Let's talk Light Brewing vs Black Ox Brew

[ReD-EyeD]

I remember people talking about some haste breakpoint around 33% where LB become better than BOB, but that was pre ISB duration nerf and pre High Tolerance haste buff.

Does anyone have any math about that, considering Light Brewing value should have gone up in the latest patch?

[keqe]

If BoB only gave energy I'd still probably use it.

[ReD-EyeD]

If BoB only gave energy I'd still probably use it.

But LB actually IS better than BOB with 30%+ haste. This is also considering vacuum sterile (meaning: very rarely) usage of BOB.

[Deleted]

I currently don't consider LB. If I run BoC, I want to have BoB for the energy. If I run High Tolerance, I'd want have the other talent to make more use of the 4pc.

[ReD-EyeD]

I currently don't consider LB. If I run BoC, I want to have BoB for the energy. If I run High Tolerance, I'd want have the other talent to make more use of the 4pc.

I'm still not buying that energy thing, but I'm running RJW that covers every ~5th gcd and unless you have like 3 face palm relics (which is almost impossible with TOS having none) then importance of energy is weak defensive and offensive.

[Deleted]

I'm running LB all the time and find it much smoother then BoB (6/9 Mythic down).
Sure you need BoB for BoC-DPS, but during Progression i'm running HT b/c i really like it to keep ISB UP without any problems and have much Brews for purifying.
(Well...And my co-Tank is a Def-Wall Blood DK, so i can't do much DMG . . .But hey, it's okay, i really don't care about Tank DPS as long as the Enrage isn't a problem)

[ReD-EyeD]

I'm running LB all the time and find it much smoother then BoB (6/9 Mythic down).
Sure you need BoB for BoC-DPS, but during Progression i'm running HT b/c i really like it to keep ISB UP without any problems and have much Brews for purifying.
(Well...And my co-Tank is a Def-Wall Blood DK, so i can't do much DMG . . .But hey, it's okay, i really don't care about Tank DPS as long as the Enrage isn't a problem)

Same here. And BOB is not even a dps increase at all (unless you're screwing keg smash energy reservation).

[Deleted]

I'm still not buying that energy thing, but I'm running RJW that covers every ~5th gcd and unless you have like 3 face palm relics (which is almost impossible with TOS having none) then importance of energy is weak defensive and offensive.

You really shouldn't use it that often. I mean if you only refresh it in pandemic it turns out to be every 7th gcd around about.

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Same here. And BOB is not even a dps increase at all (unless you're screwing keg smash energy reservation).

Why wouldn't it be? Having more energy gives you more TP, more brews give you nothing dps wise.

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I'm running LB all the time and find it much smoother then BoB (6/9 Mythic down).
Sure you need BoB for BoC-DPS, but during Progression i'm running HT b/c i really like it to keep ISB UP without any problems and have much Brews for purifying.
(Well...And my co-Tank is a Def-Wall Blood DK, so i can't do much DMG . . .But hey, it's okay, i really don't care about Tank DPS as long as the Enrage isn't a problem)

Wouldn't Gift of the Mists be a better fit for a HT build? With the 4pc getting a lot of orbs should do most of the purifying you need. Just personal preference on your part or what makes you prefer LB?

[ReD-EyeD]

You really shouldn't use it that often. I mean if you only refresh it in pandemic it turns out to be every 7th gcd around about.

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Why wouldn't it be? Having more energy gives you more TP, more brews give you nothing dps wise.

1) With 7 second duration it's pretty normal to refresh it with 2 seconds left for pandemic. More to it I'm not energy capped nor energy starved while doing this and following basic rotation of keg/bof/bos.
The only thing that would differ this is legendary chest, but I don't have it anyway.

2) Yes, of course, excess energy gives you more TP, but as I said already unless you have a good amount of face palm relics the difference is pretty negligible.

Also, wanted to point out that I'm talking about a progression runs where you take HT over Combo, defensive trinkets and not fapping at tank dps charts.

Wouldn't Gift of the Mists be a better fit for a HT build? With the 4pc getting a lot of orbs should do most of the purifying you need. Just personal preference on your part or what makes you prefer LB?

The problem with Gift of the Mists is that the gathering thingy is on global cooldown. Most of the time orbs getting wasted when you chug them whole. I would say this talent would be good for consistent high damage and I can't name any bosses for that. Well, okay, Harjatan, but who actually cares about Harjatan anyway.
And 4pc is not even that good to build around it. 10 orbs (which is not a small amount) is not even giving you amount of 1 full purify.

[keqe]

At any haste below 60% you use the same amount of energy between keg smash casts compared to what you generate. And that is with all empowered tiger palms. And that amount you use is more than you generate.

Let's use common build as example, 14.3% haste and RJW. You use 2x tiger palms and keg smash in 7 second rotation. That is 90 energy in 7 seconds while you only regenerate 11.43 energy per second, giving you 80 energy.

Thus every 7 seconds you lose 10 energy and thus will go below 40 energy in 42 seconds and you will no longer be able to use your abilities optimally. And you will stay behind.

