View Poll Results: Azhara or Arthas

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  • Azhara

    228 50.22%
  • Lich king

    226 49.78%
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  1. #161
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Eh, given how vague her power is, this is unsubstantiated as well. We've never seen anything solid from Azshara without Well of Eternity to gauge her power one way or another.
    We know however that without the Well, she was just another Night Elf with some impressive gift for the Arcane. And there's only that far a mortal arcanist can go. If anything, she was a rather undisciplined sorcerer who entirely relied upon her talent and the raw potency of the Well where Khadgar, for example, wields magic forged through centuries of academic progress and development. Maybe Azshara has such an amazing talent that she can compensate for all of that by just being "awesome" but again, there's really not that far she can go without a solid power boost. And being the Arcane her most prominent field of competence, I'm not sure how the Old Gods may have helped in compensating the loss of the Well. I'm pretty sure they likely didn't.

    Now, a speculation of my own (or theorycrafting to be more specific), but one of Illidan's vials from the original Well of Eternity is still unaccounted for. It's possible it was still in Kerrilldank's possession around TBC given the state of the other two unused vials. And she was surrounded by Naga. The Illidari Naga are opposed to Neptulon at least, just like Azshara, so there could have been Azshara loyalists mixed in with the rest of the squad, on the lookout for fancy stuff in Outland. Azshara is sort of artifact hoarder for what we know of her.

    Now, to establish the theory part of theorycrafting, if Blizzard thought things through and decided that Azshara isn't powerful in her own right to be a focus of the story, they could make it that she did get her scaly hands on said vial and used it to create a smaller Well of Eternity for her own use. Technically a Sunwell v2, but it's not like sun reaches Zin-Azshari. Plus who knows how potent it'd get if used at the place of the original WoE.
    Azshara's habit of hoarding around is quite a decent indicator that she's definitely in need to boost some power she doesn't currently possess herself. Now, it may be totally possible that the moment we meet her she may have turned into something but since all the hype about her is built on past and overall misinterpreted information the evalutation is fundamentally flawed. The fact that she barely shows her squamous face around doesn't surely help.

    Deathwing never personally held the gifts of the other Aspects. And those gifts were freed by Rhonin when he destroyed the Demon Soul anyway.
    Pretty sure Deathwing tried at first to absorb the power of the (once) Dragon Soul onto himself. He succeeded to a degree but couldn't go far with that as the power was pretty much tearing his body apart. That was the reason he started to wear the plating, to keep his body whole and given how this habit wasn't lost in Cataclysm, the power was still there.

    Besides, by his own admission, he did receive new gifts from Old Gods since his last appearance. Gifts, that judging from the context of the discussion in which he raised the topic, were supposed to replace the Titan ones he squandered (and, judging by his other encounters, no longer gave a shit about), possibly even surpass it.
    I'd like to apply a degree of cautiousness when judging Deathwing's own statements as he never really looked that sane throughout the expansion. Alexstrasza mentions "wasted gifts", which to me sounds more like making a shitty usage of such gifts rather than being replaced by something else. Then of course Deathwing praised the "true masters of Azeroth" and all that jazz which, in fact, is not totally untrue as the awakening of Yogg-Saron and C'Thun definitely delivered a power boost of sort, but the base of that power remained strictly tied to Deathwing's unique gifts over the earth. Hell, he was a literal flying bomb of magma ready to explode at the right moment. The "hand" of the Old Gods wasn't really that visible (maybe except the magma tentacles sprouting during the Spine/Madness fights) given how the Old Gods' entire realm of competence is the Void. And you can see the connection between Old Gods and Deathwing as much as the one between Void and Dark Shamanism: not a direct power boost but rather the twisting and corruption of an already established power.

