7.3 Feral Rework - Can we expect something similar?

[zTrikky]

well as of now frost is receiving a rework so i can now safely say i think we are going to get one soon

[Morally Grey Storm]

well as of now frost is receiving a rework so i can now safely say i think we are going to get one soon

What makes you think so?
Is there any kind of indication Retribution is next in line?
Any indication at all? I'll take even wishful thinking as an answer.

[Deleted]

Retribution rework mid-expansion: Look at our t21 set bonuyses and understand how much time they gonna spend for the specc.
But if they decide to go down the road of rework the specc is so hard-dp-facialized this expac that they wouldn't be able to handle the rework and would come down with a worse atrocity . The only reason for them to rework it would be to hit something with their nerf bat once again.

[Eon Drache]

They could give us Crusade baseline and put something else in its place that fits their 3-5% matra and we'd still be "Ok".

[Deleted]

If they make crusade baseline we are in deep shit. I just want my good old fashioned wings . Crusade can remain a talent for those farm nights where everyone chants logs are love logs are life

[Ohdee]

I actually despise base wings. In earlier expansions where AW gave us HoW (as well as having Zealotry/Guardian of the Ancient kings) to make the gameplay feel special during our burst was another story. But current baseline AW is incredibly boring, nothing changes except the numbers are a bit bigger. How anyone who thinks baseline AW and a base damage increase is the answer to a successful rework is crazy, ret would be the most boring spec since BC times unless major, expansion style changes are made to our entire toolkit.

The haste that Crusade gives (especially with Bloodlust) is so much less binary. Obviously current Crusade and it's raw power causes us too many problems, but I believe in order for a Ret rework to not be terrible they would need to replace it with something that's actually interesting (doesn't have to be a major 2 minute cooldown either) to switch things up from the playstyle Legion ret has outside of Crusade (which is currently incredibly dull). They could also just remove some of the raw damage portion of it and double down on the haste aspect, with buffs to TV or something similar.

[Ohdee]

I actually despise base wings. In earlier expansions where AW gave us HoW (as well as having Zealotry/Guardian of the Ancient kings) to make the gameplay feel special during our burst was another story. But current baseline AW is incredibly boring, nothing changes except the numbers are a bit bigger. How anyone thinks baseline AW and a base damage increase is the answer to a successful rework is crazy to me - ret would be the most boring spec since BC times unless major, expansion style changes are made to our entire toolkit.

The haste that Crusade gives (especially with Bloodlust) is so much less binary. Obviously current Crusade and it's raw power causes us too many problems, but I believe in order for a Ret rework to not be terrible they would need to replace it with something that's actually interesting (doesn't have to be a major 2 minute cooldown either) to switch things up from the playstyle Legion ret has outside of Crusade (which is currently incredibly dull). They could also just remove some of the raw damage portion of it and double down on the haste aspect, with buffs to TV or something similar.

[Ohdee]

I actually despise base wings. In earlier expansions where AW gave us HoW (as well as having Zealotry/Guardian of the Ancient kings) to make the gameplay feel special during our burst was another story. But current baseline AW is incredibly boring, nothing changes except the numbers are a bit bigger. How anyone thinks baseline AW and a base damage increase is the answer to a successful rework is crazy to me - ret would be the most boring spec since BC times unless major changes are made to our toolkit.

The haste that Crusade gives (especially with Bloodlust) is so much less binary. Obviously current Crusade and it's raw power causes us too many problems, but I believe in order for a Ret rework to not be terrible they would need to replace it with something that's actually interesting (doesn't have to be a major 2 minute cooldown either) to switch things up from the playstyle Legion ret has outside of Crusade (which is currently incredibly dull). They could also just remove some of the raw damage portion of it and double down on the haste aspect, with buffs to TV or something similar.

[Temna]

I agree with not baselining Crusade, don't think it worth it. Only move on crusade I think other then removal (which is an expac level amount of work) would be to normalize its duration and retool the Wrath of the Ashbringer trait into something else.

[Isolyphic]

With T20-4pc, and two non-haste trinkets while at +31.5% haste. Retribution feels absolutely nice to play.

In regards to Crusade, my expectations are:


Crusade will now stack to 20. With a Base Damage increase of 10% and gains 1% Haste and Damage per holy power spent.
Holy Wrath(100) is replaced by Justicar's Vengeance(75)
Justicar's Vegeance(75) is replaced by Judgment of Light (90)
Judgment of Light(90) is replaced by Holy Wrath(100)

Justicar's Vengeance now replaces Templar's Verdict when selected.
Justicar's Vengeance now costs 3-5 Holy Power, dealing more damage per Holy Power spent.
With retribution's ability kit being completely reliant on availability of abilities not on cooldown. Sometimes however Retribution Paladins may have too many abilities off cooldown when Holy Power is already pooled. Justicar's Vengeance is now effected by Echo of the Highlord
Divine Purpose proc chance increased to 22% to bring it in line with the new Crusade and Justicar's Vengeance

[Eurytos]

The problem is judgement. And our mastery makes it worse. But the biggest culprit is judgement. They aren't changing that mid expac. I think the best we can hope for is bandaid fixes. Number tuning. But the play style isn't changing mid expac. Which sucks, because thats the biggest problem.

