First M+ Invitational Race Thread

[Emerald Archer]

You will always have easier and harder dungeons each week depending on the affixes. I don't see BRH in the easier pool this week, especially on that key levels. Teeming trash in upper is also very annoying.

Vault, BRH, CoS, EoA, and HoV seem like the best keys this week. I'm not sure exactly what that team that did a +21 upper so fast is doing, but a +22 is doable, though the others seem easier.

I'd have preferred they not make you fish for keys this and next week.

Yeah BRH isn't one of the easy ones for sure, while the timer is quite kind, it's a very tightly enclosed dungeon, so quaking becomes semi-relevant, and teeming makes a few of those mobs, extremely brutal.

DHT would be an easy one for sure. Arcway too, Arcway is always easy, because its timer is way too generous. You just lust on that one shitty pack before the fel lord.

[Emancptr]

Give it a try on +20 or +21, you will be suprised. Teeming changes a lot.

I've done a 21 in-time this week. It literally changes nothing.

1st and 2nd pack have 1 additional mob each. This only requires an interrupt.

2 packs in Curator's room have the pulse mob. This does nothing

Patrol on bridge towards Medivh is skipped.

Additional Wyrms after Mana Devourer. This does nothing

Additional mobs on bridge towards chess event. These do nothing because you skip them.

So please, tell me what Teeming drastically changes in Upper Kara.

[Emerald Archer]

I've done a 21 in-time this week. It literally changes nothing. I promise you.

It increases packs you skip anyway doesn't it?

[Emancptr]

It increases packs you skip anyway doesn't it?

Read edited post. Yes, the only thing Teeming Upper Kara does is increase packs you skip.

[Emerald Archer]

Read edited post. Yes, the only thing Teeming Upper Kara does is increase packs you skip.

Yeah the only guys of note with teeming, are the ones you mentioned as skipping, everything else is whatever.

[Deleted]

I've done a 21 in-time this week. It literally changes nothing.

1st and 2nd pack have 1 additional mob each. This only requires an interrupt.

2 packs in Curator's room have the pulse mob. This does nothing

Patrol on bridge towards Medivh is skipped.

Additional Wyrms after Mana Devourer. This does nothing

Additional mobs on bridge towards chess event. These do nothing because you skip them.

So please, tell me what Teeming drastically changes in Upper Kara.

We went into a +20 and it felt hard because our healer had hard times to keep the group up (holy priest). We skipped the usual stuff but we didn't know that the trash before the chess event was also skipable what is indeed a time killer. We wiped a single time at trash (triple ghost pack at the beginning due to the stacking curse), but farmed several deaths because of some unavoidable spikes and some avoidable fails. I guess the group comp wasnt the best for the key.

Furthermore there must be a reason why only 2 +21 and 4 +20 upper kara keys are finished in time, the bosses are not that hard imo.

[Emancptr]

We went into a +20 and it felt hard because our healer had hard times to keep the group up (holy priest). We skipped the usual stuff but we didn't know that the trash before the chess event was also skipable what is indeed a time killer. We wiped a single time at trash (triple ghost pack at the beginning due to the stacking curse), but farmed several deaths because of some unavoidable spikes and some avoidable fails. I guess the group comp wasnt the best for the key.

Furthermore there must be a reason why only 2 +21 and 4 +20 upper kara keys are finished in time, the bosses are not that hard imo.

I mean your initial argument was that Teeming changed Upper Kara. The 2nd pack that has 3 mobs with the dot is the only hard part of the instance that is changed by teeming.

There's only been 6 Upper Kara's done because it's still in the 4-5 hardest dungeons and people generally avoid it. If you know what you're doing the bosses aren't hard, but most people don't consistently run Upper Kara.

This means they generally struggle with Curator (not doing orbs properly) and might not have an immunity comp (Mana Devourer and Viz'dum). +20 and +21 keys are also where you start to get a 4th special ability from Medivh, which can completely screw you (2x Flame Wreath or 2x Guardian Owls are both 10x harder than getting 2x Relentless Winter).

