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  1. #61
    I also think that WoD iteration of ret was the best one. I get the idea behind removing some buffs and seals as they were "cast and forget" but I would rather want them to be reworked. Also I genuinely believe that current ret is just waiting for its turn to some massive redesign, like rogues or shadow priests.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogplus View Post
    I also think that WoD iteration of ret was the best one. I get the idea behind removing some buffs and seals as they were "cast and forget" but I would rather want them to be reworked. Also I genuinely believe that current ret is just waiting for its turn to some massive redesign, like rogues or shadow priests.
    Just reminding people, the WoD iteration of ret is the one without the HFC tier bonus or the HFC trinkets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    5) Most Seals. Contrary to what some people like, having an ST seal and an AOE seal wasn't fun gameplay. It was super binary and uninteresting. It also runs into the same issue where having a ton of utility built into these gives Ret's a bit too much which makes it mandatory or useless.
    I am returning to this post to disagree with this. I would far rather have the element that differentiates my AoE from my ST rotation be a base class element like a Seal than to have 2-3 talent tiers devoted to that entirely binary choice.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Just reminding people, the WoD iteration of ret is the one without the HFC tier bonus or the HFC trinkets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am returning to this post to disagree with this. I would far rather have the element that differentiates my AoE from my ST rotation be a base class element like a Seal than to have 2-3 talent tiers devoted to that entirely binary choice.
    what they did with prot shouldnt be a problem for us to use, as warriors all have whirlwind and/or thunderclap w/ some sort of cleaving mechanic mixed in to use for aoe. If a distinction needs to be made as to how prot and ret use consecration; fine, but prot using it as bread and butter (for increased healing and defense) vs consecration as a requirement to activate aoe dps wouldnt be that despairing a similarity.

    The seals comment is exactly why i dont think any iteration of old seals should be implemented back into the game; it needs to go back to the drawing board and rebuilt from scratch (if at all). If they can somehow make an interesting conversion of Crusader law spells that wouldnt undermine the MMO group game play fine, but seals being binary and directly tied to aoe vs single target dps was the problem to begin with; it made all other seals useless.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebhil View Post
    Any old iterations of blessings, seals, auras or spells like exorcism and hammer of wrath should never return. I know everyone is nostalgic about them, but if they for example focus on making judgement or execution sentence visually and mechanically impactful, a return of hammer of wrath would be redundant. I don't think we should encourage redundancy or "filling" our spell bars.
    Seals worked really well in MoP, actually. I even thought they did back then. You had to have a ton of skill to fully optimize DPS on a council fight, but you didn't HAVE to go that far if you didn't want to. Blade of Wrath should have Exorcism's range.

  5. #65
    Legion ret sucks the big one. Colossus smash mechanic needs to go. Judgement needs to be our hardest hitter. Seal of command needs to return. Exorcism and art of war was also a feast for the eyes.

  6. #66
    @ Reith art of war baseline and a range boost to blade of wrath seem like good places to start in respect to "quality of life" changes; so long as players cant effectively snipe targets at range continuously and blade of wrath doesnt get nerfed to compensate (pvp concern i know, but i think a limit to that kind of power is in order).

    the binary switching of seals and the half-assed seal of truth glyph wasn't that fun, ergo effective. As you say it was optimal dps but players ignored it sometimes and that seems to be a bigger problem than whether or not it "works"

    one thing i noticed considerably while leveling in legion was dps on anything outside the judgement window was horrendous. Judgement needs a revamp > having it be a key part of the rotation is fine but mimic of colossal smash isnt it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am returning to this post to disagree with this. I would far rather have the element that differentiates my AoE from my ST rotation be a base class element like a Seal than to have 2-3 talent tiers devoted to that entirely binary choice.
    That's completely fine and I actually agree with that stipulation 100%, but it doesn't change the fact that Seals still were not fun in that iteration, even if they were effective, which was the core point of my post.

    Tell me how you would make seals both FUN and effective.

