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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishan View Post
    I have to agree with Ganthar, MM does produce better numbers when pushed to full potential but for an average player BM could preform better.
    Personally I'm not one of the best players but I can play the BM stomp build at 95-98% potential, while i can only manage about 70-80% with MM.
    Add to that the movement, and BM does better DPS for me than MM.
    I am currently one of the top DPS in my little Heroic only guild and if I switch to MM i'm middle of the pack...
    So yeah it highly depends on the skill of the player since the MM skill cap is much higher than BM.
    alot of it is also due to gear... ive just started playing hunter main this tier.. 7/9M US 17th guild. Played boomkin for last 5 years went hunter because ive hated boomkins play style all EN/TOV/NH (even if they did become OP in TOS)

    Anyways I play BM main have almost full 99% logs for heroic and 80%+ for mythic (private logs though) Over last 2 weeks ive been practicing MM for Avatar/KJ and even though i find myself still fucking up alot MM does almost the same damage playing it bad at my 931 ilvl using ring+prydaz/gloves (dont have boots yet) as I do in BM.


    The biggest thing with MM vs BM is gear. at 910 ilvl BM and MM are within like 20k dps on sims... When you look at 930+ sims that gap grows to like 100k at 940 BIS Sims MM is like 160k ahead of BM.. BM does not scale well with gear so every piece of Mythic gear you get makes the ammount of mistakes you can make in MM and still be better than BM bigger...
    moshotsNew Main
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  2. #22
    It does depend somewhat on how good you are.
    MM is a lot more dependent on smart positioning since movement is so detrimental.

    So if you're really bad at managing that, BM might end up being better simply for the free movement.

  3. #23
    it is but if you cannot do the rotation correctly then its not worth it

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunterforlife View Post
    Stop, all bosses is meaningless.
    Look boss by boss, specs that skyrocket in multidot fights will always skew all bosses.

  5. #25
    BM is probably the better choice for high movement, single target encounters (so, final 3 bosses at least), whilst not being punishing for mistakes.

    MM has a far higher ceiling though.

  6. #26
    On experienced player MM pulls ahead on almost all fights.
    BM is better with less experienced players or fights with lots of movement.
    If u never played MM this expantion and u test it on 2 or 3 dungeons u will do shit damage, if u realy want to go MM u need practice a lot and then u will see the results.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by satori sartori View Post
    Stop, all bosses is meaningless.
    Look boss by boss, specs that skyrocket in multidot fights will always skew all bosses.
    I agree, the cumulative is skewed, but dps is dps. The mobs have to die, so being better at aoe is still an advantage. Also, looking boss by boss, BM is dead last on several encounters. Not a good place to be.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    It's not better, they both work for the job, MM does more dmg, but you have to be excellent at movement management.
    Yeah. If you're bad go BM. But assuming perfect play and equal gear then MM is best in Tomb. Also on Avatar now.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    BM is probably the better choice for high movement, single target encounters (so, final 3 bosses at least), whilst not being punishing for mistakes.
    Not really the case though. Check out the breakdown of specs on the last 3 bosses. *I used Heroic just because that includes more parses

    Maiden
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=2052
    There are 100% more BM parses, but MM is still performing better, despite all the movement.

    Avatar
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...4&class=Hunter
    Same as Maiden, 100% more BM parses, MM performing better, despite the movement.

    KJ
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...4&class=Hunter
    Once again, 100% more BM parses with MM still performing better.

    TL;DR: About 2x as many people are playing BM in TOS, but MM is performing about 10% better throughout the Raid (80%+ parses). This performance gap widens when you up the parses to 95%+, meaning that as players approach the skill cap for MM, the potential DPS increases noticeably.
    Last edited by Holovik; 2017-08-08 at 12:44 PM.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord Myz's Avatar
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    MM is the best spec, there's not much discussion needed on this topic because there's nothing more to discuss. MM beats BM on ST (which is the BM niche, together with priority damage) and blows BM away on cleave/AoE.
    There is no fight where BM is better than MM, and the only one that shows up as being somewhat close is probably Avatar where Stomp is cleaving on the Maiden half of the fight.

    That said, BM performs just fine and is easier to pick up and master so your mileage may vary. You won't hold your guild back by being BM. If you do, it either means that you're not performing at a high enough level or your guild as a whole needs to work on their performance/tactics.

    Excellent guilds are clearing ToS Mythic just fine with excellent BM players.

    I raid as BM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Holovik View Post
    Not really the case though. Check out the breakdown of specs on the last 3 bosses. *I used Heroic just because that includes more parses

    Maiden
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=2052
    There are 100% more BM parses, but MM is still performing better, despite all the movement.

    Avatar
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...4&class=Hunter
    Same as Maiden, 100% more BM parses, MM performing better, despite the movement.