- - - Updated - - -

wowprogress has now a m+ invitational ranking

Raider.io has a 20x better implementation of this (only thing they're looking to fix is region separation of US/OCE).

https://raider.io/mythic-dungeon-invitational/world

Actually tracks the 5 man teams (which is what Blizzard requires) instead of individual players like wowprogress.

[BiggestNoob]

The top dungeons done in time this week so far are:

+22:

Black Rook Hold - 2
Court of Stars - 2
Vault of the Wardens - 2
Halls of Valor - 2
Eye of Azshara - 1
The Arcway - 1

+21:

Vault of the Wardens - 12
Court of Stars - 11
Eye of Azshara - 9
Halls of Valor - 7
The Arcway - 6
Black Rook Hold - 5
Darkheart Thicket - 4
Neltharion's Lair - 4
Return to Karazhan: Upper - 2
Cathedral of Eternal Night - 1

+20:

Vault of the Wardens - 32
Eye of Azshara - 18
Court of Stars - 15
Halls of Valor - 14
Darkheart Thicket - 13
Neltharion's Lair - 10
Black Rook Hold - 8
The Arcway - 7
Return to Karazhan: Upper - 4
Maw of Souls - 3
Cathedral of Eternal Night - 2

[Kernel]

WoWProgress tracks 5-man groups only now https://www.wowprogress.com/mythic_plus_score_proving/

[Dismembered]

We all know Fragnance will solo and win this

[BiggestNoob]

We all know Fragnance will solo and win this

So far there isn't a Method team close to qualifying, but they could nolife the shit out of this weekend and do fine.

[Emerald Archer]

So far there isn't a Method team close to qualifying, but they could nolife the shit out of this weekend and do fine.

It takes just 1 day for a team to go from not being on the board at all, to being right up the top. They still have like 11 days. Them not showing up now doesn't mean anything at all.

There is no no-lifing required, not sure why you're implying that there's even a rush. The entire top 32, will look completely different than what it does now, in 1 week.

[BiggestNoob]

It takes just 1 day for a team to go from not being on the board at all, to being right up the top. They still have like 11 days. Them not showing up now doesn't mean anything at all.

There is no no-lifing required, not sure why you're implying that there's even a rush. The entire top 32, will look completely different than what it does now, in 1 week.

The easiest keys next week are going to be quite a bit more difficult than the easiest keys this week. It won't change much from what it looks like at the end of this weekend.

And no, there's no way a team is going to go from nowhere to top 8 in 1 day, the sheer RNG in keys prevents that.

[Emerald Archer]

The easiest keys next week are going to be quite a bit more difficult than the easiest keys this week. It won't change much from what it looks like at the end of this weekend.

And no, there's no way a team is going to go from nowhere to top 8 in 1 day, the sheer RNG in keys prevents that.

A group sits down and does a 8-12hr stint, they can easily manage that, most of these teams who are up there, did that. It has only been a few days since it started.

32 teams get through, 8 for each region, you can make top 8 EU EASILY right now, same with US, because no team is done yet, or close to where they'll want to be.

Even getting 5th in EU, you only have to complete 5 18s atm. Pretty sure you can go do 5 18s in a day.

And even next week, you will still see 22s being completed, and 5x 22 will be the goal for most teams. So I don't see the difference? You'd be aiming for 23 this week, because it's easier, then fill it out with 22s next, assuming you don't finish what you want this week.

You heavily over-estimate what the top 8 is currently, it's pretty plain, because not even 1 team has completed all 22s, look at 9th overall, it hasn't even done a 20.

[BiggestNoob]

A group sits down and does a 8-12hr stint, they can easily manage that, most of these teams who are up there, did that. It has only been a few days since it started.

Nope, you literally can't in 12 hours get top 8 EU by comparison to what groups are going to spend the entire weekend doing. Even if you take an average of ~40 minutes per dungeon that's 18 runs, and you need between 2-4 keys with a team to actually push AND you need the RNG to give you a 21 or 22 to complete, and that's per dungeon, and you're not even considering the bullshit that is key RNG where people keep getting the same dungeon over and over or getting all lowers. They're going to keep going this weekend and the only thing they'd fill with next week is keys they can maybe get a 21 on because they ran out of time this week or got screwed by RNG.

