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  1. #21
    Epic! Uoyredrum's Avatar
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    If you enjoy it for the sake of it I guess (I don't think most people do anymore). Every other reason has basically been killed off (gear, participation is terrible, etc.).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverlife View Post
    Why did you play previously? If it's fun, then play it. Luckily Legion fixed most of the issues in PvP, no longer does gear matter, classes are finally pretty balanced. It's a good time to PvP if you enjoy it.
    Was that a /sarcasm message? Cause you know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sSX9GqBYvM

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohmega View Post
    Legion does nearly everything right from a PvP perspective. The gearing system just needs reworked to provide clear-cut, straight-line-type goals to satisfy our primitive minds.
    Yup. That's why the number of PVPers reduced harder than the number of subs in WoD. Because Legion does nearly everything right.

    Hint: it does nearly everything WRONG. Yes, for real. I am not saying it in jest. Nearly all changes in Legion for PVP have been WRONG.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    In Burning Crusade resto druid was mandatory in 2v2, and everybody hails that as the golden age of pvp.
    Except nobody does. Most people see MoP as the best expansion when it comes to PvP. TBC was an imbalanced shitfest.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Yup. That's why the number of PVPers reduced harder than the number of subs in WoD. Because Legion does nearly everything right.

    Hint: it does nearly everything WRONG. Yes, for real. I am not saying it in jest. Nearly all changes in Legion for PVP have been WRONG.
    Nah. Participation numbers are likely down because of the gearing system. Spec and class wise, it is a fairly even playing field in PvP from a viability standpoint. Are there standouts? Of course, but not nearly to the extent usually present in WoW or other games for that matter.

    Humans don't like RNG in this context. RNG works really well for micro-transactions or for rewards garnered with little effort. Plugging hours into PvP to maybe get the piece of gear you need just does not work well with the human mind because of how we value our time with respect to desired outputs. They seem to be coming to this understanding with the "obliterate" idea, though.

    (Hire me Blizz, I can fix this for you rather easily.)
    Last edited by Ohmega; 2017-07-19 at 06:43 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Except nobody does. Most people see MoP as the best expansion when it comes to PvP. TBC was an imbalanced shitfest.
    Literally never heard anyone before you say MoP was good for pvp. It's always BC or cata.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohmega View Post
    People act like FoTM classes didn't exist before Legion. Literally every competitive game with "classes" or "champions" goes through this ebb and flow type distribution.

    Legion does nearly everything right from a PvP perspective. The gearing system just needs reworked to provide clear-cut, straight-line-type goals to satisfy our primitive minds.
    Exactly this.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Literally never heard anyone before you say MoP was good for pvp. It's always BC or cata.
    Maybe you should start talking to actual PvP players then.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    my major issue with the thread title is the "anymore".

    It never had a point. The creation of rated PvP started the long decline PvP has been on.



    Provably false. With math. Gear matters more than it did in the past. Welcome to the Great Big Lie.



    ... hmm, 17 posts. Nothing of merit said... troll? Troll.
    How has rated games put wow pvp in decline? do explain.

    and 2,700 posts. Nothing of merit said...thats just tragic.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Maybe you should start talking to actual PvP players then.
    Nice no-true-scotsman there.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Nice no-true-scotsman there.
    Nice "I've read some shit on wikipedia" there.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Nice "I've read some shit on wikipedia" there.
    This is the real world, not a pvp game. Every other person isn't an enemy you should attack.

    If you think that's from wikipedia than I guess have fun when you get to 9th grade?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Except nobody does. Most people see MoP as the best expansion when it comes to PvP. TBC was an imbalanced shitfest.
    Yeah.. no.

    MoP was a shitbag. TBC was.... meh. It introduced the concept that balance should be built around deathmatch in a box and that wasn't good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lykaboss View Post
    How has rated games put wow pvp in decline? do explain.

    and 2,700 posts. Nothing of merit said...thats just tragic.
    compared to your 38 posts and nothing of merit said?

    Youve literally been proven utterly wrong on every statement you've made.

    Enjoy ignore.

    You contribute nothing.

    Things ive done though?

    Proven the "gear doesn't matter" myth to be an outright lie via math.
    Proven the ladder collapse with math and hard data. (and correctly predicted months ahead of time).
    Proven the massive PvP decline with math and hard data. And correctly predicted it months ahead of time.
    Proven the massive failure of templates, why they dont work, and how they will never work. (With math).
    Proven the massive failure of the initial AP system and how it negatively impacted PvP in a massive way that proved the "you can just jump right into PvP in Legion" was a lie for the first 7 months. (With math).
    Proven that the Honor system, as originally intended, was a 2 1/2 month slog to get all your honor talents unlocked to even begin to PvP. With math. Notice how they changed it within a month of launch. Predicted ahead of time.

