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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    I actually value that your main gameplay loop is mostly complete by level 20 as opposed to FFXIV classes feeling barebones until level 50 and even then lacking pretty important mechanics. But yeah, that's actually up to preferences.
    Yeah it is up to preference, but without changes in game play or at least some new abilities to make you FEEL more powerful it doesn't feel like there's any character growth. It gets a bit boring when grinding through the levels when there's nothing new or interesting to look forward to.

    Yeah, 1-4-1-2-3-1-2-3 with Jump on CD and Life Surge before Full Thrust, the epitome of interesting rotation.
    As if, 1-1-1, PROC 2, 1-1-3-1-1...PROC 2, OH! AoE...hit 4 now! is any better

    The proc makes it not so scripted, like FFXIV seems, but that's not interesting either.

    You're analogy before about being able to macro it in FFXIV also applies to WoW. It wouldn't be optimal in either game to do that as you lose the nuance, but you'd be performing at above average if you could do that in WoW.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    You know Final Fantasy has been a series since 1987, has sold 144 million units across the series and has a much bigger audience than Warcraft right?

    Thats like claiming people are drinking Pepsi to spite Crown City Cola.
    No one said FF series, i said FFXIV.

    Stop pretending the people that play FF on consoles for the last 25 years are in any way all FFXIV players.

    I dont know a single FFXIV player IRL (And because of net cafe culture and PC business i know a lot of people that play games) i know a lot of people with a PS that played some sort of FF over the years, hell i am one that played the one with the Lightning girl on PS3 which i bought at a period of weakness, but not one of them probably even knows FFXIV exists, mostly because Greek console players are all completely retarded but thats another discussion.

    I even tried to sell FFXIV to 2 friends that asked me what they could play as a new MMO, guys that are half-weeb and play every single shitty asian mmo out there, and even they werent interested (I assume cause its not F2P, cheapskates :P), despite playing every single anime oriented game on consoles/PC for the last 10 years+.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-07-04 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    No one said FF series, i said FFXIV.

    Stop pretending the people that play FF on consoles for the last 25 years are in any way all FFXIV players.

    I dont know a single FFXIV player IRL (And because of net cafe culture and PC business i know a lot of people that play games) i know a lot of people with a PS that played some sort of FF over the years, hell i am one that played the one with the Lightning girl on PS3 which i bought at a period of weakness, but not one of them probably even knows FFXIV exists, mostly because Greek console players are all completely retarded but thats another discussion.

    I even tried to sell FFXIV to 2 friends that asked me what they could play as a new MMO, guys that are half-weeb and play every single shitty asian mmo out there, and even they werent interested (I assume cause its not F2P, cheapskates :P), despite playing every single anime oriented game on consoles/PC for the last 10 years+.
    FFXIV is part of the FF series so I don't know what the hell you're on about.

    I know a handful of people that play FFXIV IRL and I live in a fairly small town in Texas. Also, if you're saying the XIII is the only other FF game you've played then I'm sorry. You played the worst one out of any of them.

    Also, I don't get why people refer to XIV as a weeb game or a game for people that love anime. Sure, there's some of those themes added in to the game because that's the culture that it comes from but the story elements are so much more mature than anything in WoW even. I got tired of going through the same damn story every fucking expansion in WoW. I'm tired of the Alliance vs Horde war that never goes anywhere and the same plot points that play out because Blizzard's story writers have no imagination or ability to tell a coherent story in game.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    No one said FF series, i said FFXIV.
    What do you think the XIV in the name means?
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    As if, 1-1-1, PROC 2, 1-1-3-1-1...PROC 2, OH! AoE...hit 4 now! is any better

    The proc makes it not so scripted, like FFXIV seems, but that's not interesting either.

    You're analogy before about being able to macro it in FFXIV also applies to WoW. It wouldn't be optimal in either game to do that as you lose the nuance, but you'd be performing at above average if you could do that in WoW.
    Well, they're not wrong, though. Some classes in XIV - Dragoon in particular, since that's the example here - really do suffer from feeling like they're straight out of 2008. Straight up rotation, no resource management, no procs to react to. Just the rotation.

    XIV's more recent jobs are actually much more interesting, though. So people have options on how they want to play, at least.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, they're not wrong, though. Some classes in XIV - Dragoon in particular, since that's the example here - really do suffer from feeling like they're straight out of 2008. Straight up rotation, no resource management, no procs to react to. Just the rotation.

    XIV's more recent jobs are actually much more interesting, though. So people have options on how they want to play, at least.
    I'm not disagreeing with that specifically, just saying that the longer rotation of a class like Dragoon, even with all if it's shortcomings is more fun to play than a max 4 button rotation/priority in WoW. That's partly because there are more buttons to push, but I think the combat itself just feels better when your character is doing more than 1-2 attacks all the time.

    Completely agree with you on the more current classes.

