"Auto includes" being used as an excuse to nerf cards yet again?

[Jester Joe]

Innervate is cancer would love to see it flat out removed from game. UI has its own issues but running into it on Turn 5 because of innervate causes it to be much more problematic. 10 mana cost cards should be strong but not when you can bust them out that early.

You can't run it turn 5 with just innervates, because that would be 9 mana, not 10.

Coin+2 innervates, yes, but even then, that wouldn't be ideal I'd say because chances are, your hand is still decently full, and you don't want to flood it too much.

[Deleted]

You can't run it turn 5 with just innervates, because that would be 9 mana, not 10.

Coin+2 innervates, yes, but even then, that wouldn't be ideal I'd say because chances are, your hand is still decently full, and you don't want to flood it too much.

you can get it on turn 5 due wildgrowth and jade blossems.

[Socialhealer]

Depends on draws. If you draw into Innervate and Spreading Plague, the aggro deck should just concede.

unless it's aggro shaman with a devolve for just those situations, then you concede.

[Jester Joe]

you can get it on turn 5 due wildgrowth and jade blossems.

That's still not with just Innervates though technically, so it's not an issue caused by innervate.

[Mahourai]

I doubt Infestation is any kind of problem as it's just a huge value bomb. The turn you resolve it it's little better than Firelands Portal. Any situation where Infestation is problematic is due to cheating it out early. If you nerf Infestation you will simply start saying the same things the next time Druid gets another toy to cheat out early, until eventually everyone realizes the problem is cheating shit out early.

[Pantalaimon]

I smell a Jade Druid....

Don't even have Aya, nor do I play standard, so nope :P Plus, not wanting things like Swipe (a class board clear that isn't even broken & punishes aggro decks) and WG (which is essential to Ramp Druid) does not have that much to do with Jade Druids, but try again <3

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be fine with them spending all their mana but 2, to then get to use that 4 mana advantage at the end however.

The problem with that though is it tries to make Druid into more of a tempo oriented class, as opposed to a ramp one. Take Big Druid for example, have 2 more mana to use after expending 2 mana doesn't exactly make ramping possible when your deck is full of higher cost minions. The change to Innervate you are suggesting is better for mid-rangey tempo swings with putting down 2-3 four or five drops in one turn.

- - - Updated - - -

Another thing to think about is why Team 5 wants to nerf one of Druids only board clears, yet they keep chucking new ones at Warlock every other expansion?

[Kronik85]

Not exactly sure why people keep talking about cheating out UI being the problem with UI. The problem with UI is it draws 5 fucking cards, the turn it's played is irrelevant since it's the reload factor that's utterly abhorrent . Remove that aspect from UI and it's a fairly balanced card.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Not exactly sure why people keep talking about cheating out UI being the problem with UI. The problem with UI is it draws 5 fucking cards, the turn it's played is irrelevant since it's the reload factor that's utterly abhorrent . Remove that aspect from UI and it's a fairly balanced card.

could not have said it better

[Mahourai]

Not exactly sure why people keep talking about cheating out UI being the problem with UI.

Because that's the problem.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Because that's the problem.

such a shame that you stopped reading right after the first sentence no-one has a problem with Ultimate Infestation being a "value bomb", all 10 mana epics should be value bombs - the problem is what a guaranteed draw 5 cards does specifically for a class that historically has always been given a choice between ramping or drawing cards, with the downside of ramping being that you give up board presence and empty your hand to get ahead in mana

if you want to give every class everything, then whats the point of having classes in the first place?

[Mahourai]

such a shame that you stopped reading right after the first sentence

It's been discussed multiple times in this thread why Infestation is not the issue, there's no need to rehash my posts from the long-ago world of five whole posts up.