    Have the ability to look outside my own narrow zone of interest - which is fun group oriented PvP - and predicted how a lot of the changes will damage PvP as a whole for the entire community - those of us who view rated as cancerous shit and even those of you who like rated.

    Things you've done:

    Come into a thread and said "Blizzard is great" or "Nuh uh".

    Bye, junior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neverlife View Post
    You're right, we can use math to prove that gear matters less now then it ever has before.
    No, you can't, because 1+1 does not equal 3.

    Broke the whole thing down months ago.

    Gear matters precisely as much, or more, than it did before.

    You. Are. Wrong.

    That's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of basic addition and multiplication.

    If you believe otherwise, then you don't really know how the system works and where the multipliers and templates interact with each other and how (which is excusable, since Blizzard has done a shit job documenting).

    It's all been proven out in-game, too, dozens of times by equipping gear and reworking talents to verify the coefficients.

    Gear is just as important now as it ever was. Period. Moreso, actually.

    And no, not trolling, I genuinely believe that the classes are pretty well balanced at the moment. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to remember the shit storm that's been the previous expansions.
    Ive been playing since the original beta son. You were what, 10?

    The class balance right now is a fucking joke. One-stun instagibs are not fun or balanced gameplay.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    have fun when you get to 9th grade?
    Nice ad hominem there.

    I don't really see what point you're trying to make here. Even if some PvP players (or even a majority of them) consider TBC to be the best expansion pvp wise this doesn't change the fact that PvP participation is incredibly low (even lower than during WoD despite Legion being more successful according to Blizzard). Queue times are incredibly high, rating cut offs suggest low rated participation, 5v5 was removed, finding RBG groups has never been more bothersome and complicated and I haven't seen a 40v40 BG in a very long time (seems far-fetched but I'm starting to think there's not enough players queuing for BGs).

    The easiest explanation for all these phenomena is that PvP is simply shit at the moment.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Because you want to?

    Legion has actually had me play more PvP than the last few expansions. Mostly due to the fact I don't need to constantly re-gear for PvP which is nice, People don't just need to outgear people ASAP and it feels pretty balanced which is nice as well.

    I think most people that complain are just shit players who have had to readjust to not being able to just win by outgearing people.
    nah the people who complain are actually the good ones. For the casual that has now idea about pvp, and would be nothing but a victim in former expansions, the current pvp system is good. (people like you). Why? because they get a ilvl 900 template and their artifact leveld without doing anything. So now u can play your facerol bm hunter, and win a 1vs1 against a gladiator warrior, because u can use "aspect of the turtle" and send your pet onto him. Thats what sucks at legion pvp.

    Skill doesnt make a significant difference, gear doesnt make any differance at all. Good people adjusted their pvp gear to the comp. i had gear for max throughput , gear for beeing trained, gear for max haste, gear for manareg as a heal shaman. All different stats, and i used them, and swapped according to comp and to opponents. This kind of stuff has been totally erased from the game, and the pvp talents are only a minor thing that resembles the system.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Dude, did you fall into a Morton vat of salt? You're salty as fuck. Probably because you're horribad at PvP. Generally someone who runs their mouth, demeans others, and claims they're "ahead of the game" is compensating for either a very low skill level, or a small man complex. You get picked on at school, baby back? Yeah? Lunch money stolen?

    Did you also know the day you were born was the day you started to die?

    Rated PvP didn't start a "long decline".
    Going from over 60% of people participating in PvP as their primary end-game activity to less than 15% isn't a massive, long decline? Huh. You should maybe go back to school.

    Unless you call emerging into eSports, national and international tournaments with grand prizes totalling in the millions,
    LOLWUT? Emerging into eSports? Literally NO ONE takes WoW seriously as an eSport. They can barely scrape together teams for their OWN EVENT at Blizzcon. HoTs and Overwatch get 50x the coverage of WoW as an eSport. WoW as an eSport has been a failure from day 1.

    and a huge surge of players coming to the game not only for the PvE fun, but also for the competitive aspect of PvP
    Yeah, huge surge. Which is why ladder participation is down almost 70%? Do you live in reverse-world, where when things are false, you believe them to be true?

    a "long decline". PvP has always had a point.
    Enlighten me with your "wisdom" then. What was the point of PvP before rated?

    It's called *gasp* fun.
    Oh, that tired, disproven, bullshit argument. When PvP provided meaningful progression, it had a healthy community. Now that we've gone what you idiots in the "Yurk yrk just PvP for funsies man you dont need rewards" crowd - no meaningful progression - PvP participation has declined SEVENTY FUCKING PERCENT since the last xpac, where it was already at an ALL TIME LOW. This is an MMO, not a Moba or a shooter. People play MMOs for progression. They play it for rewards. When PvP had healthy rewards, PvP was healthy. Now that PvP has no tangible rewards, its deader than shit. Weird.