    My idea I once posited was that Seals were off GCD medium cooldown presses that immediately did an effect based on a condition, and offered a passive bonus.

    For instance, in my Ret Legion build (way back in Legion beta) I had a mechanic that had Ret's Mastery place a stacking DoT that when activating Seals 'popped' the stacks dealing damage and offered an effect (i.e.resource restoration, reduced CD on AW, etc.). Thematically the idea was that you were rending your enemies bodies with Light, and you would reclaim it when you needed it (by using a Seal) and pulling that Light out of your enemies dealt damage and boosted your power since you were "whole" again i.e. one with the Light again.

  8. #68
    I just want my damn hybridiness back! I want offensive, defensive and utility abilitys which consume holy power. you've to choose on what to spend your resources; a powerful instant heal, a massive strike or maybe a movement speed boost? If you spend HP on heals you'll be a great off-healer, if you instead spend it on damage you'll then be a great damage dealer. You can't do both at the same time though! I want to throw heals, buff people, slay foes and tank. Sure, every "pure" tank or healer would out do ret but damage wise it would be on pair with "pure" dps. Point is, when you heal, you won't do damage and consume your stored HP.

    This could mean a broader rework, ofcourse, like a new resource system where damage stores healing power which the first HP consuming heal, well, consumes for increase healing meaning you can still heal if you've no "healingbuff-resource" but it would be for much less. OR something along those lines...

    I miss my instant, no cooldown Word of Glory
    Well met!

  9. #69
    i really like 2 designs: WOTLK and WOD.
    in wod we have the option to run with ranged templars veredict or seal dancing that only need an improve to be amazing and completely class identity.
    Hammer of salt

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That's completely fine and I actually agree with that stipulation 100%, but it doesn't change the fact that Seals still were not fun in that iteration, even if they were effective, which was the core point of my post.

    Tell me how you would make seals both FUN and effective.

    My idea I once posited was that Seals were off GCD medium cooldown presses that immediately did an effect based on a condition, and offered a passive bonus.

    For instance, in my Ret Legion build (way back in Legion beta) I had a mechanic that had Ret's Mastery place a stacking DoT that when activating Seals 'popped' the stacks dealing damage and offered an effect (i.e.resource restoration, reduced CD on AW, etc.). Thematically the idea was that you were rending your enemies bodies with Light, and you would reclaim it when you needed it (by using a Seal) and pulling that Light out of your enemies dealt damage and boosted your power since you were "whole" again i.e. one with the Light again.
    I did, in page two, since the thread talked about how people would design ret and not how they would just complain. Reposting it I guess, but it's massive:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Retribution Paladin Redesign

    Abilities

    Retribution Aura (Passive)
    Protects yourself and all party or raid members within 60 yards with an aura that deals Holy damage when attacked.
    Note: This should be a tiny amount of damage and mainly there to proc other effects.

    Boundless Conviction (Passive)
    You may store an additional 2 Holy Power beyond the maximum of 3. Your Holy Power spenders reduce the cooldown of your Seals by 1 sec per Holy Power spent.

    Seal of Truth
    Instant, 1m recharge
    2 Charges
    Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing single-target attacks to Censure the target, which deals additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Censure can stack up to 5 times. Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 0% weapon damage as additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 10sec.
    Unleashing this Seal's energy ends the Seal’s duration and deals Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Censure on the target.
    Shares charges with other Seals

    Seal of Command
    Instant, 1m recharge
    2 Charges
    Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing single-target attacks to have a chance to deal additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 10s.
    Unleashing this Seal's energy ends the Seal’s duration and deals Holy damage to the target and all other nearby enemies.
    Shares charges with other Seals

    Judgment
    30 yd range
    Instant, 10 sec recharge
    Judges the target dealing Holy damage and unleashing any active Seal.

    Crusader Strike
    Melee range
    Instant 4,5 sec recharge
    2 Charges
    Strike the target for Physical Damage
    Generates 1 Holy Power

    Exorcism
    40 yd range
    Instant, 12 sec recharge
    Deals Holy damage and extends the duration of active Seals by 3 sec. Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Exorcism
    Generates 1 Holy Power

    Templar’s Verdict
    3 Holy Power, Melee Range
    Instant
    A powerful weapon strike that deals Holy damage.