Leave it up to Blizzard to have a qualifier where one of the key components is overcoming RNG.

32 teams get through, 8 for each region, you can make top 8 EU EASILY right now, same with US, because no team is done yet, or close to where they'll want to be.

No, you can't. Feel free to jump in some random group and push keys for 16 hours, good luck getting top 20.

Even getting 5th in EU, you only have to complete 5 18s atm. Pretty sure you can go do 5 18s in a day.

No. You're ignoring the 10 or so teams that have multiple 21s and 20s who haven't even attempted other keys that are actually ahead of those players by a huge margin. By your reasoning Meowchan's group was EU 15 until just a moment ago when they hit EU 1 by getting a 5th unique key. If you want to sit down and get 5th in EU right now, you'll have to work your way through enough keys and practice certain dungeons enough to actually complete 20s and 21s on time, you don't just blast through 5 easy 18s and say "got it."

The point of this is to get your 5 HIGHEST keys, not 5 keys done and then try to get the highest. If you get 3 of a dungeon from your pool of 5, you do the lowest -> highest, and the practice lets you push the top key, then if you roll that same dungeon you can time it and hope for a new dungeon you can actually do in time, so timing a 21 to get a 22 lower is an instant dead key, and now you have to get a 20 to a 21 and then likely fail that 21 as a learning key, then time the 20 if you get a decent dungeon, and so on and so forth.

You don't just go to a vendor, say "I'd like a 21 CoS please" and then go 1-shot it, and likewise pounding out trivial keys isn't getting you EU 5th. You severely misunderstand how this works thanks to Blizzard killing depleted keystones. If they hadn't done that, we would see teams with far more +22s done and working on +23s.

And even next week, you will still see 22s being completed, and 5x 22 will be the goal for most teams. So I don't see the difference? You'd be aiming for 23 this week, because it's easier, then fill it out with 22s next, assuming you don't finish what you want this week.

You have the same problem next week. There are certain keys that may be doable at +22, but with different affixes and Tyrannical which is generally much more difficult as an affix. If you need to practice the dungeon several times, you can go through 10 keys and only see a dungeon that's reasonably timable on +22 once. Most groups won't be able to time many +22s this week, let alone doing one next week, and anything +23 or higher is just icing because no region is going to be that competitive. There are only a few timers lenient enough to allow +23s with these affixes, and even then it's incredibly difficult, even with a group at 935 and a decent comp.

You heavily over-estimate what the top 8 is currently, it's pretty plain, because not even 1 team has completed all 22s, look at 9th overall, it hasn't even done a 20.

I see you failed to scroll down and see the #1 Korean team with a 22, 21, 21, and 20.

[Emerald Archer]

I see you failed to scroll down and see the #1 Korean team with a 22, 21, 21, and 20.

I wasn't including teams who hadn't completed 5 keys yet,

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm not saying in one day you could get to the point where you overall finish top 8, I am saying that right now, you could get to top 8 for your region, in 1 day. Ofc the day after you'll be kicked from that position, but I'm saying in a day, you could "catch up" to the higher groups.

Sure with insane bad luck, some of these groups may not be able to do that, but the 5 people, would already have 18-20 keys from the previous week, and you only need 5 18s to get to 6th EU currently, it would normal rng, if say they had 3 unique dungeons, and 2 that were the same, cool, so they get 4 keys 18-20 done in about 3-4hrs, then spend 2-3 hrs getting that last key to be an 18 they hadn't done yet (ofc they could get unlucky, it might take 4-5hrs without insane bad luck) but there you go, 9hrs and they're caught up.

I think you're misunderstanding, in thinking I'm trying to say you could finish top 8 by just doing a single nights work, whereas I meant catch up.

You initially implied that they were very far behind, when they clearly aren't. They can catch up, in a day, and then with the same time left as everyone else, improve their scores to top levels.