    Some people find it frustrating, some people love it.
    Most people left it. That's the point you dont seem to grasp. The number of people left even playing is a miniscule fraction of what it used to be.

    There is no "great big lie,"
    Sure there is. Proven and catalogued, with links to blue posts and everything. We went over this all about four times now. Once during Alpha, once during Beta, once after launch, and again about 2 1/2 months ago. With math, links to blue posts, forum posts, in-game video showing how stuff actually works.

    Blizzard said the "new" PvP system was designed to do a number of things and address a number of things they felt were issues. Every one of those claims was disproven. Categorically. The threads are there, go read them. With links to proof and everything.

    unless the lie is that you know what you're talking about. Calling people "son" and "junior," haha. You're no doubt the most insecure MMO poster I've seen in months.
    Nothing to do with insecurity. Everything to do with utter contempt for the people in question. If i dislike you, im not going to treat you nice. You dont deserve it and arent entitled to it, kiddo.

    Clearly, nothing of merit or truth in your post. Just salt.
    Feel free to refute any of the previous threads. Go right ahead. Work on my end has all been done, multiple times. Lets see the blue posts, links to Armory statistics, participation metrics, rating cutoffs, how the templates work, all of it, that proves me wrong.

    Go ahead.

    We'll wait.

    Fuck, we've been waiting since the Alpha. No one's managed to do it yet.

    Why? Because we've been right the whole fucking time.

    But, hey, i mean your post full of ad-hominem without a single link to a single fact, single bit of supporting evidence, and attacking me instead of the argument..

    Yeah, you're a winner, kiddo.

    And in case you haven't guessed? I have nothing but contempt for you bullshit either. Kiddo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    nah the people who complain are actually the good ones. For the casual that has now idea about pvp, and would be nothing but a victim in former expansions, the current pvp system is good. (people like you). Why? because they get a ilvl 900 template and their artifact leveld without doing anything. So now u can play your facerol bm hunter, and win a 1vs1 against a gladiator warrior, because u can use "aspect of the turtle" and send your pet onto him. Thats what sucks at legion pvp.

    Skill doesnt make a significant difference, gear doesnt make any differance at all. Good people adjusted their pvp gear to the comp. i had gear for max throughput , gear for beeing trained, gear for max haste, gear for manareg as a heal shaman. All different stats, and i used them, and swapped according to comp and to opponents. This kind of stuff has been totally erased from the game, and the pvp talents are only a minor thing that resembles the system.
    Gear still makes a difference.

    Your TEMPLATE is set at iLevel 900, but gear scaling still begins at iLevel 800.

    If you're a gladiator-level player, this season 930-940 should be your average iLevel. That means you will have 13-14% flat stats advantage over someone who just dinged. And that's not taking anything else into account. (Stam can still differ as much as an ADDITIONAL 25% as well, among other things.)

    The reason you aren't encountering that as a fresh casual is because those guys aren't even bothering to queue for BGs anymore. Glad players have no reason to set foor into a BG, ever. Before it could supplement their CQ cap. Now its totally meaningless.
    Last edited by Kagthul; 2017-07-19 at 10:34 PM.

  16. #36
    You want WoW style PVP that's actually somewhat balanced, and has no gear farming barrier to entry, where your skill actually matters? Go play guildwars 2. Everyone has access to all the same equipment. It's all normalized. There's no farming. No gear disparity. There IS some class disparity, and meta with your team comp. That's always going to exist in any RPG-style pvp. But it's still the best and most fair MMORPG pvp I've seen to date.

    But as for whether or not there's a point to ranked PVP in wow? No, not really. Get your xmogs and your title if you really think it matters. Otherwise it's still the same dumpster fire that it's always been.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    LOL. PvP as a primary endgame activity? You lost me right there. Everything that follows you clearly pulled from your ass.
    ... if you mean "pulled straight from the Armor for 9 years in a row", sure. Again, go read the threads, provide some hard data to back up your claim, or shut the fuck up

    You're clearly biased for whatever reason. PvP is fun and was largely accepted by the competitive community up until Legion, where there is a marked decline because Holinka really screwed the pooch. You can keep raging at your keyboard about how your "work is done, blah blah blah, facts blah blah bullshit facts blah blah".

    Where are these links? Link them? Oh, that's right, it's all in your head.
    In a thread, right here on this forum, with my name as the poster. Four different threads from different times, actually. Since i re-did the work every time something major about the system changed. That you're too much of a lazy shit to take ten seconds to look them up is NOT MY PROBLEM.

    If you had links and you were humble in your knowledge of how things actually were, you'd post your data and let that speak for itself.
    I literally did. Go read it. Or not. I dont really care. You're wrong. Provably. Already proven.