    KJ
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...4&class=Hunter
    Once again, 100% more BM parses with MM still performing better.

    TL;DR: About 2x as many people are playing BM in TOS, but MM is performing about 10% better throughout the Raid (80%+ parses). This performance gap widens when you up the parses to 95%+, meaning that as players approach the skill cap for MM, the potential DPS increases noticeably.
    Well to be fair MM isn't a spec where ranking is always "doing better" when the difference in ring procs in the opener is the difference between spiking 2 mil and 3.5 mil in the opener... MM will always have the theoretical higher top end than BM...

    The biggest thing with BM is more consistent damage pull to pull.. should be interesting with the 4% BM buff on PTR (maybe live wtihin 2 weeks)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Myz View Post
    MM is the best spec, there's not much discussion needed on this topic because there's nothing more to discuss. MM beats BM on ST (which is the BM niche, together with priority damage) and blows BM away on cleave/AoE.
    There is no fight where BM is better than MM, and the only one that shows up as being somewhat close is probably Avatar where Stomp is cleaving on the Maiden half of the fight.

    That said, BM performs just fine and is easier to pick up and master so your mileage may vary. You won't hold your guild back by being BM. If you do, it either means that you're not performing at a high enough level or your guild as a whole needs to work on their performance/tactics.

    Excellent guilds are clearing ToS Mythic just fine with excellent BM players.

    I raid as BM.
    well there are factors to consider too... For example I'm pretty sure the reason method ran 3 BM hunters over 3 MM on first avatar is the target swap ability of BM far outweights MM in swap target damage when MM has a stack buff on hitting one target and that used to be a tight timer.
    moshotsNew Main
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshots View Post

    well there are factors to consider too... For example I'm pretty sure the reason method ran 3 BM hunters over 3 MM on first avatar is the target swap ability of BM far outweights MM in swap target damage when MM has a stack buff on hitting one target and that used to be a tight timer.
    No doubt. Having BW up for every protocol definitely is an advantage of BM. The stats I linked obviously don't account for stuff like that, just overall DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moshots View Post
    Well to be fair MM isn't a spec where ranking is always "doing better" when the difference in ring procs in the opener is the difference between spiking 2 mil and 3.5 mil in the opener... MM will always have the theoretical higher top end than BM...
    While this is true, on any given fight you will have 3 or 4 Trueshots. Obviously the one under lust is going to be the preferable window to get those good procs, but chances are you will get a good ring proc string in one of those TS windows. The first one will just spike really high because DPS spikes really high for a lot of classes on the pull. It will all still normalize over the duration of the fight. That being said, I'm sure a lot of those top parses are people with really good RNG on LnL procs.

  13. #33
    Actually, Survival played by a player with skill destroys MM and BM. I've been using it in LFR and it's completely obvious that "top level" players aren't aware of what this spec is capable of. Hunters are the king of melee.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Holovik View Post
    Not really the case though. Check out the breakdown of specs on the last 3 bosses. *I used Heroic just because that includes more parses

    Maiden
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=2052
    There are 100% more BM parses, but MM is still performing better, despite all the movement.

    Avatar
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...4&class=Hunter
    Same as Maiden, 100% more BM parses, MM performing better, despite the movement.

    KJ
    top 100 by hunter spec - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...4&class=Hunter
    parse breakdown - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...4&class=Hunter
    Once again, 100% more BM parses with MM still performing better.

    TL;DR: About 2x as many people are playing BM in TOS, but MM is performing about 10% better throughout the Raid (80%+ parses). This performance gap widens when you up the parses to 95%+, meaning that as players approach the skill cap for MM, the potential DPS increases noticeably.
    This is completely true.

    The thing is though that this comparison is a bit flawed for the average hunter player, (and this is why logs and sims aren't always the penultimate thing to look at; especially for non high end raiders), because you'll never play both at the same skill level.
    Since BM is easier, you'll generally land higher scores.

    What a lot of people checking the logs do is compare 2 players: player A at 75% MM will do more damage than player B at 75% BM.
    The point is that player A at 75% MM might be at 90% if he plays BM and player B might only score 60% at MM.
    So you're basically comparing better players to worse players in a way if you were to compare the 2 specs at the same percentile.

    If you go back to the basic question: "Is mm the best spec for ToS", then the answer is without doubt: Yes, MM is the best spec in TOS.

    However the question a generic hunter shouldn't ask is: "Is mm the best spec for ToS", but "What is the best spec for me".
    And to the latter question, the answer most people in ToS found is BM. It's more consistent, there is less chance you mess up. And a lot of people found that they tend to score equal or better DPS than marksman.

    I think once things settle a bit more in the farm status (seeing as a lot of guilds are still progressing at their own difficulty level and pugs still wipe plenty on fights), you'll see MM become more dominant and jump ahead on the dps even more.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    This is completely true.