Even with 33.4% haste you generate 80 energy in that 6 second window and use 90 energy resulting in the same situation.

[ReD-EyeD]

Thus every 7 seconds you lose 10 energy and thus will go below 40 energy in 42 seconds and you will no longer be able to use your abilities optimally. And you will stay behind.

Seems harsh. Especially if you fight Patchwerk with 1 ms connection.

[Deleted]

1) With 7 second duration it's pretty normal to refresh it with 2 seconds left for pandemic. More to it I'm not energy capped nor energy starved while doing this and following basic rotation of keg/bof/bos.
The only thing that would differ this is legendary chest, but I don't have it anyway.

Yeah, but then the duration is 9.5 sec and you shouldn't use it for the next 7 seconds or more.

2) Yes, of course, excess energy gives you more TP, but as I said already unless you have a good amount of face palm relics the difference is pretty negligible.

Also, wanted to point out that I'm talking about a progression runs where you take HT over Combo, defensive trinkets and not fapping at tank dps charts.

Still on progression there are a few bosses were you want to run with a more dps oriented setup. That has nothing to do with "fapping at dps charts" but rather with the fact that damage kills bosses and defensives stop helping after you have enough. For example I wouldn't run HT on Sisters, because there is no need for that and providing more damage actually makes the fight easier.

The problem with Gift of the Mists is that the gathering thingy is on global cooldown. Most of the time orbs getting wasted when you chug them whole. I would say this talent would be good for consistent high damage and I can't name any bosses for that. Well, okay, Harjatan, but who actually cares about Harjatan anyway.
And 4pc is not even that good to build around it. 10 orbs (which is not a small amount) is not even giving you amount of 1 full purify.

You can also just move over them. I know this isn't possible always but most of the time you can just walk a step to the left and get half of the orbs. Costs no energy, no gcd and you can make sure to not waste enormous amounts.

[ReD-EyeD]

Yeah, but then the duration is 9.5 sec and you shouldn't use it for the next 7 seconds or more.

Of course I'm not using it exactly every 5 seconds.

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Still on progression there are a few bosses were you want to run with a more dps oriented setup. That has nothing to do with "fapping at dps charts" but rather with the fact that damage kills bosses and defensives stop helping after you have enough. For example I wouldn't run HT on Sisters, because there is no need for that and providing more damage actually makes the fight easier.

Well, I guess I haven't met such bosses yet or I don't really care about them being already overgeared. I would rather make healer's work easier.

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You can also just move over them. I know this isn't possible always but most of the time you can just walk a step to the left and get half of the orbs. Costs no energy, no gcd and you can make sure to not waste enormous amounts.

Pretty sure even the toppest of kekest players aren't doing stuff like that consistently.

[Saverem]

I remember people talking about some haste breakpoint around 33% where LB become better than BOB, but that was pre ISB duration nerf and pre High Tolerance haste buff.

Does anyone have any math about that, considering Light Brewing value should have gone up in the latest patch?

Alls I know is, I only use BoB.

[keqe]

Seems harsh. Especially if you fight Patchwerk with 1 ms connection.

Well happens on Harjatan, Sisters, Desolate (if not on cheese duty), Mistress, Avatar.

This game has lag tolerance. Set it higher and you can use your globals with 1 ms accuracy.

[Deleted]

Well, I guess I haven't met such bosses yet or I don't really care about them being already overgeared. I would rather make healer's work easier.

You know, if you just don't care about dps, that is your prerogative. In ToS so far that actually seems kind of fine, since there don't seem to be to many bosses that have a really tight enrage. The point that BoB is a dps gain over LB is still valid and something a lot of players like to consider when choosing talents that have hardly any difference in value defensively.

[keqe]

Well, I guess I haven't met such bosses yet or I don't really care about them being already overgeared. I would rather make healer's work easier.

On a boss like sisters killing it 5 seconds faster helps your healers more than HT would. The boss does no tank damage while p3 is race to the end in terms of keeping raid alive.

[ReD-EyeD]

You know, if you just don't care about dps, that is your prerogative. In ToS so far that actually seems kind of fine, since there don't seem to be to many bosses that have a really tight enrage. The point that BoB is a dps gain over LB is still valid and something a lot of players like to consider when choosing talents that have hardly any difference in value defensively.

That's kinda a part of my question above. I would love to see exact numbers of that dps gain.

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On a boss like sisters killing it 5 seconds faster helps your healers more than HT would. The boss does no tank damage while p3 is race to the end in terms of keeping raid alive.

Yes, BoB over LB will give you enough dps to kill boss a whole 5 seconds earlier, seriously? You need much bigger increase to cut 5 seconds of a fight with overall ~13 mil raid dps.

[Deleted]

Don't have much to say about raiding, so far LB has felt better for me but it might be cause i'm trash.

However on mythic+ having the wrist legendary and special delivery this week with LB has been a blast.

[Swalload]

Having 30% haste is a nerf in itself, so this entire situation is less than optimal. Get good stats instead of 5 milion haste and use BoB, what's the problem?