View Poll Results: Azhara or Arthas

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  • Azhara

    226 50.11%
  • Lich king

    225 49.89%
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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathbourne View Post
    The Iron Horde killed Mannoroth the second time and only did so by ambushing him.
    Also he did take an Iron Star to his sides, those things probably hurt And yeah, people underestimate Gorehowl because it's not that flashy

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Also he did take an Iron Star to his sides, those things probably hurt And yeah, people underestimate Gorehowl because it's not that flashy
    to be fair, the only thing special about that axe in the old lore is that it's grom's weapon.

    the chronicle made it powerful.

  3. #203
    Mannoroth is a bigger failure than Goroth.

  4. #204
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Mannoroth is a bigger failure than Goroth.
    Kind of depends, really. We've really no backstory on Goroth aside from knowledge that he's failed quite a lot. Perhaps Goroth's incompetence is a bit of a Legion legend and in-joke - we've just not encountered him yet because the Legion didn't trust him in any capacity against defenders that have repulsed them twice over.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsSpiRo View Post
    Rhonin was mediocre mage? What the fuck did i just read..
    Rhonin also had 10000 years of Mage knowledge over any other Mage in that period.
    That's just so retarded... And no it wasn't even just knowledge, his power was amplified beyond any of theirs.
    Neptulon did not create Naga 100%.. It was N'zoth the Old God. And plus Well of Eternity was blood or whatnot from Y'Shaarj the Old God.
    It's not stated who was the one that created them, only that the Old Gods made a pact with Azshara. Going by how they look, it's safe to say that Neptulon was the one who changed them(Old Gods changing people from their prisons, whole populace when only one agrees is not likely)
    Powered Aegwynn + Aspects managed to defeat demons and avatar of Sargeras..
    What Aspects where present during that battle?
    Doubtful, but it could be possible that Aegwynn without any powerup could defeat Mannoroth..
    Based on all her feats and how easily he dies, i'd say she'd have a hard time but still kills him without guardian powers.
    Stop saying like power up from well is same shit like LITERALLY taking power from other characters. It's not the same.
    You're right, getting power from the lifeblood of the most powerful titan is not the same as borrowing a portion of power from a few weaker mages. Can you imagine that the Sunwell was created from just a vial of the Well of Eternity? Crazy :/

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Kind of depends, really. We've really no backstory on Goroth aside from knowledge that he's failed quite a lot. Perhaps Goroth's incompetence is a bit of a Legion legend and in-joke - we've just not encountered him yet because the Legion didn't trust him in any capacity against defenders that have repulsed them twice over.
    true though I was mostly joking.

    as for base Aegwynn, who knows.

    though my rate is like this

    base Aegwynn > demon Illidan (stated to be stronger than any of Archimonde's lieutenants) > Tichondrius >= Mannoroth
    Last edited by DemonHunter18; 2017-08-02 at 12:45 PM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    That's just so retarded... And no it wasn't even just knowledge, his power was amplified beyond any of theirs.
    It wasn't just knowledge? Did you even read the book? Rhonin literally had 10000 years of magic research at his disposal. While everyone else was pretty much at starting point. Like sending scientist in this period 10000 years in past and saying it will not make difference lmao..

    It's not stated who was the one that created them, only that the Old Gods made a pact with Azshara. Going by how they look, it's safe to say that Neptulon was the one who changed them(Old Gods changing people from their prisons, whole populace when only one agrees is not likely)
    It does not need to be stated. Neptulon has no such power.. That is not safe to say at all. That is retarded to say lmao.. Neptulon was literally fighting against Naga and you are claiming he created them. I first time even hear someone spout such nonsense..

    What Aspects where present during that battle?
    It was not specified, it was just said Dragonflights.

    Based on all her feats and how easily he dies, i'd say she'd have a hard time but still kills him without guardian powers.
    Based on all her feats when she was powered by most powerful mages on Azeroth.

    You're right, getting power from the lifeblood of the most powerful titan is not the same as borrowing a portion of power from a few weaker mages. Can you imagine that the Sunwell was created from just a vial of the Well of Eternity? Crazy :/
    I know i am right. You say "weaker" mages about strongest mages on the Azeroth. Cool story bro..

  8. #208
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Eh, the Legion gathers all sort of crap too. Even Sargeras crafted himself some artifacts to achieve certain things he couldn't have done otherwise.
    The difference is that we know Sargeras doesn't show his face around because he's not exactly easy to summon (the same more or less applied to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde as well). Azshara has no such excuses yet she definitely avoids direct confrontations of any sort.

    IIRC it's just because he was so obsessed with it that he wore it on his body all the time.
    Well, I remember quite clearly Deathwing growing in considerable size while unmistakenly trying to absorb the Dragon Soul's power in the WotA instance.

    I know Deathwing isn't the most trustful narrator, but I kinda doubt Titans gave Neltharion the power to turn his wings and limbs into giant molten tentacles with enough power to kill another Aspect on their own. Same goes for magical superblood or the fact that nothing can kill him since he'll regenerate even from scraps. And I didn't mean they were replaced per se. Just that he got them and used them instead of the Aspect power for the most part.
    I agree that the magical superblood may be Old God's own and exclusive material (especially if he developed such ability right in Cataclysm and not before, something I don't honestly remember) but Old Gods can't produce magma. Magma is, in fact, a natural element. It's molten earth in the first place. And that's strictly tied to Deathwing's original Titan gift. The Old Gods merely reshaped that basis.