    Consecration
    3 Holy Power
    Instant, 45s cooldown
    Consecrate the land beneath you for 12 sec. When Retribution Aura deals damage to an enemy within the area, all enemies within the area take Holy damage.

    Divine Storm
    3 Holy Power
    Instant
    Unleashes a whirl of divine energy, dealing Holy damage to nearby enemies. For each enemy hit that is affected by Consecration, extends the duration of Consecration by 0,5 sec.

    Avenging Wrath
    Instant, 2m recharge
    Increases all damage done by 35% and all healing done by 35% for 20 sec. Unleashing a Seal during Avenging Wrath does not end its effect.

    Mastery: Divine Judgment
    Increases Judgment damage and increases the effect of unleashing a Seal

    Talents

    Level 30: Generators/Spenders Tier

    Blade of Justice (Replaces Exorcism)
    12yd range
    Instant, 12 sec cooldown
    Strikes an enemy with the Blade of Justice dealing physical damage extending the duration of active Seals by 3 sec and by an additional 2 sec on critical strikes. Blade of Justice has an additional 15% chance to deal a critical strike.
    Generates 2 Holy Power

    Execution Sentence
    3 Holy Power, 20 yd range
    Instant, 1m cooldown
    A hammer slowly falls from the sky, dealing Holy damage after 7 sec and unleashing any active Seal.
    Execution Sentence is affected by Divine Judgment as if you had 50% more Mastery.

    Zeal (Replaces Crusader Strike)
    Melee range
    Instant 4,5 sec recharge
    2 Charges
    Strike the target for Physical Damage
    Grants Zeal, causing Zeal attacks to chain to an additional nearby target per stack. Maximum 3 stacks. Each jump deals 40% less damage.
    Generates 1 Holy Power
    Note: Zeal attacks also cause Censure from Seal of Truth or have a chance to cause additional attacks from Seal of Command.

    Level 45: Retribution Aura Tier

    Retributive Strikes
    Critical Strikes with Retribution Aura have a chance to generate 1 Holy Power but no more often than once every 5 seconds.

    Avenge
    When a party or raid member within your Retribution Aura falls below 35% health, reduces the cooldown of Avenging Wrath by X seconds. This effect cannot occur more often than once every 30 sec.


    Vengeful Aura
    Enemies that take damage from Retribution Aura take increased damage taken from your Holy Power spenders for 3 seconds.

    Level 60: Seals Tier

    Divine Purpose
    Your Judgment has a 20% chance per second remaining on the Seal unleashed to make your next Holy Power spending ability deal double damage and free.

    Holy Focus
    You may have multiple Seals active at any time.

    Unending Judgement
    Judgment can be used a second time within 3 sec before its cooldown is triggered. If used on a different target it unleashes any Seal that was active within the last 5 sec at 50% effect.

    Level 100: Avenging Wrath Tier

    Wings of Liberty
    Your Avenging Wrath now has 3 charges

    Crusade (Replaces Avenging Wrath)
    Increases damage and haste by 2.5% for 20 sec.
    Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage and haste by an additional 2.5% and extends all active Seals by 1 sec.
    Maximum 20 stacks.

    Hammer of Reckoning
    30 yd Range
    Instant, 1m Cooldown
    When your Retribution Aura deals damage, you gain Reckoning.
    Consume 50 stacks of Reckoning to hurl a magical hammer that strikes an enemy for (700% of Spell power) Holy damage, and you gain Avenging Wrath for X seconds.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I did, in page two, since the thread talked about how people would design ret and not how they would just complain. Reposting it I guess, but it's massive:
    Seal of Truth
    Instant, 1m recharge
    2 Charges
    Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing single-target attacks to Censure the target, which deals additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Censure can stack up to 5 times. Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 0% weapon damage as additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 10sec.
    Unleashing this Seal's energy ends the Seal’s duration and deals Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Censure on the target.
    Shares charges with other Seals

    Seal of Command
    Instant, 1m recharge
    2 Charges
    Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing single-target attacks to have a chance to deal additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 10s.
    Unleashing this Seal's energy ends the Seal’s duration and deals Holy damage to the target and all other nearby enemies.
    Shares charges with other Seals
    So I read this and I see 2 seals (I'm ok with the quantity, I don't buy into needing a half dozen versatile seals, too powerful).