[Deleted]

Lot of people have only 4 keys recorded (in the 20-22 range) so of course they are getting beaten by dudes who did 5 18s.
The reason for not much key being push is that most of those players are raiding on wednesday/thursday and cannot play during the day. You will see WAY more higher keys being pushed after this week end (because people can play during the day and few guilds are raiding saturday). I expect the minimum bar to get qualified to be 5 22s (for eu).

[Emerald Archer]

I expect the minimum bar to get qualified to be 5 22s (for eu).

Yep, that'd be a safe bet for minimum. I think a lot will aim for atleast 1 23, it'd near guarantee a spot in top 8 if it was 23, 22x4

[BiggestNoob]

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm not saying in one day you could get to the point where you overall finish top 8, I am saying that right now, you could get to top 8 for your region, in 1 day. Ofc the day after you'll be kicked from that position, but I'm saying in a day, you could "catch up" to the higher groups.

You can't, that's the thing. A group with 2 +22s and a +21 done now is 3/5 and is incredibly far ahead of anyone with only +20s or lower. You're not going to walk in and catch up to them, not in a day. Let me show you why:

Meowchan's group 22 Vault and CoS were done 2 days ago. Their 22 BRH and 21 HoV were done a day ago. Their 21 lower (33 seconds under the timer, showing how difficult the key is by comparison to 22s done minutes under) was done today. They're running lots of keys and they've only actually got 3 decent keys. That lower will get replaced with whatever +22 they got, assuming it is timable and they've had the practice to execute, which they likely do given his team is hands down the best M+ team in the game with far more experience than most.

That's a team with thousands of hours of practice already and it took them 3 days of running keys to get 3 keys. You're just not going to sit down in 1 day and compete, and they're definitely not close to where they'll finish, and the next 7 teams are in a similar position, they've got a few decent keys and are working on rounding out their list of 21s and 22s, and they've likely failed many 21s and 22s because at that level a single wipe is enough to kill the key.

Sure with insane bad luck, some of these groups may not be able to do that, but the 5 people, would already have 18-20 keys from the previous week, and you only need 5 18s to get to 5th EU currently, it would normal rng, if say they had 3 unique dungeons, and 2 that were the same, cool, so they get 4 keys 18-20 done in about 3-4hrs, then spend 2-3 hrs getting that last key to be an 18 they hadn't done yet (ofc they could get unlucky, it might take 4-5hrs without insane bad luck) but there you go, 9hrs and they're caught up.

And having a bunch of 18-20 keys isn't being caught up, it's incredibly far behind. I don't think you understand how much harder a 21 is than a 19, or a 22 from a 20. Groups that can barely time 21s can fairly easily 2 chest 19s, just for reference.

I want you to see something: https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season...king-fortified. Scroll through to see the list of failed 21 keys after the timed ones. Notice how huge that list is. Now go look at the failed 20s. This is where your time goes.

You initially implied that they were very far behind, when they clearly aren't. They can catch up, in a day, and then with the same time left as everyone else, improve their scores to top levels.

I already indicated they could catch up by nolifing this weekend. The whole thing. Not a single day. If they don't, they're not competing, because they're already quite behind.

[Emerald Archer]

And having a bunch of 18-20 keys isn't being caught up, it's incredibly far behind. I don't think you understand how much harder a 21 is than a 19, or a 22 from a 20. Groups that can barely time 21s can fairly easily 2 chest 19s, just for reference.

You're picking at shit that doesn't matter, you can get 3 22 keys done in a day too, that's another version of catching up, the 4th and 5th 22 would take longer than the first 3, because you might start getting dungeon overlaps, but again, you're assuming bad luck.

Not sure why you're dragging this on? In an overly literal way, you're wrong, because x5 18s is better than x2 22 x1 21,
And x3 22 beats x2 22 x1 21,

Both of those things can be done in a single day, 10-12hr playtime.

Either way, who gives a shit? there's 11 days left, you tried to make it seem like they were running out of time, or were behind? When clearly that isn't the case. You can think I'm wrong, sure, we'll see in 11 days if any new groups show up or not.