    And I'm not sure if the Void and Dark Shamanism is the best comparison. First of all, it's mostly achieved through Decay and only AU Orcs used Void for that. Secondly, Dark Shamanism, at least from what I gather, is more about a shortcut to what Shamanism can offer. Whereas in case of Deathwing, I'm not sure where the concept of shortcuts could even apply.
    Dark Shamanism is much more than simply bending the elements to one's will. It manages to corrupt and twist the elements. That's why Garrosh's shamans could turn the elements into "burned-out ash, corrupted waters and toxic air." Magma itself is considered a form of elemental unbalance as it merges fire and earth in a way it shouldn't be (at least within the instances where the elements are supposed to be independent and pure) and magma is definitely among the arsenal of Dark Shamans, seeing their ability to summon twisted molten giants and whose creation are considered a dangerous practice and threat towards elemental balance. Now, if we look at Deathwing, we see what once was the Aspect of Earth, who lorded over everything earth-related, turning into a fiery magma agglomeration. To me the parallel is obvious enough.

    About Decay, well, Death and Decay can definitely be seen as the physical manifestation of Void within the universe much as Life and Spirit are of the Light. They're not directly related but when the primordial clash happened, it's quite easy to understand which one of the two cosmic forces had the bigger role in the creations of these physical energies. This is indeed further confirmed from the Warsong Orcs of AU Nagrand, that achieved very similar results to Dark Shamanism by harnessing the Void into their elemental practicies. The Old Gods are themselves, moreover, actual physical manifestations of the Void Lords within the universe, albeit their origin remain the Void realm, which means they may not actually unrelated to the Decay sphere.

    Well, as I said, she was most likely plan B. I mean, she's no Deathwing, but she still could have been a great asset for the Hour of Twilight and yet was almost unused by N'zoth.
    Depends from the extent of that asset. Chances are that Azshara's own army was, back then, more valuable and strategically useful than Azshara herself.

    And being a backup replacement for Deathwing would actually say quite a lot about her in terms of importance to N'zoth or her power, and rather positive things at that.
    Well, that if she's imagined as a literal back up plan, something that can't really be confirmed. I doubt she could even barely match Deathwing's immense destructive potential. Being a back up plan may also simply mean playing a more direct role in the grand scheme once Deathwing failed, ranging from working on freeing N'Zoth, resurrecting Deathwing himself or achieving the Hour of Twilight through other means. Then again, Deathwing actually failed and the Hour of Twilight never happened and she did nothing about it, one way or the other.
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  9. #209
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Kind of depends, really. We've really no backstory on Goroth aside from knowledge that he's failed quite a lot. Perhaps Goroth's incompetence is a bit of a Legion legend and in-joke - we've just not encountered him yet because the Legion didn't trust him in any capacity against defenders that have repulsed them twice over.
    I don't think there is a single member of burning legion who has right to mock someones incompetence.

  10. #210
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I don't think there is a single member of burning legion who has right to mock someones incompetence.
    Criticism is relative. If one assumes the bar is very low for the rank and file of the Burning Legion, then just imagine what Goroth must have in his personnel file to earn the disdain of his peers like that.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  11. #211
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Criticism is relative. If one assumes the bar is very low for the rank and file of the Burning Legion, then just imagine what Goroth must have in his personnel file to earn the disdain of his peers like that.
    Perhaps he said "Guys we need to rethink our strategy" during important meeting ?

  12. #212
    I usually enjoy these speculation threads, but it gets so annoying when random limiters are thrown on characters because the OP is biased. You've completely removed necromantic powers from the Lich King based on the OP's responses in this thread. That's like removing arcane energy from Azshara and then pitting her vs. a full powered Lich King with necromancy. Gee golly guys, I wonder who would win?

  13. #213
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I usually enjoy these speculation threads, but it gets so annoying when random limiters are thrown on characters because the OP is biased. You've completely removed necromantic powers from the Lich King based on the OP's responses in this thread. That's like removing arcane energy from Azshara and then pitting her vs. a full powered Lich King with necromancy. Gee golly guys, I wonder who would win?
    My issue with these types of threads is that they're so contextual - outside patently mismatched opponents (e.g. Sargeras vs. a Gnomish infant) it's very difficult to say who could "win" in a duel between two powerful and skilled characters. Does the Lich King has a contingent of Scourge minions at his back as part of his power is based on raising and controlling the undead? Does Azshara have her complete will or is she suborned by N'Zoth's control? Does Azshara have access to N'Zoth's power in addition to her own, where is the fight staged (and would that have an effect on the Lich King's relative power level)? Given a change in circumstance, location, or specifics the match could swing in a number of directions wildly and randomly.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  14. #214
    Bloodsail Admiral Rathbourne's Avatar
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    Closing this thread would be a good idea. 11 pages of rather baseless speculation.Everything that need to be said has kinda been said.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Azshara's power is up to speculation and she is heavily overrated.