    I'd say it's more because of Malfurion's personal history with Azshara that Azshara worked as a distraction against him. Would have worked with Xavius as well (as evidenced by Legion). Deathwing could have puked other Deathwings instead of Ragnaros up on Hyjal and Malfurion would still have focused on Azshara. Doesn't say much about her power per se. Plus at the time of Darkshore the Twilight Hammer offensive on Hyjal was still rather low-key.
    It's not a direct indication of her power (it may still be an indirect one, though) but surely said something about the overall importance. It's nonetheless underwhelming that during the epitome of all Old Gods' plans, the Hour of Twilight, all Azshara did was distracting a mortal druid. I can see someone coming up with excuses like game mechanics and other gibberish but on the end of the day, in the unfolding of the grand scheme planned by millennias by the Old Gods, Azshara meant shit. And I don't see the point of sidelining in that way someone who's, according to some of the folks here, the most powerful being on Azeroth or something along those lines.

    As for chain of command, we have no established source saying she did it on Deathwing's behalf and not because N'zoth told her so. Deathwing summoning Ragnaros or some of the Al'akir stuff indicates a difference in rank between Deathwing and the Elemental Lords, but Azshara merely calls everyone involved in Hyjal allies, nothing else. She also didn't engage in Deathwing's campaign other than that, instead pursuing her own goals (and perhaps acting as N'zoth's backup plan in case Hour of Twilight failed).
    I didn't meant actual chains of command but rather overall importance and relevance in N'Zoth's schemes. It's pretty clear as day that Azshara was, as you put it, a backup plan at most. If she was free to pursue her own goals it may also mean that she wasn't really needed for anything really important (even though the hostile actions pursued against Neptulon pretty much reflected those of the Twilight's Hammer against Therazane, having in common the unwillingness to join their buddies Ragnaros and Al'akir in the whole Old God fuckfest, meaning Azshara's forces at least had a part to play, albeit not a really big one).

    Eh, other than maybe MoP (which still had Lei Shen, i.e. someone stronger than Arthas), the Lich King is still the shittiest expansion end boss in WoW's history. Power-wise, that is.
    Oh I really have no intention to fanwank on the Lich King either but I still easily consider Arthas above Azshara as long the most we can guess of her is being the top Naga arcanist. For all we currently know, there's really not much beyond that.
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  2. #162
    when the guy from Blizz state that Lich King would lose against Thunder King 1v1 it was the Thunder King in Chronicle we are talking about, the thunder king from Pandaria don't even compare with his past self

    Azshara has zero feats, I can't give her this fight base on hype, can she be more powerful than Arthas? yes but first she has to prove it, her been more powerful than mannoroth prove nothing here as i can see Lich King easly defeat him

  3. #163
    Azhara wins this one definitely, hands down.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    when the guy from Blizz state that Lich King would lose against Thunder King 1v1 it was the Thunder King in Chronicle we are talking about, the thunder king from Pandaria don't even compare with his past self

    Azshara has zero feats, I can't give her this fight base on hype, can she be more powerful than Arthas? yes but first she has to prove it, her been more powerful than mannoroth prove nothing here as i can see Lich King easly defeat him
    How will the Lich King defeat Mannoroth?

  5. #165
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    How will the Lich King defeat Mannoroth?
    How can Mannoroth defeat the Lich King?

  6. #166
    Explode and kill him.

  7. #167
    mannoroth goes down easily to time travelling orcs :s

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsSpiRo View Post
    Guardians did not get power. Council LENDS power to guardian temporary in order to fight.

    When Azshara was "pre-skip" humans did not even exist... Dude learn lore then argue here..
    I should have been specific.

    Azshara was running on the Well, Guardians got a temporary power up.

    Azshara ain't above the Guardians.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Why are Arthas fans always so blunt? LIGHT? Arthas nearly died because of the plague of the Forsaken, what the hell is the Light?
    I'm blunt but you couldn't understand anything... ok

    The Light, it's that one power mortals can use that usually trumps Death/Fel/Shadow magic. Without it, they usually die. The plague the forsaken made, which is based off the plague the Scourge made... i dont understand what you're getting at here, but yeah it hurt Arthas, but didn't kill him, because he's on a level of god in the death category, meaning his physical form is more immune to things that should kill someone of his size.

    The power of the Scourge? And what prevents Azshara from inviting the army of her friends-Old Gods.
    1st, Scourge would still win, 2nd... what army?Are you imagining some massive arena where all the old god forces and the scourge are teleported to or something? cause that's stupid and is no longer Azshara, but the Old Gods vs Lich King...