[Dizzeeyooo]

It's been discussed multiple times in this thread why Infestation is not the issue, there's no need to rehash my posts from the long-ago world of five whole posts up.

the majority of this thread, including the OP is pointing at Ultimate Infestation and Swarming Plague as the problems with druid right now, while your argument is that Ultimate Infestation by itself is "little better than Firelands Portal", and the only issue is when you can play "firelands portal" early with Innervate therefore Innervate is the problem, ignoring the point that you can play the card just as early with Wild Growth and Jade Blossom

[Mahourai]

the majority of this thread, including the OP is pointing at Ultimate Infestation and Swarming Plague as the problems with druid right now

I don't think they are.

while your argument is that Ultimate Infestation by itself is "little better than Firelands Portal"

The shameless removal of context here should embarrass you.

and the only issue is when you can play "firelands portal" early with Innervate therefore Innervate is the problem, ignoring the point that you can play the card just as early with Wild Growth and Jade Blossom

I didn't "ignore" Wild Growth and in fact discuss it in my first post. Maybe you should actually read the posts you're replying to instead of filling your post with condescending emotes.

It's very difficult to argue that Spreading Plague and Infestation are the key problem cards when the strongest Druid deck - aggro - doesn't even run them. The commonality in the busted Druid lists is, you guessed it, Innervate.

[Dizzeeyooo]

The shameless removal of context here should embarrass you.

I doubt Infestation is any kind of problem as it's just a huge value bomb. The turn you resolve it it's little better than Firelands Portal. Any situation where Infestation is problematic is due to cheating it out early

what context was removed?

[Mahourai]

what context was removed?

You removed "the turn you resolve it", obviously.

[Kronik85]

It's very difficult to argue that Spreading Plague and Infestation are the key problem cards when the strongest Druid deck - aggro - doesn't even run them. The commonality in the busted Druid lists is, you guessed it, Innervate.

Aggro Druid isn't the strongest Druid deck, so your focus is off. The meta is basically FU Jade so whilst your better off playing Aggro atm it isn't a stronger deck as such, just a better choice in the current meta because Jade is so overwhelming.

[Hollerino]

LESS QQ and more Pirate Warrior into legend. EZ PZ BOYS.

[Mahourai]

Aggro Druid isn't the strongest Druid deck, so your focus is off.

Aggro Druid has no weak matchups, while Jade Druid does - one of which is Aggro Druid. Of course part of the reason is the overwhelming presence of Jade Druid in the meta, but that was true even before it was actually good - it was the most played deck in the final pre-Frozen Throne meta despite kind of sucking.

Even if you rate Jade Druid higher, the fact that there's also an oppressive tier 1 druid deck that doesn't play the supposed problem cards should give you pause.

[Kronik85]

Even if you rate Jade Druid higher, the fact that there's also an oppressive tier 1 druid deck that doesn't play the supposed problem cards should give you pause.

Not really no. It doesn't play Wild Growth or Swipe either both of which T5 are looking at. If Aggro Druid intended to play to turn 10 it would play UI but since that isn't the game plan it's not exactly relevant.

Aggro Druid is also unfavoured vs Murloc Pally, Pirate and Priest so it's got it's share of weaker match ups.

[Mahourai]

Not really no. It doesn't play Wild Growth or Swipe either both of which T5 are looking at.

Yes, because these cards are fair. The commonality is Innervate. That is my argument. I already posted that Swipe shouldn't be looked at at all and that Wild Growth is fair and historically has only been abused with Auctioneer.

If Aggro Druid intended to play to turn 10 it would play UI but since that isn't the game plan it's not exactly relevant.

You're right, the hypothetical you just brought up is bizarre and irrelevant.

Aggro Druid is also unfavoured vs Murloc Pally, Pirate and Priest so it's got it's share of weaker match ups.

According to Vicious's data Aggro Druid's winrate against these decks respectively is 52%, 57%, and 49.5%/51% depending on which priest list you're looking at. In no way are any of these numbers weak matchups. In fact none of them are even unfavorable at all. 49.5% against the resurrection priest list is an even split you can't really call unfavorable.