How Legion iLvls should've been to avoid insane power creep

[Echo of Soul]

In this scenario titanforging doesn't exist but warforging +5 does. Mythic+ awards a static iLvl increase the higher you go up to the cap of current content heroic iLvls.

[Kaosadvokit]

Imagine the shit-show this would have caused in place of the shit-show that is currently going on though.

If it was set up like this from day 1, t19 would be vastly better option, or an easier to attain option due to current titanforging, than t20 for some classes... even after the nerf.

Turns EN / NH trinkets that are very good/have an awesome proc into the only option again.

I'm talking in absolutes, but still. It would cause the game to turn into even more of a grindfest than it currently is. Because then you'd feel like you need to clear EN/NH/ToV every single week for the chance at that one trinket. Because instead of it having to titanforge 50 iLvl. All of a sudden you're only needing it to titanforge 10 iLvl (or whatever the case may be).

If you paired a system like this, with a capped titanforging system, such as it only being able to go up 10-15 iLvl max, and making it more rare. Then it would have probably been amazing.

[Deleted]

Mythic dungeons and M+ are far too rewarding in the model.

(Current)Mythic raids are far too unrewarding(not counting tier bonuses) because items will not be stat optimized. Ultimately the issue was(and remains) titanforging

[cparle87]

Not sure if it's my ad blocker or something else, but the OP is blank to me.

[GutsAP]

Who gives a shit if people do more damage and have a high ilevel?

[dexx]

Perhaps if the change due to ilvl itself wasnt so extreme? ie; someone in 920 shouldnt be doing several times the DPS of someone in 850.

[Jastall]

Faceroll heroics giving same loot as a Normal raid? Mythic dungeons rewarding the same loot as Heroic EN? Mythic +5 rewarding, what, same loot as Mythic ToV? The reward structure is even more borked than on live, and TF would make this a living nightmare, not to forget T19 sets and trinkets would have to be drastically nerfed since the ilvl difference would be so small.

Power creep doesn't matter so long as the opposition follows suit. Shattering the reward structure just to solve a theoretical problem is absolutely not worth it.

[Svisalith]

Perhaps if the change due to ilvl itself wasnt so extreme? ie; someone in 920 shouldnt be doing several times the DPS of someone in 850.

Making ilvl half as rewarding but giving +60 of them is no different from having it at the current value and giving +30; same end result. If you don't want throughput to increase by literally 5x between the entry to Tier 1 and the exit of Tier 2 then don't increase the stats by that much either way.

Power creep doesn't matter so long as the opposition follows suit.

That unfortunately only holds true in a small portion of content deemed "currently relevant" and when you disregard gear scaling week to week. If you step outside of that content or you change gear then it immediately becomes an important part of game design again

[Temp name]

So you're saying you want heroic dungeons to give loot equal to normal raids? And mythic dungeons equal to heroic raids? Now, I'm not saying heroic EN was hard, but come the fuck on man, mythic dungeons were so much easier.

I do agree though that gear scaling is fucking ridiculous this expansion, we went from 880 being mythic EN to 875/880 being NORMAL NH within a single tier.. And now again from 905 being mythic NH to 900 being normal ToS. It's stupid. Ideally we should be at ~900 in heroic/mythic ToS gear

[Deleted]

why did you start at 825 and not 800?

[cparle87]

1. Content is nerfed into irrelevance way too fast.

Well, Blizzard tried countering that somewhat with the mob scaling thing. I think they specifically mentioned back in MoP how at the end of SoO players could walk into the Dread Wastes, pull an entire nest of mantid, and kill them in two blows.

And players hit the roof screaming about how Blizz was nullifying all their hard work, all the 'what's the point of gearing up if mobs are going to scale' and all that other crazy rage they did.

This isn't a problem with an easy fix.

[Leih]

Exponential power increases between tiers is done deliberately to avoid other problems, though. If you don't have big enough ilvl gaps between tiers, newer content doesn't seem as rewarding or exciting and older content remains relevant or even required for much too longer for the way the game is currently designed. This is especially true in a world with Warforging.

Having the ilvl scaling be more dramatic also allows a lot more breathing room when it comes to difficulty tuning. They can make the higher end harder and they have more space to fit in the curve through everything else, because the upgrading of gear slowly makes things easier across the game. When you take that away, they will have to go back to things like the ICC 5% every few weeks scaling buff or something like that in order to be able to tune the way they do now.