    Something about Seal of Truth annoys me (more than the nightmares of the ramp up/target switching shit we had back in WotLK). You are rewarded for 5 stacks, but you're encouraged to dump them for the bonus Judgment damage. That to me "feels" awkward in my head. If you removed the % WD proc on 5 stacks, you'd fix that, but then the payoff seems lackluster. You could put a %WD proc off unleashing it, but even still then it's still just passive damage and not terribly interesting.

    So Seal of Command is only based of ST attacks and does AOE based on strictly judging? That's not terrible, but does sound kind of awkward. Shouldn't it just cleave baseline if the goal is an AOE themed baseline Seal? It's also kind of boring. It's a tough thing to balance "excitement/engagement" without overloading a kit, but I can't help but feel it's missing something.

    Maybe if when unleashed if the target is affected by Consecration it boosts Consecrations damage/range/duration? This way you REALLY hone in the AOE aspect of it?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    So I read this and I see 2 seals (I'm ok with the quantity, I don't buy into needing a half dozen versatile seals, too powerful).

    Something about Seal of Truth annoys me (more than the nightmares of the ramp up/target switching shit we had back in WotLK). You are rewarded for 5 stacks, but you're encouraged to dump them for the bonus Judgment damage. That to me "feels" awkward in my head. If you removed the % WD proc on 5 stacks, you'd fix that, but then the payoff seems lackluster. You could put a %WD proc off unleashing it, but even still then it's still just passive damage and not terribly interesting.

    So Seal of Command is only based of ST attacks and does AOE based on strictly judging? That's not terrible, but does sound kind of awkward. Shouldn't it just cleave baseline if the goal is an AOE themed baseline Seal? It's also kind of boring. It's a tough thing to balance "excitement/engagement" without overloading a kit, but I can't help but feel it's missing something.

    Maybe if when unleashed if the target is affected by Consecration it boosts Consecrations damage/range/duration? This way you REALLY hone in the AOE aspect of it?
    Well the idea is that you will want to judge at the very last global unless you are playing DP when you'd want to judge with 6-5 seconds remaining or a heavy mastery built and ES.
    Tbh I was considering a Seal of the Zealous that gave you the effect of Zeal instead of the randomness of Command; as it is Zeal makes both Seals work for cleave (but I'd expect it would still be better with Seal of Truth). Honestly I could see Zeal becoming a separate, third seal so Command was mostly used with Holy Focus or for world content/adds that don't last long. I'd have several changes in mind but noone was interested
    Anyway my focus was on trying to actually create a gameplay that ties into the class fantasy of Retribution; have the aura fuel you with resources and procs while having talent options that favor all encounter styles. Plus it was a very slow weekend when I was stuck inside

  13. #73
    I think current iteration can work well with some adjustements and applying common sense. For example:

    -The Fires of Justice: Crusader Strike now deals Fire damage. Also when it crits, it applies a DoT doing 30% of the initial damage during 10 secs, improved by the Judgmenet debuff and with option to crit.

    -Greater Judgement: Your crits on enemies with Judgement debuff can extend the debuff duration one second, or give you one HoPo.

    -Virtue's Blade: In addition to current effect, BoJ now deals Holy damage for example.

    -Justicar's Vengeance: Your Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm heals you 30% dmg you have done with them.

    -Holy Wrath eliminated. In its place, Hammer of Wrath: Judgement's cooldown is reduced, and its damage is improved 50/60% when the enemy is below 30% health and during Avenging Wrath.