When I think of game play changes they made for ret, they have gotten it right several times before this. The two biggest play style changes being the way seals and judgment used to work, and then later the addition of holy power. Inquisition was a medium sized change, while not the worst, just didn't work out so they went away from it. This colossus smash-finisher bullshit isn't working, and they gotta either come up with something new, which I'd rather them not, I think there is plenty to pull from in the history of ret, or they pull from ret's history as I think is good enough.

I think it's obvious they will move away from it. It just sucks right now. And until 8.0 pre-patch comes I'm sure it will continue to suck, with only bandaid fixes and number tuning. And if they don't change ret, then I guess I gotta go back to main tanking to have fun with paladin. Play some other class for my melee fun. I'm so depressed with ret right now, goddamn this sucks.

[Hulabaloon]

Inquisition and Judgment are basically the same thing. "Stop what you're doing and push this button every x seconds so you can continue doing max damage."

Except, Inquisition felt worse because you had to dump holy power to do it.

[Reith]

Inquisition and Judgment are basically the same thing. "Stop what you're doing and push this button every x seconds so you can continue doing max damage."

Except, Inquisition felt worse because you had to dump holy power to do it.

Not really. I'd take 30 second Inquisition over baby colossus smash. At least I could judge distant targets again without my DPS being raped. And switching targets wouldn't require me to have Judgment up.

[Krothare]

In what world is target swapping a problem ever since Judge Unworthy was made a thing?

[Kelemar]

Crusade baseline would be terrible for PvP. While I personally dislike PvP greatly, I don't think it's correct to load the burden onto PvPers.

Judge Unworthy is a bandaid for what has basically not worked for the entire expansion. Judgment limits your target swapping and AoE capabilities enormously, Judge Unworthy fixed that to a degree. I'd even say that it's basically back to Hand of Light mastery but more tedious.

I really hope the Judgment debuff mechanic gets scrapped for the next expansion. I've yet to encounter a Ret who likes this playstyle (I know, anectodal etc...)

[Eurytos]

The Judgement mechanic is just inconsequential. When the devs design away a class feature instead of designing around it, it's a tacit admission of failure. Judge Unworthy is essentially an admission that the mechanic is pointless. As I've said elsewhere, Blizzard HAS changed a mastery during an expansion before (Icicles during MoP) they could really just scrap Judgment as a mechanic as well.

To be clear, you mean the debuff and its interaction with finishers, not the spell itself, right?

[Helsinki]

To be clear, you mean the debuff and its interaction with finishers, not the spell itself, right?

I wouldn't be the same if I couldn't judge people and make critics.
I don't think he meant the spell itself

[Gracin]

Okay, assume they take away the CS funtion of judging. Then what do they do with judgement? now you have a random ranged spell with no synergy with ANYTHING we're doing. I'm not saying CS is good for our spec, but maybe figure out a decent solution before gutting what little we have.

[Reith]

Okay, assume they take away the CS funtion of judging. Then what do they do with judgement? now you have a random ranged spell with no synergy with ANYTHING we're doing. I'm not saying CS is good for our spec, but maybe figure out a decent solution before gutting what little we have.

One word: seals.

[Reith]

Seals are nice. I mean we still have Boros or Maraad (whichever he was) from the TBC cinematic casting a Seal, it's THAT iconic. Same to have lost them.

Thete made a good point in one if his videos that the only class to charge in a cinematic was Tyrion, a paladin, but it's somehow a warrior ability? I think the art team likes paladins a lot more than the class design team does.

A constant theme among multiple talent trees is that you have one spec for ST and one for cleave/AoE and you just switch between the two of them (or get punished for forgeting/not having a tome) instead of choosing a playstyle. Seals could be used to provide such a switch for us if they work like stances. Or alternatively they could have been made the main mechanic of the spec and be converted to cooldowns.

What made Ret what it was, was its versatility in combat. It wasn't necessarily the king of anything except maybe bursting down priority targets. Its versatility made up for it not being "the best" at most things. Ret has lost a lot of its versatility, and as a result, its identity.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh Frost Mages need more attention, guys. They're not doing well enough, right? ARE YOU KIDDING ME