Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    [RESTO] Prosperity

    I'm pretty sure this have been covered before, but would you guys switch from Cenarion Ward to Prosperity once you get 4set T20?
    I don't have any means of getting T19 so stuck with T20 for now.

    For reference this is my ARMORY (I've been super unlucky with the "right" legendaries)
    LOGS
    gallery . twitch . twitter

    queue:

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Irvine, CA
    Posts
    1,780
    CW is more hps, but prosperity does work nicely with the 4p. It does let you try and capitalize on it more for the fights that it's good on, but on a fight that 4p doesn't do much on, you could probably switch back to CW.
    9

  3. #3
    I mean, you should probably just run abundance on most fights unless you're really in a situation where every bit of mana needs to be stretched for all its worth or you're a log whore, but yes, prosperity does give some extra usefulness and grace time to utilize both tier 20 bonuses better and more time to pool the 4p bonus if there's no aoe damage for a bit

  4. #4
    Thanks for the help guys!
    Logs tend to be important in my guild .. or I would say it's rather competitive. But if anything since we're progressing I want to do my outmost to help the guild.
    Last edited by MYTHRIZ; 2017-07-27 at 04:34 PM.
    gallery . twitch . twitter

    queue:

  5. #5
    If you have SotA and the t20 4pc, I find that prosperity is really strong. You get to keep cultivation, get a huge buff to efflo, and if you pick your swiftmend targets wisely, get constant SotF buffed WG's thanks to the reduced CD.

    It's very strong in M+ as well; pulling 1m+ hps on certain trash packs.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    With prosperity, if you use swiftmend on cooldown you only get 3 seconds shaved off its CD and one extra swiftmend to use whenever (only one swiftmend charges at any point). I don't think that's enough to overtake cenarion ward in any scenario.


    Maybe i am missing something, how would you use it?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by zahlanzi View Post
    With prosperity, if you use swiftmend on cooldown you only get 3 seconds shaved off its CD and one extra swiftmend to use whenever (only one swiftmend charges at any point). I don't think that's enough to overtake cenarion ward in any scenario.


    Maybe i am missing something, how would you use it?
    Using Prosperity allows you to delay Swiftmends without wasting cd time. Yes if you strictly using it on CD and always have a good target for Swiftmend it is only 3 sec cd reduce, but that isn't a realistic scenario. But even considering this advantage prosperity won't often trump the HpS of Cenarion Ward. But i don't think that has to be the case to be a useful alternative.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Grenor View Post
    Using Prosperity allows you to delay Swiftmends without wasting cd time. Yes if you strictly using it on CD and always have a good target for Swiftmend it is only 3 sec cd reduce, but that isn't a realistic scenario. But even considering this advantage prosperity won't often trump the HpS of Cenarion Ward. But i don't think that has to be the case to be a useful alternative.
    I am thinking in the context of having 4T20 when you need the extra healing for Efflorescence. I would say that you do want to use it on cooldown to boost the healing of Efflorescence.

    The only scenario i can think of when you want 2 swiftmends back to back is if there is 20 seconds of damage when you want to boost Efflorescence (second swiftmend after 10 seconds). That means you have to hold on to charges and lose boosted Efflorescence someplace else. And people actually have to stand in the puddle. I don't think this would justify losing a huge hot that can be flourished/g'hanired plus the mastery bonus it gives and shamans can do better spot heal if you really need it.


    In higher m+ i would sooner get Abundance than Prosperity.

    Druids' job is not to save people on the brink of dying with 2 swiftmends. Druids' purpose is to have good sustained healing.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by zahlanzi View Post
    With prosperity, if you use swiftmend on cooldown you only get 3 seconds shaved off its CD and one extra swiftmend to use whenever (only one swiftmend charges at any point). I don't think that's enough to overtake cenarion ward in any scenario.


    Maybe i am missing something, how would you use it?
    Along with the above comment, I use it for 5 mans when Abundance isn't needed. The downtime between packs will allow you to have 2 charges going into packs most of the time, which is nice when you're using the T20 4pc. For raiding I'm still sticking with T19 + shoulders though.

  10. #10
    Keyboard Turner Cloudmighty's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by zahlanzi View Post
    I am thinking in the context of having 4T20 when you need the extra healing for Efflorescence. I would say that you do want to use it on cooldown to boost the healing of Efflorescence.