    The first three ideas skyrocket the value of crit but they're just hypothetical.
    They're a few ideas I thought in 5 minutes. Pretty sure Blizzard, with months of planning and a lot of heads thinking, can do things better.
    Last edited by Anardel; 2017-08-09 at 12:26 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    step 1) remove holy combo points,
    step 2) go back to a LK model
    step 3) have fun
    I would instantly reroll if they brought back ICC Ret !

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Anardel View Post
    -Holy Wrath eliminated. In its place, Hammer of Wrath: Judgement's cooldown is reduced, and its damage is improved 50/60% when the enemy is below 30% health and during Avenging Wrath.
    Something along the lines of reduces the cooldown of judgment by 4 seconds and for every 1.5% health your target has lost, your judgement gains 1% increased damage. While wings is active your judgement deals damage as if they have 10% health unless the target has less than 10% health. Judgement would become stronger and stronger as the fight progresses, and if the damage was comparable to crusade I'd totally take it. Sustained DPS outside of wings, and baseline judgement debuff=judgment CD at 0% haste would make mastery and timing judgement a lot less frustrating.
    Last edited by tuesday the paladin; 2017-08-17 at 03:25 AM.

  16. #76
    i would love to get my hammer back, and art of war with exc, some ranged stuff.
    i also loved the animation of the holy power finished in WOD, the one from talents i think, it was so amazing

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Just reminding people, the WoD iteration of ret is the one without the HFC tier bonus or the HFC trinkets.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I am returning to this post to disagree with this. I would far rather have the element that differentiates my AoE from my ST rotation be a base class element like a Seal than to have 2-3 talent tiers devoted to that entirely binary choice.
    +++++
    People need to recall how retribution shined in hfc largely due to the allignment of stars that came from hfc tier, class trinket and dps ring and the synergy/timing that allowed for a sick ES explosion every now and then... (i mean come on had to study the encounter to watch the timing, when to stop casting --- around 6 secs before sera been ready so every generator was of cd --- and then try to squize everything during seraphim) Only really good thing i have to recall from that expansion pve wise was a neat mobility and a strong damage reduction cd for the raidteam that could be enhanced by a talent. Other than that ret would be top average and usually not favorable for timed instances and progression

    Having said that one can only reflect at how bad the situation is now since people recall wod times as good times.
    "Are you sexually harassing me right now? Because if you are, I think I’m gonna have to report you. For giving me a serious boner."
    -Hank Moody

  18. #78
    Every class in wow has an almost instant gap closer:

    Warrior (charge/leap)
    Rogue (shadowstep)
    DK (grip)
    DH (2 charges)
    Monk (roll, teleport)
    Druid (displacer or whatever)

    And paladin has to waste 2 globals on steed + freedom. They should make steed have a built-in freedom because it's garbage in PVP. It would also greatly improve the feel of the class because paladin is currently so GCD-locked.
    Last edited by RussW210; 2017-08-18 at 12:35 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by RussW210 View Post
    Every class in wow has an almost instant gap closer:

    Warrior (charge/leap)
    Rogue (shadowstep)
    DK (grip)
    DH (2 charges)
    Monk (roll, teleport)
    Druid (displacer or whatever)

    And paladin has to waste 2 globals on steed + freedom. They should make steed have a built-in freedom because it's garbage in PVP. It would also greatly improve the feel of the class because paladin is currently so GCD-locked.
    I felt pretty sad that my level 31 warrior tank got 2 charges and 1 leap ability - and my 110 Paladin got one horse 'sprint' ability. ;_:

    If they insist that paladins shouldn't have a gap closer, they seriously should give them a baseline Pursuit of justice for increased movement.

  20. #80
    Stood in the Fire JaoStar's Avatar
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    I think they did take too much off the top with Ret. the spec really doesn't shine until you get your three artifact traits. Definitely needs more light spells, not so much that you feel disconnected from the target but maybe ones that work in conjunction with weapon strikes. Retribution paladins have two bland weapon strikes, one that does dmg and another that does more dmg.

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