn their weekly gear like in previous expansions through conquest)
- Honor talent grind (some classes require high honor level to even function in PvP, this also discourages people from playing alts)
- Artifact Power (people feel locked to one spec. This isn't an issue anymore, but the damage has been done and people that quit PvP aren't coming back)
- Diablo 3 grind (PvPrs don't like the legion grind, at least I don't and many of my friends.)

[Ohmega]

League has over 130 champions (classes). As of right now (in ranked/draft mode) each player in the game gets to ban a champion at selection, so if there are no overlaps and no one abstains you're looking at ~120 possible different champions in any game. In blind pick (unranked) there are no bans, so all ~130 champions are possible choices.

League has 3v3 and 5v5 game modes, plus other "fun" modes with goofy modifiers. 3v3 and 5v5 have ranked and unranked.

3v3 is completely unbalanced and no one really gives a shit about it, though ti can be a fun game mode for in-house matches when you don't have 10 people.

All champion balancing is done for 5v5.

If WoW were as streamlined as LoL, people would complain even more about how "easy" it is. WoW is currently in a solid state from a PvP perspective in terms of skill-celing vs. class design. The thing that is missing is a reliable, goal-related gearing system in PvP. That is really it.

- - - Updated - - -

Here are the ACTUAL reasons why rated PvP is im decline:
- No rewards under 2k, only a green enchant and glad/R1 titles after 2k (this makes casuals not want to try as there is no incentive to push for rating)
- Templates (while they are a good thing for balance, it deters people from doing arena to earn their weekly gear like in previous expansions through conquest)
- Honor talent grind (some classes require high honor level to even function in PvP, this also discourages people from playing alts)
- Artifact Power (people feel locked to one spec. This isn't an issue anymore, but the damage has been done and people that quit PvP aren't coming back)
- Diablo 3 grind (PvPrs don't like the legion grind, at least I don't and many of my friends.)

Agreed, apart from the templates portion. Outside of the high-level "min-maxers", the template system ought to make PvP more accessible to larger numbers.

[Illana]

Here are some of the things I dislike about Legion PvP (this is going to cover a broad range of venues)

• Why are you not allowed to change between healer and dps while in the waiting area in random bgs? This is so dumb my brain hurts
• Removal of pvp gear. The one thing I hate about the pvp templates is that it shoehorns you into one way of playing a spec. With pvp gear there was some variety and you could play to different strengths of the spec
• skill floor and ceiling are too close together. Before the game allowed you to pull off some really amazing things due to knowledge or just plain skill. Now it's almost impossible to 1v2 even two very unskilled players
• Still too much CC, when will blizzard understand not every class needs 3 different CCs each all on different DRs, on a secondary note: we're back to wotlk mage where they have roots on different DRs.
• Along the same vein: why does every melee have like 3 gap closers? It's almost impossible to maintain any distance for any decent length of time and that's coming from a hunter main: king of kite.
• burst is utterly stupid right now, we're back to the levels of cata where you could die in a charge stun from 100% hp (if charge stun still existed)
• slightly contrary to the above but: healers have so much built in damage reduction now they are stupidly hard to kill. This shifts the power to healers way too far and there should be some reshuffling here. Less damage less healing

[Caolela]

Agreed, apart from the templates portion. Outside of the high-level "min-maxers", the template system ought to make PvP more accessible to larger numbers.

No, templates also stink for many that have played PvP for some time, regardless if they're high-lvl or not though Legion does pander to the no-lifer top 20% or so of players. That's one of the main reasons Blizz did it, to keep those players no matter what b/c many of them are whales and streamers and Blizz loves them. $$$

It's supposed to be a MMORPG, not a goddamned MOBA or FPS with set stats. That means people want to gear up their way and change things from time to time. In WoD, I had different gear for my Aff spec and gear for Destro. If I wanted more or less of a secondary stat, I could play either spec that way - instantly. Same for my shamans, warrs, monks, priests, mage, DK... Also didn't have to be assed with too much worst-stat stacking like Legion "RNG" does Vers now, for example. I had several weapons to pick from. Except for a couple 'must haves' I didn't feel pigeonholed into certain Talents, and there were Glyphs.

Everyone on my B-tag that have quit (and it was a lot), said templates and/or RNG, more pruning, the dumb grind - were the reasons they left. I told some of them during WoD it's the reason I wasn't buying Legion and it was going to kill PvP but they said, "oh I'll see how it goes". Now they feel like suckers.

That's the real world. IDGAF what Blizzard Lies & Hype Dept.™ says.