    Instead, you make feeble attempts to mock people's post counts while simultaneously pretending you're some PvP sleuth. I'm not sure what's more pathetic.
    Your continued attempt at ad-hominem while providing NO counter-argument is awfully pathetic.

    I guess you're so blinded by your nerd rage that you forgot that video games and fun are subjective. What you obviously hate or can't do,
    More ad-hominem, no real argument

    other people are good at and enjoy.
    If they enjoyed it so much, it wouldn't have declined by over 70%.

    You can claim to be smart all you want, but until you admit that you're just one person that views things this way,
    I'd say im part of the majority of people that feel that way. You know, the ones that aren't participating anymore.

    I'm wasting my time.
    Well, you're certainly wasting MY time.

    You have no data,
    You mean, other than the other forum threads where this has already been gone over? Yeah, none.

    you have no links or decades of research dedicated to find this "great big lie". The fuck are you? Warcraft PvP Investigator? And you think we buy that? Go spit shine your badge, buddy.

    I know I'm a winner.
    At what? You've certainly won nothing here. You've made ad-hominem attacks, while accusing me of making them (lets be clear - im not.. im disproving their arguments with facts AND insulting them - on purpose, as a sign of contempt. You're just insulting me and NOT refuting my arguments.

    You're clearly a loser by the way you attack people to compensate. I'm just giving you a dose of your own medicine, calling you out on your great big lie of a post history. You literally make fun of people for their post count and you expect to be taken seriously? Suuuuure.
    No, i pointed out his post count in conjunction with statements he made that were obviously provocative to label him a troll.

    I'd pass the salt, but you clearly have a lifetime supply. Your contempt is so bold, it's impossible not to see it's a facade for an upset player incapable of properly PvPing.
    K. My contempt for you continues to grow, though.

    That's the only logical conclusion.
    Lets see that logic train played out. Go ahead, try it out.

    You are the weakest link. Goodbye.
    I accept your admission of being totally wrong and nothing more than an ad-hominem troll.

    Basically: put up or shut up, kiddo.

    I already did.

    The only person with anything to prove here is you. And what do i see? Nothing.

    Here's your argument in a nutshell:

    You - "You're a meanie and wrong!"

    Me - "Yes, im an asshole. Now prove how im wrong"

    You - "I cant, but you're a meanie, so you're wrong. Because. I said so!"

    That's the extent of it.

    10 seconds to search my name and find the threads. Not my job to do it for you. If you want to refute my arguments, lets see it. Lets see some facts to back up your (utterly baseless) claims.

    Otherwise? No one here will take you as anything other than what you are:

    A blind, foolish shill who cant stand to be told he's wrong.

    Bye, Kiddo.

  18. #38
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    In Burning Crusade resto druid was mandatory in 2v2, and everybody hails that as the golden age of pvp.
    Only in arenas, never bgs, and in S4 when resilience stacked up to high amounts.

    Most of the time rdruids died in a warlocks fear.

    TBC was the golden age of pvp by a landslide, no need to discuss it.

    BGs were brooming, arena just got invented as a brand new thing, gameplay was rewarded and pruning never happened.

    The best of all: DDs totally dominated the game until s4 when healers exploited high resi to ruin the fun, so at least 3/4 of TBCs pvp was great fun.

    So far 0% of legion pvp was fun or made any sense. The majority of people simply ignore it or laugh at it. Fact. Read the damn chat channels and compare pve activity with pvp activity. PvP was very active in TBC i was there i started with it no BS talk here! The huge pvp decline allready started with wotlk, when blizzard decided to make 2 largely unpopular new bgs with machines, participation dropped instantly compared to TBC and rightly so. Blizz did great inventions in TBC(arena) and wotlk brought 2 reduntant bgs, making classes more mediocre/equal, and hybrids more dominant at the launch of the game.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Rated PvP didn't start a "long decline". Unless you call emerging into eSports, national and international tournaments with grand prizes totalling in the millions, and a huge surge of players coming to the game not only for the PvE fun, but also for the competitive aspect of PvP a "long decline".
    Bwwwwwahahhhahahaaaa!

    Hahahahhhhahaaaa!

    Seriously, where do they get such folks from? They are just literally making shit up as they go.

    Hey, buddy, you there? Where the heck do you see grand prizes for WoW tournaments totaling in the millions? And huge surge of players coming? And... sorry, hahahahhha... OMG... hahaha...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    LOL. PvP as a primary endgame activity? You lost me right there. Everything that follows you clearly pulled from your ass.
    Yeah, right, you have no clue. PVP was one of the main endgame activities before they broke it. Go figure.

    Kagthul has way too much patience.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Seeing as you don't even understand "totalling in the millions" means over the course of every year there's been Arena Tournaments, I can only believe your comprehension skills are pretty low.
    Oh, so by "totalling in the millions" you meant the total number over multiple years from all tournaments?

    How many millions are we talking about exactly? Do you think this is big or what?

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