    Also with the "what army?" The Old God forces have mostly been populations infiltrated in cata and a bunch of ogres, with very few faceless(there's no dormant massive faceless army). The Nerubians no longer serve the Old Gods and are actually apart of the Scourge, which means what few Qiraji would end up the same. The Mantid are loyal to the Old Gods, but have not been in contact with them and presently their numbers are nothing anymore(one good necromancer goes to their area and raises 1000's of undead )

    And I REPEAT IN THOUSAND TIMES THIS IS A BATTLE OF 1X1
    You didn't state it in the title, the poll or your opening post... but i said Lich King wins in either scenario... but remember, in either scenario, he's still a necromancer and can raise the dead and summon spirits to fight for him...

  10. #170
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen
    And Azshara could make Mannoroth strangle himself, and she became stronger than before.
    Maybe, But I think Arthas would win unless he was ambushed. Or unless there are no corpses around.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    I'm blunt but you couldn't understand anything... ok

    The Light, it's that one power mortals can use that usually trumps Death/Fel/Shadow magic. Without it, they usually die. The plague the forsaken made, which is based off the plague the Scourge made... i dont understand what you're getting at here, but yeah it hurt Arthas, but didn't kill him, because he's on a level of god in the death category, meaning his physical form is more immune to things that should kill someone of his size.


    1st, Scourge would still win, 2nd... what army?Are you imagining some massive arena where all the old god forces and the scourge are teleported to or something? cause that's stupid and is no longer Azshara, but the Old Gods vs Lich King...

    Also with the "what army?" The Old God forces have mostly been populations infiltrated in cata and a bunch of ogres, with very few faceless(there's no dormant massive faceless army). The Nerubians no longer serve the Old Gods and are actually apart of the Scourge, which means what few Qiraji would end up the same. The Mantid are loyal to the Old Gods, but have not been in contact with them and presently their numbers are nothing anymore(one good necromancer goes to their area and raises 1000's of undead )


    You didn't state it in the title, the poll or your opening post... but i said Lich King wins in either scenario... but remember, in either scenario, he's still a necromancer and can raise the dead and summon spirits to fight for him...
    If you think that Arthas is a god, then you do not know the lore .
    If you think that the Scourge is able to stop Deathwing and his whole army of elementals + naga + faceless, then you do not know the lore.
    The plague damaged Arthas. He can be harmed not only by the Light.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    I should have been specific.

    Azshara was running on the Well, Guardians got a temporary power up.

    Azshara ain't above the Guardians.
    Guardian power up was not temporary; before the creation of the Guardians they did use a temporary boost but after a point they permanently invested part of the power of the Council of Tirisfal on each Guardian (which is why they never replaced a rebelious Aegwynn, she still held the mantle of power).

    Concerning how important experience is, Aegwynn who had given up the power of the Guardian was winning against Medivh who had the power of the Guardian, had undergone intense tutoring by his father who was himself an archmage and also contained Sargeras' essence until Sargeras took over and drained the entire region. Skill is very important for the Arcane.

    On the issue of Azshara not having the Well anymore, the Well was the Titans' way of containing the arcane blood of Azeroth pooling over her open wounds left from the death of Y'shaarj. Azshara is now located right at the bottom of the Maelstrom, exactly on top of that wound. When before she was draining diluted power from the Well of Eternity, she can now directly suck on Azeroth's blood, right on top of that wound.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    I should have been specific.

    Azshara was running on the Well, Guardians got a temporary power up.

    Azshara ain't above the Guardians.
    Azshara was running on the well just like every other Night Elf..

    Guardians are nothing without Council members.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Guardian power up was not temporary; before the creation of the Guardians they did use a temporary boost but after a point they permanently invested part of the power of the Council of Tirisfal on each Guardian (which is why they never replaced a rebelious Aegwynn, she still held the mantle of power).

    Concerning how important experience is, Aegwynn who had given up the power of the Guardian was winning against Medivh who had the power of the Guardian, had undergone intense tutoring by his father who was himself an archmage and also contained Sargeras' essence until Sargeras took over and drained the entire region. Skill is very important for the Arcane.

    On the issue of Azshara not having the Well anymore, the Well was the Titans' way of containing the arcane blood of Azeroth pooling over her open wounds left from the death of Y'shaarj. Azshara is now located right at the bottom of the Maelstrom, exactly on top of that wound. When before she was draining diluted power from the Well of Eternity, she can now directly suck on Azeroth's blood, right on top of that wound.
    for Aegwynn, that's simple.

    Aegwynn > Azshara

    that's all up to speculation which smart people won't buy until we actually have some proof of it (the Well part) otherwise every Naga is Lich King tier because of that.

    and tbh, I'm getting tired from this Azshara wank.
    Last edited by DemonHunter18; 2017-07-31 at 08:46 AM.

  15. #175
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    and tbh, I'm getting tired from this Azshara wank.
    It gets tiring reading the same "display of power" reasons after the many times they were busted.

  16. #176
    The Lightbringer DesoPL's Avatar
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    When someone may ask. Hogger vs Lich King?

    This kind of topics is weird and stupid. it is comparing like PC from early 1990 - 1999 to PC what we got now.
    If you are Activision fan boy. Please don't talk to me.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    If you think that Arthas is a god, then you do not know the lore
    Where do you get this from what I said??

    If you think that the Scourge is able to stop Deathwing and his whole army of elementals + naga + faceless, then you do not know the lore.
    Deathwing is dead, Elementals are free of Old God control, Faceless are few in number... And pre Cata, Deathwing would not help her, elementals would not help her...

    But even that said, those are not Azshara forces... you really don't know the lore yourself nor do you know how to make a 1vs1 thread.

    The plague damaged Arthas. He can be harmed not only by the Light.
    You're quite dense, I brought up the power of Light, saying that that's one of the few powers someone can use... not to kill Arthas... but to not be killed by his death magic... and the plague only harming Arthas and not killing or even having any effects on him afterwards, goes to show just how much more powerful his physical body is.

    stop with these bad replies please
    Last edited by MikeBogina; 2017-07-31 at 09:17 AM.

  18. #178
    Azshara will end up being a dungeon boss, just like Ner'zhul

  19. #179
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    If you think that Arthas is a god, then you do not know the lore .
    If you think that the Scourge is able to stop Deathwing and his whole army of elementals + naga + faceless, then you do not know the lore.
    The plague damaged Arthas. He can be harmed not only by the Light.
    Not to menetion "The dead outnumber the living and allways will" certainly applies to the dragons graveyard next to LK (One of the named ones with size Sindragosa). Bye bye Deathwing. DK Arthas wandered thro the faceless like nothing in a weakened state. Naga+ bloodelfs + illidan also got rekt by a weak arthas.
    Reason we don't see undead naga is cause they haven't been given a model yet.
    That plague killed everything .. so that arthas just walked away like he was tired from running pretty much sums up the LK power.. his ability to keep his host alive.

    ARTHAS IS THE HOST NOT THE LICH KING! Stop mistakeing Ner'Zhul for Arthas.
    Can you even imagen if he had a even stronger host? Bolver is most likely a stronger host than Arthas

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsSpiRo View Post
    Azshara was running on the well just like every other Night Elf..

    Guardians are nothing without Council members.
    Not sure the original argument, but I just want to point out that Rhonin who was a mediocre mage at the time of going back, was showing tremendous amount of power, from just being there... he easily was outdoing any nightelf mage and he wasn't even archmage tier at the time. Azshara had an unlimited tap to the well and had been tapping it for 1000's of years(i think, I don't know how long her reign was). And now she no longer has that well, she may have old god amps, but i doubt it since it's more likely Neptulon who created the Naga(they are literally the same as Ragnaros' flamewakers) and it doesn't seem the rest of the naga have any old god powers or appendages...

    Now back to the mages, the Guardians are usually the best mages of the council and Aegwyn was the best they ever had, her natural power as a mage would dwarf rhonin easily and with the power up of a few weaker mages, she was able to defeat legions of demons and the avatar of Sargeras, without the guardian powers, she probably could also kill someone like Mannoroth, but Azshara might not be able to without her power up from the well

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