    The only scenario i can think of when you want 2 swiftmends back to back is if there is 20 seconds of damage when you want to boost Efflorescence (second swiftmend after 10 seconds). That means you have to hold on to charges and lose boosted Efflorescence someplace else. And people actually have to stand in the puddle. I don't think this would justify losing a huge hot that can be flourished/g'hanired plus the mastery bonus it gives and shamans can do better spot heal if you really need it.


    In higher m+ i would sooner get Abundance than Prosperity.

    Druids' job is not to save people on the brink of dying with 2 swiftmends. Druids' purpose is to have good sustained healing.
    I can't say that I agree with this. At least not in higher level M+ I run 2PC T19/20 for the boost to mastery after WG and the reduced CD on Swiftmend. That + Prosperity has saved a lot of people in higher level M+ where any mistake a melee might make means they're at the brink of death. Abundance isn't bad at all and actually viable. I just think Prosperity is more of a safe option in higher M+ especially with the legendary bracers.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluian05 View Post
    Along with the above comment, I use it for 5 mans when Abundance isn't needed. The downtime between packs will allow you to have 2 charges going into packs most of the time, which is nice when you're using the T20 4pc. For raiding I'm still sticking with T19 + shoulders though.
    Prehoting on the move will accomplish this as well. If abundance isn't needed, then you don't need 2 buffed efflorescences back to back, yet a cenarion ward on the tank would be much better healing overall.


    The swiftmend charges don't recharge independently. That would have been indeed nice. To benefit from the two charge, you have to hold on to at least one, for some fights even two. That means that there are a lot of packs where you don't use swiftmend AND you don't have Cenarion ward, which is huge.


    If someone is dying and you absolutely need to save them fast, abundance is better. If you don't need abundance, Cenarion ward is more sustained healing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grenor View Post
    Using Prosperity allows you to delay Swiftmends without wasting cd time. Yes if you strictly using it on CD and always have a good target for Swiftmend it is only 3 sec cd reduce, but that isn't a realistic scenario. But even considering this advantage prosperity won't often trump the HpS of Cenarion Ward. But i don't think that has to be the case to be a useful alternative.
    I am thinking in the context of having 4T20 when you need the extra healing for Efflorescence. I would say that you do want to use it on cooldown to boost the healing of Efflorescence.

    The only scenario i can think of when you want 2 swiftmends back to back is if there is 20 seconds of damage when you want to boost Efflorescence (second swiftmend after 10 seconds). That means you have to hold on to charges and lose boosted Efflorescence someplace else. And people actually have to stand in the puddle. I don't think this would justify losing a huge hot that can be flourished/g'hanired plus the mastery bonus it gives and shamans can do better spot heal if you really need it.


    In higher m+ i would sooner get Abundance than Prosperity.

    Druids' job is not to save people on the brink of dying with 2 swiftmends. Druids' purpose is to have good sustained healing.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by zahlanzi View Post
    Prehoting on the move will accomplish this as well. If abundance isn't needed, then you don't need 2 buffed efflorescences back to back, yet a cenarion ward on the tank would be much better healing overall.


    The swiftmend charges don't recharge independently. That would have been indeed nice. To benefit from the two charge, you have to hold on to at least one, for some fights even two. That means that there are a lot of packs where you don't use swiftmend AND you don't have Cenarion ward, which is huge.


    If someone is dying and you absolutely need to save them fast, abundance is better. If you don't need abundance, Cenarion ward is more sustained healing.
    I won't disagree that in most situations Prosperity is probably the weakest of the 3 talents.

    To add to your last comment, if multiple people are taking heaving damage (in regards to 5 man), buffed Eff is probably better over the other 2 options. Now you can make the argument you don't need this since we already have WG/G'hanir or Tranq combo and it's just adding to the same toolkit, just more of it.

    I think for 5 mans it just comes down to personal preference, either choice won't make or break your healing capability. Which is kind of the intent Blizzard had for talents all along.

  13. #13
    For me, with 2pc t19 and 4pc t20, along with SotA, prosperity has become the go to in raid. Wild growth and efflorescence does a lot of healing when buffed. So much so that I will use swiftmend when not needed to keep the up the buff uptime. For 5 man though, it's meh. I much prefer abundance.