    The thing is though that this comparison is a bit flawed for the average hunter player, (and this is why logs and sims aren't always the penultimate thing to look at; especially for non high end raiders), because you'll never play both at the same skill level.
    Since BM is easier, you'll generally land higher scores.

    What a lot of people checking the logs do is compare 2 players: player A at 75% MM will do more damage than player B at 75% BM.
    The point is that player A at 75% MM might be at 90% if he plays BM and player B might only score 60% at MM.
    So you're basically comparing better players to worse players in a way if you were to compare the 2 specs at the same percentile.

    If you go back to the basic question: "Is mm the best spec for ToS", then the answer is without doubt: Yes, MM is the best spec in TOS.

    However the question a generic hunter shouldn't ask is: "Is mm the best spec for ToS", but "What is the best spec for me".
    And to the latter question, the answer most people in ToS found is BM. It's more consistent, there is less chance you mess up. And a lot of people found that they tend to score equal or better DPS than marksman.

    I think once things settle a bit more in the farm status (seeing as a lot of guilds are still progressing at their own difficulty level and pugs still wipe plenty on fights), you'll see MM become more dominant and jump ahead on the dps even more.
    I did the first 4 to 5 weeks of TOS as BM, pretty much because it's easier to play and I strictly pug so it allowed me to focus on mechanics or raid lead, etc. Recently I switched to MM and my DPS improved at least 150k on ST fights and probably 300-400k on fights with cleave. I think what you said holds a lot of truth. The simplicity of BM allows even a mediocre player to parse in the 70+ range which is a lot better than a lot of the people who show up to pugs. Once you get comfortable with the encounters, making the switch to MM further improves your performance.

    Ultimately, I think the answer to the million dollar question is this: Yes, MM is the better spec for this particular raid tier, it sims and performs better than BM when played well. If you can play MM at that level, it is the spec of choice. If you cannot, then go with BM.

  16. #36
    what % of mastery/crit/haste should i at least have swap? i have currently medalion+engine, 944 bm wep, 945 mm wep... is 24% mastery fine or should be above 26%? etc? any idea coz i wanna swap

  17. #37
    MM is better all around but bm is easier to play and more forgiving to mistakes. If it were me playing hunter I would choose bm for progression unless we were really gimped on dps.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    This is completely true.

    The thing is though that this comparison is a bit flawed for the average hunter player, (and this is why logs and sims aren't always the penultimate thing to look at; especially for non high end raiders), because you'll never play both at the same skill level.
    Since BM is easier, you'll generally land higher scores.

    What a lot of people checking the logs do is compare 2 players: player A at 75% MM will do more damage than player B at 75% BM.
    The point is that player A at 75% MM might be at 90% if he plays BM and player B might only score 60% at MM.
    So you're basically comparing better players to worse players in a way if you were to compare the 2 specs at the same percentile.

    If you go back to the basic question: "Is mm the best spec for ToS", then the answer is without doubt: Yes, MM is the best spec in TOS.

    However the question a generic hunter shouldn't ask is: "Is mm the best spec for ToS", but "What is the best spec for me".
    And to the latter question, the answer most people in ToS found is BM. It's more consistent, there is less chance you mess up. And a lot of people found that they tend to score equal or better DPS than marksman.
    +1 Solid post. The most critical part being the explanation about variance in player skill which is largely based on having BiS legendaries for that spec. 99% parsing BM will beat a 75% parsing MM hunter. It's much easier to get high parses on a class with a much lower skill cap.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    +1 Solid post. The most critical part being the explanation about variance in player skill which is largely based on having BiS legendaries for that spec. 99% parsing BM will beat a 75% parsing MM hunter. It's much easier to get high parses on a class with a much lower skill cap.
    At this point who doesn't have the BIS legendaries for their desired spec? If you've been MM since launch and do any amount of legendary BLP content you will have all of your MM legendaries. I am casual and aside from my 1 weekly M+15, H and N TOS pugs, and my dailies, I have all of the MM legendaries, all of the shared legendaries, and am getting BM legendaries now.

    I seriously doubt that any player in the top 100 parses for any given fight on WCL doesn't have optimal legendaries at their disposal. I think the variance more so comes down to group comp and RNG. If your group overall does 1mil raid dps more than another parsers group then it will effectively be like having an extra DPS in the group. This would shorten the fight and allow you to have higher %uptime on buffs like lust, TS, etc, causing you to parse higher. In regards to RNG, everyone is well aware of the RNG in play with the ST MM legendaries (boots/huntmaster).

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holovik View Post
    The simplicity of BM allows even a mediocre player to parse in the 70+ range which is a lot better than a lot of the people who show up to pugs. Once you get comfortable with the encounters, making the switch to MM further improves your performance.
    That's not at all how normal distributions work. A mediocre BM player will parse at or around the 50th percentile.

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