It causes problems with multiple difficulty levels too. When the differences between all brackets is fixed to 10 ilvls there's no incentive to do any of the other difficulties... which might sound fine to those in a hardcore Mythic-only guild but there are LOTS of guilds who work through one difficulty first, gear up, and move to the next one. Lower difficulties than what you've been doing are completely irrelevant with this setup which feels pretty bad when you're forced to do them anyway to learn the content, but now there's no scope for reward.

[Hctaz]

why did you start at 825 and not 800?

Because the game starts you out here now: Normal mode dungeons give 825s now.

[Svisalith]

I think they specifically mentioned back in MoP how at the end of SoO players could walk into the Dread Wastes, pull an entire nest of mantid, and kill them in two blows.

In WOD you could ding max level and then turn around and oneshot the leveling mob next to you with an instant cast crit, it didn't even take dungeon let alone 3 tiers of raid gear to do.

[Hctaz]

So you're saying you want heroic dungeons to give loot equal to normal raids? And mythic dungeons equal to heroic raids? Now, I'm not saying heroic EN was hard, but come the fuck on man, mythic dungeons were so much easier.

I do agree though that gear scaling is fucking ridiculous this expansion, we went from 880 being mythic EN to 875/880 being NORMAL NH within a single tier.. And now again from 905 being mythic NH to 900 being normal ToS. It's stupid. Ideally we should be at ~900 in heroic/mythic ToS gear

This is reflecting the changes Blizzard made to dungeons. Remember they boosted normal up to 825 from 800. Subtract 25 item levels from dungeons and you get what they would have been at the start of the expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Who gives a shit if people do more damage and have a high ilevel?

Blizzard obviously does. The reason they implemented mob's health scaling slightly with your item level is because they didn't want the outdoor content to become irrelevant so quickly. If I went back to Vanilla 7.0 with my current gear I would shit on everything around me simply by breathing and we still have another raid tier to go. Like holy shit there's a problem here.

- - - Updated - - -

In this scenario titanforging doesn't exist but warforging +5 does. Mythic+ awards a static iLvl increase the higher you go up to the cap of current content heroic iLvls.

You should clarify that this is a reflection of what dungeon loot is now. People are giving you shit for the fact that your mythic dungeon gear is so OP compared to raids but they don't realize that this is not representing vanilla 7.0 when normal dungeons gave out item level 800 gear and not 825.

Edit: JK you edited it.

[Deleted]

Because the game starts you out here now: Normal mode dungeons give 825s now.

no when you are done leveling you typically are 780-800 ilvl, that is where you start off. easy 15-25 extra ilvls you can shave off the curve there.

[Hctaz]

no when you are done leveling you typically are 780-800 ilvl, that is where you start off. easy 15-25 extra ilvls you can shave off the curve there.

No like... normal dungeons currently give you 825 gear as opposed to the gear item level that they did before they buffed it. That's what I'm saying.

7.0 they gave lower item level gear. OP was basing his graph off of the currently increased gear.

[Deleted]

I like how older content being relevant is seen as a bad thing by some. The magic of raid design in TBC and vanilla was that all the raids still felt "alive" and had some raiding community whether it was people new to the game or hardcore raiders. Karazhan was the most active raid even when BT was out. Expansions felt like more of a sandbox and open world. There was something magical about striving for that next harder raid, whereas now guilds are striving towards slightly adjusted numbers and mechanics for the same bosses. And then a few months later they are given a new hamster wheel on Blizzard's schedule. In fact it's a trend across the game in general that Blizzard nanny players and tell them how and what they should be doing. I don't know why players are ok with this.

[Marston]

As others have pointed out, this is no easy problem to fix.

If you don't have powerlevel jumps between tiers, it seems like the difficulty will never truly go down (we actually had that in Nighthold Mythic) and lower tiers are still relevant, so it could happen your BiS item for the whole expansion is in the first tier, so you basically have to run that each week additionally to whatever raid is current.

If you do have power gaps between tiers, older content becomes extremely obsolete fast. To give an example, Wannoob, a player who solos content, just uploaded a video last week where he solos Nythendra normal. That's a boss from basically 1 1/2 tiers ago of the current expansion, and it's now soloable. To add to that, he doesn't even have full mythic items yet and the current expansion still has at least 1 tier to come. So imagine how much content of the current expansion some people will be able to solo by the end of Legion.

There is just no easy solution for this. Do you make the jumps between tiers smaller? Do you remove difficulties, so you don't need as many itemlevels? If you do that, you still need powerlevel jumps between tiers though (also, which difficulty to remove if any is a discussion on it's own). Or maybe there is a completely different solution, but which one is that?

[Ophenia]

Just remove those awful Titanforged/Warforged bullshit and we won't be jumping 80 ilvl per tier