  14. #14
    When you look at the actual healing numbers, I don't see any justification for taking Prosperity. Looking at my overall healing breakdown across the first 5 Mythic bosses, 4.8% of my healing was from Cenarion Ward. Using the legendary analyzer, my T20 4 piece healing accounted for an average of about 6% added healing. Prosperity essentially gives you 10% more 4 procs plus one extra proc per fight. A typical fight is probably 8 minutes, making the extra usage effectively 5.8% more Swiftmends, so let's just round it and say it gives you 16% more Swiftmend uses/16% higher uptime on the 4 piece.

    With 4 piece worth ~6%, 16% more value to it is +0.96% added total healing. That makes it only about 20% of the healing added by just taking CW and making decent use of it. Yes, I know that having Prosperity gives you more flexibility on 4 piece timing to more effectively line up damage patterns which does have value. However, you still have the restriction that the Swiftmend uses have to be at least 10 seconds apart (to avoid overwriting the 4 piece buff), which cuts into that flexibility. And, no matter how good you are at leveraging Prosperity to get your 4 piece off at optimal times, I think that there's no way that you are going to be able to come close to squeezing the approximately 5x the value out of it that you would need to break even from taking the talent vs taking CW.

    TLDR, I see no justification for taking Prosperity because you have 4 piece; it's going to end up being a loss, probably in the range of 3%-4% less total healing vs just sticking with CW as the default raid talent.

    As far as using it with 4 piece plus the SoTA ring, I also tested that on a couple of fights, and was getting ~6% extra healing from SoTF on average - pretty much exactly the same healing from 4 piece itself. Therefore, with that combo, you're looking at 1.9% added healing from the synergy with Prosperity vs ~5% added healing from CW. Even with the most amazing timing in the world, I don't think you make up the deficit. Also, I should say that I absolutely hate the SoTF/SoTA/4 piece play style. It absolutely felt like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and felt like I was restricted from being able to use my burst when I wanted to because of the lining up of the Swiftmend/WG CDs. I get why Prosperity would feel like a gain by giving you more fluidity of that play style, but I just don't believe the numbers line up with it making sense. You can instead equip something like Prydaz or the Lifebloom belt instead of SoTA and get a similar throughput gain without the talent/playstyle restrictiveness.

  15. #15
    It's a mistake to say "CW is X% of my healing so it's an X% healing increase". Presumably, you'd be casting another spell in its place that would do some fraction of that healing. Trying to pin down how effective that replacement heal will be is so dependent on the exact scenario it seems dangerous to estimate, but something like 25-50% seems reasonable.

    I also think there's a bit of a feedback loop with the 2P and Prosperity. You have more flexibility with your Swiftmend usage so you're more often able to hit people with low health which gives your more SMs. Hitting substantial CD reductions on SM, when you would not have had a SM available or would have wanted to save Swiftmend for an upcoming high raid healing event, can end up providing significantly more than the 3 sec SM CD reduction we're evaluating the talent for. Having more SMs available also allows you to respond to burst damage better. CW can feel like a fast answer to damage because its healing happens faster than Rejuv but it is still slow.

    I don't think either of these make Prosperity better than CW in all or most situations, but I think it takes CW from having a 3-4% lead to a 1-2% lead at which point, in the right scenario, things like added flexibility and more burst healing could give Prosperity an edge.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    It's a mistake to say "CW is X% of my healing so it's an X% healing increase". Presumably, you'd be casting another spell in its place that would do some fraction of that healing. Trying to pin down how effective that replacement heal will be is so dependent on the exact scenario it seems dangerous to estimate, but something like 25-50% seems reasonable.

    I also think there's a bit of a feedback loop with the 2P and Prosperity. You have more flexibility with your Swiftmend usage so you're more often able to hit people with low health which gives your more SMs. Hitting substantial CD reductions on SM, when you would not have had a SM available or would have wanted to save Swiftmend for an upcoming high raid healing event, can end up providing significantly more than the 3 sec SM CD reduction we're evaluating the talent for. Having more SMs available also allows you to respond to burst damage better. CW can feel like a fast answer to damage because its healing happens faster than Rejuv but it is still slow.