    Lich King wins this until Azshara gets some feats.
    Basically this.

    Essentially what's being compared is:
    1) Someone who - in the original timeline - was unable to defeat Malfurion in a direct encounter (ie: raw power vs. raw power), and then - in both timelines - required the help of N'zoth because she was unable to maintain a barrier to stop the crashing tides of the Sundering or cast any magic to allow her and her servants to survive underwater.
    2) An entity which, in it's initial and weakest incarnation, was able to spread a plague of undeath and take over a continent without needing a body of his own, telepathically communicate to creatures - living (Kel'thuzad) or dead (the Scourge) - on other continents, and had the intellect to both manipulate the Legion and the forces of Azeroth such that his most powerful and intelligent servants believed him able to tell the future (contentious, as Ner'zhul was a Shaman and could have very well been able to do so).
    In its second incarnation, displayed many of the aforementioned powers, as well as having successfully killed the heroes of Azeroth - the ones who defeated Illidan, Kil'jaeden, and fully awoken C'thun - to only be defeated because his own hubris.
    And finally, in its third incarnation, displays the powers of his previous incarnations, as well as being known to have a significantly stronger will than Arthas (he did not break after the death of his men, dying painfully because of Putress' gassing of the joint Alliance/Horde forces, being brought back to life in a twisted form by Alexstraza's flame, and then captured and tortured by Arthas within the span of the Northrend campaign) and is, arguably, stronger than him, depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision.

    It's not a competition. The only reason you would vote for Azshara is if you took nothing into account but Mannoth's aside stating that only Archimonde and Kil'jaeden would prove her superior, and assumed that because of this she needs no real feats of her own.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Basically this.

    It's not a competition. The only reason you would vote for Azshara is if you took nothing into account but Mannoth's aside stating that only Archimonde and Kil'jaeden would prove her superior, and assumed that because of this she needs no real feats of her own.
    I want to add (maybe many mentioned it but as many ignored it) - Azshara was powerful because of her link with the Well of Eternity. So were and all casters on Azeroth due its effects on the magic. Now the Well is destroyed (as of the end result of WotA) and Azshara power source is completely removed from the picture.
    Maybe, just maybe, the deal with the Old gods she made to survive the Sundering gave her extra "juice", but in no way she will be able to reach that level of power she had 10k years ago.

    We have never rellly witnessed the true power of both characters, but if i remember somewhere there was story about how Athas main plan was actually to get KJ to the Frozen Throne, because that is the only place where he can have the upper hand in a fight with him. Idk if it was fan made or w/e, but iI think it showed that the LK actualy had way way more power than we ever saw. He was just kinda saving for the bigger fight.
    Also some people mentioned it - we all know what happens when you get mage vs antimage fight.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    And finally, in its third incarnation, displays the powers of his previous incarnations, as well as being known to have a significantly stronger will than Arthas (he did not break after the death of his men, dying painfully because of Putress' gassing of the joint Alliance/Horde forces, being brought back to life in a twisted form by Alexstraza's flame, and then captured and tortured by Arthas within the span of the Northrend campaign) and is, arguably, stronger than him, depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision.
    What do you mean depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision? I thought it's 200% canonical material and in 400% is about Bolvar?
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  18. #218
    And the guys on the top almost know the story. Azshara fought with Malfurion in the manual to Warcraft 3. In the Chronicles there is not a word about their battle. And even in the Manual it was not said that he specifically defeated her 1 by 1. She just could not stop him from destroying the Well. It does not really show her power.
    Oh my God, how I already hate people with their argument about '' The well was destroyed ''. Xavia's strength also came from the Well, but with him he lost to Malfurion (even after becoming a satyr), however, after concluding a deal with N'Zot in the book, he captured and tortured Malfurion, who could not get out without the Ax. Not to mention the fact that in the Legion Malfurion lost just the avatar of Xavia. You really underestimate how much Old God could help Azshara.

  19. #219
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What do you mean depending on whether you put any stock into Velen's vision? I thought it's 200% canonical material and in 400% is about Bolvar?
    To be fair, it's not entirely clear who the Lich King of the vision is, only that he's stronger than both Arthas and Ner'zhul ever were.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    You really underestimate how much Old God could help Azshara.
    No, it's people overestimating that. Because, so far, the Naga shown nothing really special about them except being a bunch of reptillian creatures able to live and breath underwater that managed to develop a powerful connection with the sea and water elemental magics, for obvious reasons. And Azshara has no reasons to be that different. If she was then all of her subjects should have shown a lesser extent of that. Rather, everything implies that right now she's probably pretty darn good with those water elemental magics. Maybe, since she's above the average in terms of talent, she'll be able to mix it perfectly with tons of Shadow magic (thanks to the Old Gods). But that's it. Surely not some incredibly impressive monster who could mop the floor with the Lich King himself.
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    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
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    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    To be fair, it's not entirely clear who the Lich King of the vision is, only that he's stronger than both Arthas and Ner'zhul ever were.
    That was my point :3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

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