[RelaZ]

Here are the ACTUAL reasons why rated PvP is im decline:
- Pruned abilities ( some classes/specs lost a few skills that defined them in PvP, most agree Legion arena is a PvE dps race.)
- Severe lack of healers (Healing in legion is the most unfun of any expansion, melee has too much uptime and some have ranged interrupts, too many instant stuns that act as pseudo interrupts, making a single mistake as a healer, most of the time means the game is lost)
- No rewards under 2k, only a green enchant and glad/R1 titles after 2k (this makes casuals not want to try as there is no incentive to push for rating)
- Templates (while they are a good thing for balance, it deters people from doing arena to earn their weekly gear like in previous expansions through conquest)
- Honor talent grind (some classes require high honor level to even function in PvP, this also discourages people from playing alts)
- Artifact Power (people feel locked to one spec. This isn't an issue anymore, but the damage has been done and people that quit PvP aren't coming back)
- Diablo 3 grind (PvPrs don't like the legion grind, at least I don't and many of my friends.)

This.

In addition to that:

- Some classes PvE rotation are completely fucked up and are not enjoyable in PvP (AoE damage on half your spells, Bloodtalons for Ferals etc).
- Artifact Power, again. This situation we have now where max AK / good Artifact Level is achieved almost instantly is only temporary. In 7.3 there will almost guaranteed be more AK it will be back to grinding again - and if you're not playing, well then you have to wait until 7.3.5 for the catchup mechanic. And even if there isn't more AK coming those with a lot of traits will have an almost uncatchable headstart compared to newcomers. Basically this means that PvP people will not bother to start up in the middle of patches and will only do so at the very start of a patch, before they fall behind too much. This obviously means less players will be playing.

[Holofernes]

where do u play to get instant pop bg oO I'm on Draenor EU as horde and it's anywhere between 3min to 15min depending on time of day

as Eu-Alliance i never ever have waiting time. (but i loose like 70 % of random bgs) on horde i can have 15-20 minutes, but win like 9 in 10. On most random bgs i join as alliance i am the only guy that ever gets one or two kills. Yep alliance is that bad. Actually its better to log from my 920 multi duellant human warrior to a random lowbob char on horde, wait 20 minutes and have some fun.

if u would neutrally watch stats after bgs, i perform better as ilvl 830 frostmage with no 3rd relic than a full mythic geared warrior with 12 years main warrior pvp xperience

Now u can see why most people turn their back on wow pvp. It has become a total mess.

[Kagthul]

You know league is balanced around 5v5?

you know League is a MOBA and not an MMO?

- - - Updated - - -

I have to say I don't know LoL. Does it only have 5vs5 or also 1vs1, 10vs10, 15vs15 and are they balanced? And does it have so many classes as WoW?

Over 100 champions. That are all effectively different classes.

Only 5v5 is competitive. There is a 3v3 map, that almost no one plays, and an alternate game type (Dominion) that NO ONE plays, and ARAM (All-Random, All-Mid).... which is the most popular game mode by a mile. (and that says something right there...)

Id point out, though, that Legaue is a MOBA and not an MMO.

They are entirely different. "PvP game" is not a genre. Shooters are a genre. MMORPGs are a genre. MMOFPS is a genre. MOBAs are a genre. RTS is a genre.

You fight other players in all of these, but by and large, the similarities end right there. Anything else is like comparing bricks to apples to cyanide.

[Sithalos]

Can't really decline if it was never popular to begin with.

[Spiffums]

Could be because PvP in WoW is just a side thing compared to the amount of time and attention given to PvE.

[Kagthul]

Can't really decline if it was never popular to begin with.

Except it was. Massively more popular than end-game PvE ever was.

Back when you could track who participated in each season, almost 50% (one season it was 49%, but most it hovered around 47%) of players got the 25,000 Conquest achievement every season.
Something like 65% got the 25,000 Honor achievement. Every season.

In contrast, before LFR, less than 10% ever got the raiding achievements while they were current.

MOST people used to do (casual!) PvE as their end-game of choice. WAY more than do or did PvE.

It's a lot harder to track now (basically, the prestige achievements are about all we have left) but the number of people getting those above prestige 1 is absurdly small compared to previous participation.

[Kagthul]

Don't bother what other people are saying. In WoW case, it's especially hatred towards the game at which they can't get good at because game is wide known and popular. Not sure why that matters but that's how things show so far. So yeah, people play PvP and they do often.

The numbers dont back you up on that.

People used to PvP quite often.

Given the dismal number of people who have even hit Prestige 1, much less higher levels of prestige...

PvP participation, even casual, is way, way down

[Dizzeeyooo]

I like turtles. That's what I have to say about that.

with that sort of attitude, blizzard would probably like to hire you as the new wow pvp developer

[Osmeric]

Unrated PVP seems to be doing fine (participation wise).

How did you reach that conclusion? The rewards from unrated PvP were greatly nerfed compared to previous expansions.

[Utigarde]

World PvP's pretty dead. On Moon Guard, we haven't been able to have stable server wide RP-PvP campaigns since Mists.