    I don't think either of these make Prosperity better than CW in all or most situations, but I think it takes CW from having a 3-4% lead to a 1-2% lead at which point, in the right scenario, things like added flexibility and more burst healing could give Prosperity an edge.
    But, if you're going to count whatever you'd cast with the same mana/GCDs as CW, don't you then also have to factor in that if you don't have Prosperity, and therefore are not casting ~16% more Swiftmends, you would similarly be casting something different with those GCDs and mana? In an 8 minute fight, you're probably looking at 16 CW casts vs ~3 extra SM casts, but SM is also 50% more mana expenditure than CW per cast, so I think that factor probably comes pretty close to offsetting.

  17. #17
    Wow, I was gone the weekend so didn't notice this got so many replies.
    Mainly I was thinking of switching to Prosperity during raids to get as much buff on efflo as possible. Maybe even SotF (unless I get the ring)
    gallery . twitch . twitter

    queue:

  18. #18
    Hey,

    I think most rdruids wanted to make the T20 and the SoTA-ring work in some way, and you can. While you consider this you can't just look at raw numbers since on a progressfight it somewhat depends what your role/job is and where you need the healing. Let's take Desolate hosts spirit realm for example:

    Very little spiky damage outside of wailing souls and some tank damage (if you don't have a blood DK like we do). The rdruid would do the tankhealing here and yeah you pretty much want CW for tankhealing (added masterystack and it is very consistent), but now consider the wailing souls phase:

    With T204p + Prosperity + FLourish/Ghanir/Velens + SoTA + Incarn + Tranq you can almost solo the entire minute of wailing souls, you might need a little help at the end and a little help with the withered targets.

    What makes Prosperity good here? Well it helps you line 3x sotf + incarn buffed WGs and gives you a buffed Efflo for almost the entire tree duration. Add 10 secs for Flourish/Ghanir/Velens which will combine with the last buffed WG in incarn and add around 6-8secs for tranq. You just solo'd 46-48secs of this phase and might even be able to do the rest with your basic spells.

    Sounds good right? Well it has some downsides. As has been pointed out here before, the playstyle is very restrictive and somewhat boring since you pretty much have to do exactly the same every other wailing souls (we got 3 on our firstkill). Furthermore you lose A LOT of mana. I burned through 70-80% even with innervate when trying to solo the first wailing souls. yeah you could spam wrath for 1-2min and have your mana back for the 3rd wailing souls but that is not realistic. Finally you need mana in the last phase for doomed sundering/sundering doom.

    This fight is probably the best fight to use your T20 and SoTA and even after REALLY trying to make this work I just switched back to T19-4p + Shoulders and just killed it. So much manasave, so much GCDs saved from that. In the end nothing can compete with that.

    So in my opinion the best advice to give is: Get your shoulders. Get your T19. Get your Velens and just play with CW until T21 hits.

    Cheers
    RestoSpirit

  19. #19
    The current top log on mythic KJ uses prosperity, spring blossoms, SotF via Soul of the Archdruid and wears 2p t19 & 4p t20.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...tical&source=6

    https://druid-legendary-analyser.her...X6n1D&fight=68

    Yeah, we all know that cenarion ward and 4p t19 bonus are strong, but t20 is perfectly viable.

    Maybe cenarion ward gives a tiny bit more hps overall (when not using t20), but being able to use swiftmend twice within 10 seconds for two 75% stronger Wild Growths as well as 20 seconds of tripled efflorescence healing is pretty damn good as well.

    Seems logical to learn how to use t20 properly instead of farming Nighthold for that ilvl 955 t19 that you'll never get anyway

  20. #20
    to be fair that guy is completely geared for spring blossoms/efflo/4p, he dropped pretty much everything he could that wasn't haste and mastery
    I kind of wish I could put together a set like that, at least for M+

    yeah though as implicated above, the main gain from prosperity is that it occasionally lets you snipe a better 2p swiftmend or 3 efflo buffs in a row
    if you aren't able to find those, prosperity isn't going to be great, and the availability will always be inconsistent
    your overall healing may take a hit
    but I do maintain that cenarion ward is a bit uhh, not very meaningful healing and not a huge deal to lose unless you really need the mana efficiency and just kind of there...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •