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  1. #1
    High Overlord Icecat's Avatar
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    Alliance Alliance losing in BGs/Horde Racial Nerf?/Enlistment Bonus Band Aid Fix

    For those who play Horde or otherwise aren't aware, this has been in place for quite awhile;



    I know this might be a sour subject, but my initial reaction to seeing this on my Alliance toon was to just laugh really hard. Ever since templates in unranked BGs, it just seems like Alliance winrate has reached an all time low. Yes, I know it's possible for Alliance to win, and I know that there may be posts below of people saying anecdotes about how they went fucking 8-0 or whatever, to which I'll say this: The winrate of Alliance of BGs has always been historically low (except for IoC and AV), but I frankly haven't seen any stats since Legion's release. Yes this is anecdotal but throughout the many years I've played (except for WoD I guess), My Alliance wins do often feel like flukes and many of my victories on Alliance I have to play my absolute fucking HEART out.

    Are you guys really comfortable with this Enlistment Bonus fix? It doesn't seem to address a possibly more major flaw that Alliance might just be unbalanced? The Human racial has always been a topic of debate, but since its nerfs and with the addition to Honor Talents, the orc racial is arguably better. Aside from this, there was a rather significant buff to Horde Racials in WoD due to their lack of popularity that doesn't seem to have been reverted after the Human racial nerf, which I believe was the major reason that we saw so much Alliance PvP in WoD.

    Look, I don't think that Horde Racials are all that important in unranked battlegrounds obviously, but I just want people to set aside their ego and admit that there is a problem with Alliance in BGs. The Enlistment Bonus is classic band-aid fix but it also implies to me that Blizzard may have accepted the nature that Alliance players may simply be more predisposed to being simply worse at PvP and I'm not as inclined to make such a wide generalization.

    So yeah, I'm curious to know what you guys think, and I'm wildly off base or haven't considered other things, I'm curious to know.

    Source for disparate winrates: http://wow-stats.com/bgwr01.html (but really you could just google anything)
    Last edited by Icecat; 2017-08-22 at 09:59 PM.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Well the alliance loses so much cayse they have too many kids on and aren't well coordinated like how horde are.. that's why you play horde if you wanna do random battlegrounds and ashran.. now arenas alliance can do good at thats just how it is.. maybe if the rotate the battlegroups around some like every 30 days or so that make things very well entertaining.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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  3. #3
    Battlegroups are no longer a thing. Also I can't say my experience is really the same, I played horde for most of my time in wow but recently switched to alliance and have been doing a bg win per day along with towers and skirmish to get my prestige rank up and while I don't have stats on it, I'd say I win about 60-70% of my bg's. Of course part of this may also be due to me playing healer but it really doesn't seem too much of an issue.

    The honor buff is also just an issue of less players, not winrate or anything.

  4. #4
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    In my experience it highly differs. Sometimes I win alot on Horde, sometimes I constantly lose.

    Both factions seem to be riddles with "bad" players, people that just dinged (750 weapons in BG's at 100...) and people that only join to /afk though everything.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    Well the alliance loses so much cayse they have too many kids on and aren't well coordinated like how horde are.. that's why you play horde if you wanna do random battlegrounds and ashran.. now arenas alliance can do good at thats just how it is.. maybe if the rotate the battlegroups around some like every 30 days or so that make things very well entertaining.
    And I know Alliance say the same about Horde.

    Guess there is just kids playing the game. : p

  6. #6
    There are no Battlegroups.

    Havent been since before WoD.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icecat View Post
    I know that there may be posts below of people saying anecdotes about how they went fucking 8-0 or whatever, to which I'll say this
    Proceeds to post anecdotal evidence of his own losses. Good job dude

  8. #8
    High Overlord Icecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Proceeds to post anecdotal evidence of his own losses. Good job dude
    I also cited the win/loss statistics of faction winrates in battlegrounds.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Icecat View Post
    I also cited the win/loss statistics of faction winrates in battlegrounds.
    Where? I see no percentage win rates anywhere in your QQfest

  10. #10
    High Overlord Icecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsav1 View Post
    Where? I see no percentage win rates anywhere in your QQfest
    I assumed that for anyone posting on this forum that they would have been seen before or were just common knowledge. Here's one example: http://wow-stats.com/bgwr01.html

    It also seems prejudiced to refer to my OP as a QQ fest. For one, my main isn't even Alliance, and I just mean to bring up why this might be a systemic issue and how it could be addressed be Blizzard.
    Last edited by Icecat; 2017-08-22 at 04:50 PM.

  11. #11
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    I really see no reason to complain. You are getting much more honor thanks to that as alliance than if you would play on horde. If anything it made me que as ally much more often for much faster prestige grind.

  12. #12
    Alliance won every BG for all of WoD because of alliance racials. The seesaw of blizzard balance continues.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Icecat View Post
    I also cited the win/loss statistics of faction winrates in battlegrounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Icecat View Post
    I assumed that for anyone posting on this forum that they would have been seen before or were just common knowledge.
    Wait, what? Cited =/= common knowledge, assumption or not

    Moving on, your post just comes off as not so much QQ but more uneducated "DURR HERE'S A THING DURRRR", unless that is QQ idk. As others have said, the enlistment bonus is for faction ratio imbalance, not win/lose balance. Basically, whichever faction has the fast (or instant) BG queue times is also going to have the enlistment bonus. The faction with the slower queue in turn gets access to Merc Mode (queuing as the opposite faction) which in turn gives them the enlistment bonus.

    Least on my server, most Horde queue as Alliance cause it's <1 minute queues vs 5< minute queues and the honor bonus plus it's fun to queue as the otherside and listen to all the Alliance shit talk Horde (and funner still to join in!)

    So, win ratios are all good and fun but are skewed by the fact that there's always going to be at least a few Horde queue'd as alliance in your group, I've seen about a 50/50 win rate outside of a couple outliers (looking at you AV, which should be blacklisted as well as IoC by all Horde players at this point)

    I say next time you're losing, don't look at it as "ALLIANCE SUCK LOL", take a look at the team makeup. Normally games that are a blowout are ones where one side has a decked out healer or two and the otherside doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willhouse View Post
    Chill,wow classic is gonna last 2 months top once ppl see how horrid it was,theres gonna be 10k ppl online across all classic realms within 2 months.Meanwhile i'm preparing my "i told you so.." speech XD

  14. #14
    What would give PvP some fresh air would be getting rid of the language barrier.
    I remember a time where players from every server could play together due to a bug or something. That time was the best pvp experience i ever made in wow.
    Of course you got the random "Kraut, weißwurst, bier" insults, but once they checked "hey they don't play different than us" you had some funny and entertaining bgs.
    Since english is teached in school there is no reason to keep the old system.

    If someone doesn't understand, i mean as an example let players from EU-Antonidas(german) and EU-Silvermoon(english) random queue into the same bg.
    With building premades it is even now possible but it would be better for everybody in random.
    With such a system the faction imbalance could be a little bit negated. All this talk in every media about coming together and be equal and we still are separated in world of warcraft.
    I don't know why but when i won random bgs it was with an premade group of a whole lot of 2 people in the group(me included, that means me and a other dude) and the lead came from an english realm. When BG win weekly is try it yourself. I don't want to say the other realms are bad but statistically i won more bgs in an english group vs other language realms.

    Ps: I started as horde in late bc and played that toon until first few months of mop. I have on that toon a over 70% winchance in random bgs as mostly solo (sometimes duo) queue. With wod i switched to alliance because of reallife friends. we all know wod was the alliance high time and that toon also has a over 60% winchance. If i would have played many bgs in legion that number would be significantly lower.
    Last edited by Luhmina; 2017-08-22 at 09:16 PM.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Icecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparklelord View Post
    I say next time you're losing, don't look at it as "ALLIANCE SUCK LOL", take a look at the team makeup. Normally games that are a blowout are ones where one side has a decked out healer or two and the otherside doesn't.
    Healer balance has been consistent in my matchmaking (as an aside, the few games I've played without healers are vastly more fun). As for "decked out", are you referring to gear? Because with scaling templates, that's no longer a thing. I do understand now that the enlistment bonus is in place for faction imbalance and queue times but the difference in winrates is still worth talking about, right?

    Like... right? What is the meaning of the disparity? Are we really going to ignore that there might be some reason for this or are we just going to accept it as a community and not think about it? Judging by the responses in this thread, I'm feeling like that answer is a resounding yes.

    I can't be the only person in this community that is at least interested about what kind of decisions, whether they be mechanical or strictly aesthetic, may have contributed to Alliance under-performing in unranked BGs. I'm incredulous to believe that I'm seriously the only one that is curious about why that would be.
    Last edited by Icecat; 2017-08-22 at 10:04 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Icecat View Post
    Healer balance has been consistent in my matchmaking (as an aside, the few games I've played without healers are vastly more fun). As for "decked out", are you referring to gear? Because with scaling templates, that's no longer a thing. I do understand now that the enlistment bonus is in place for faction imbalance and queue times but the difference in winrates is still worth talking about, right?

    Like... right? What is the meaning of the disparity? Are we really going to ignore that there might be some reason for this or are we just going to accept it as a community and not think about it? Judging by the responses in this thread, I'm feeling like that answer is a resounding yes.

    I can't be the only person in this community that is at least interested about what kind of decisions, whether they be mechanical or strictly aesthetic, may have contributed to Alliance under-performing in unranked BGs. I'm incredulous to believe that I'm seriously the only one that is curious about why that would be.
    A) so you had equal amounts of healing done with an equal amount of healers or?
    B) Gear still matters just not as much, educate yourself. But by decked out I meant geared+good. You can't compare a trash can in greens to a 940 rbg hero.
    C) is it worth talking about? Something that's ALWAYS been a part of the game and you were just too dense to notice? Unless of course you're just extremely new and didn't know.
    D) you wanna talk about how exclusively Alliance won AV for years?
    E) Again, you can't just assume that Alliance are losing with the merc mode system in place. It's entirely possible (though very unlikely) that there are BGs that are 100% horde, 50% of them as Alliance.
    So again, it's not just alliance. I mean I couldn't help but notice you completely ignored Merc mode in both your original post and your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willhouse View Post
    Chill,wow classic is gonna last 2 months top once ppl see how horrid it was,theres gonna be 10k ppl online across all classic realms within 2 months.Meanwhile i'm preparing my "i told you so.." speech XD

  17. #17
    High Overlord Icecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparklelord View Post
    A) so you had equal amounts of healing done with an equal amount of healers or?
    B) Gear still matters just not as much, educate yourself. But by decked out I meant geared+good. You can't compare a trash can in greens to a 940 rbg hero.
    C) is it worth talking about? Something that's ALWAYS been a part of the game and you were just too dense to notice? Unless of course you're just extremely new and didn't know.
    D) you wanna talk about how exclusively Alliance won AV for years?
    E) Again, you can't just assume that Alliance are losing with the merc mode system in place. It's entirely possible (though very unlikely) that there are BGs that are 100% horde, 50% of them as Alliance.
    So again, it's not just alliance. I mean I couldn't help but notice you completely ignored Merc mode in both your original post and your reply.
    I want to point out that I'm the only one in this conversation that doesn't dip into bouts of vitriol. It's frankly really hard for me to justify replying to you when there isn't a mutual level of respect.

    Yes, gear matters to a substantially small degree. Are you trying to say that the maybe 4% power bonus that one character has over another is a major contribution to Horde having a 10% higher winrate? Merc mode was something I overlooked in my original post where I also explicitly said "[if I] haven't considered other things, I'm curious to know" and I am better off for it. With the matter of the enlistment bonus now properly debunked, since it was a matter of participation, there is still the issue of Alliance being (almost always) underperforming against Horde, even moreso in this expansion. This is clearly not something that matters to you or intrigues you in the slightest; you've made that abundantly clear. Are you trying to get me to admit that it doesn't matter? Because it's still an aspect of the community that is interesting to me.

    We talk a lot on this forum about ways that the game could be made better. AV and IoC design being inherently in Alliance favor is a good example of that. I guess I just don't see the need to get so defensive over this.

  18. #18
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    There is no major imbalance between Horde and Alliance racials. Escape Artist, Stoneform, Every Man For Himself and Shadowmeld are very strong.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BonesDeLarge View Post
    There is no major imbalance between Horde and Alliance racials. Escape Artist, Stoneform, Every Man For Himself and Shadowmeld are very strong.
    I play horde and I disagree in part.

    The main problem IMO is that right now some classes are ridiculously strong with very low skill cap, namely warriors, rogues and DH. Both DH and Warrior have far better racials as horde.

    I think overall racials are fine, the class balance is what is broken.
    I may not be an overachiever, but my Druid is richer than half of Venezuela.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer therealstegblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icecat View Post
    I want to point out that I'm the only one in this conversation that doesn't dip into bouts of vitriol. It's frankly really hard for me to justify replying to you when there isn't a mutual level of respect.
    This is what you get for trying to discuss something on MMOChampion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BonesDeLarge View Post
    There is no major imbalance between Horde and Alliance racials. Escape Artist, Stoneform, Every Man For Himself and Shadowmeld are very strong.
    Shadowmeld and Stoneform have their niche uses, but Escape Artist is just a shitty version of Every Man For Himself (even if it does have a whopping ONE MINUTE LESS COOLDOWN111). Every Man For Himself, in a game as stun-centric as WoW, is much more useful in general situations than any of the other Alliance racials. There simply isn't a contest. Yes, Shadowmeld is good for dropping targetting or for guarding a flag in a BG. Yes, Stoneform is good for dropping bleeds off of you (especially when you want to get back into Stealth or something). But these are niche uses.

    While I can agree that for the longest time, players have mis-valued certain racials (Arcane Torrent has been the defacto best PvP racial in the game for years and only just now have people started to realize how fucking broken an extra on-demand interrupt/silence is, especially for classes like Warrior or Rogue), there's certainly next to no argument you could really make that racials like Shadowmeld are on par with Every Man For Himself.

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