    Dancer specifically turns the entire argument on it's head because of how proc based it is. There is no fixed rotation for it. So yes, people have more (and better) choices now so the WoW vs FFXIV argument this line of discussion was based on isn't really accurate anymore.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, they're not wrong, though. Some classes in XIV - Dragoon in particular, since that's the example here - really do suffer from feeling like they're straight out of 2008. Straight up rotation, no resource management, no procs to react to. Just the rotation.

    XIV's more recent jobs are actually much more interesting, though. So people have options on how they want to play, at least.
    PLD is the same way, super strict rigid rotation. It's super freaking boring. If it didn't have the sexiest animations/gfx and had positionals I'd never touch it despite it being my favorite aesthetic.

    DRG redeems itself though at later levels despite its rigid rotation.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    PLD is the same way, super strict rigid rotation. It's super freaking boring. If it didn't have the sexiest animations/gfx and had positionals I'd never touch it despite it being my favorite aesthetic.

    DRG redeems itself though at later levels despite its rigid rotation.
    DRG and PLD are easily my favorite classes in terms of design, animations, gear, effects, everything.

    But they're also the most boring for me to play.

    'tis truly the greatest of struggles.

  9. #669
    People actually did this? Damn. That’s like going from eating in a 5 star restaurant to McDonalds.

  10. #670
    Bloodsail Admiral Nasuuna's Avatar
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    im just seeing how many people quit at 30 lol.

    If my friends didnt push me to get past it, I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am

    pre 30 and the pre SB level 50 MSQ I fucking hated

    Rest has been fantastic

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuuna View Post
    im just seeing how many people quit at 30 lol.

    If my friends didnt push me to get past it, I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am

    pre 30 and the pre SB level 50 MSQ I fucking hated

    Rest has been fantastic
    Yeah, its unfortunate.

    This topic comes up literally daily in either NovNet or in Discord. New-ish players saying, "When do I get to HW? Does this get any better or should I just quit? These quests are so boring."

    Or, "When do I get more than two buttons? It's been 30 levels of this."

    The new player experience is pretty awful, but it always seems like veteran players refuse to acknowledge new player concerns. The returning player experience isn't always great either, but at least they kinda know what to expect each time.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    People actually did this? Damn. That’s like going from eating in a 5 star restaurant to McDonalds.
    And what is your rationale for such a statement?

    Without any reasoning behind such a ridiculous statement all you're doing is baiting.

    Both games have loads of things to be praised and critiqued for.

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, its unfortunate.

    This topic comes up literally daily in either NovNet or in Discord. New-ish players saying, "When do I get to HW? Does this get any better or should I just quit? These quests are so boring."

    Or, "When do I get more than two buttons? It's been 30 levels of this."

    The new player experience is pretty awful, but it always seems like veteran players refuse to acknowledge new player concerns. The returning player experience isn't always great either, but at least they kinda know what to expect each time.
    its less about acknowledging concerns and more pointing out the reality of the game itself, it gets better later on and the quests of 30 and post 50 ARR quest are not actually that bad at all. I started in the beginning of SB for example and heard about the ARR questing and guess what? I just did it anyway enjoyed most of it for it was and then continued on to HW, like HW wouldn't have 1/4 the impact it did without the end of ARR and all its buildup.

    and to the point of "when do I get more then two buttons?" that question is answered with later lvls, no matter what mmorpg or rpg in general lvling and getting new stuff in general is always end game, if you don't like this type why even bother with mmos?

    All of these massive changes like making MSQ not required for anything or letting us skip expacs without paying anything are what made things like WoW for example just dull as shit to play as a new player, where you go from cata Garrosh being Warchief in one zone to Voljin warchief in another to slyvanas in another theres no investment theres no reason to care anything about the game you sub for a month and then drop it hard.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And what is your rationale for such a statement?

    Without any reasoning behind such a ridiculous statement all you're doing is baiting.

    Both games have loads of things to be praised and critiqued for.
    Just people who refuse to see all the issues with WoW honestly and come into bait others.

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuuna View Post
    im just seeing how many people quit at 30 lol.

    If my friends didnt push me to get past it, I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am

    pre 30 and the pre SB level 50 MSQ I fucking hated

    Rest has been fantastic
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, its unfortunate.

    This topic comes up literally daily in either NovNet or in Discord. New-ish players saying, "When do I get to HW? Does this get any better or should I just quit? These quests are so boring."

    Or, "When do I get more than two buttons? It's been 30 levels of this."

    The new player experience is pretty awful, but it always seems like veteran players refuse to acknowledge new player concerns. The returning player experience isn't always great either, but at least they kinda know what to expect each time.
    Agreed. The early game gameplay is atrociously slow and if the story isn't practically gripping you by the balls and you're super invested in it, it's really difficult to be satisfied with the experience up until HW. There are a few more egregious parts:

    1) Levels 1~10 where you're barely leaving the town with very little combat with a shit ton of fetch quests and introductory dialogue explaining basics
    2) Lack of tutorial/ descriptions for pretty basic stuff, like how to reply to someone in /tell or how to navigate the map
    3) Level ~30 where you're doing the ridiculous fetch quests just before Titan...and doing a dungeon to literally get some stinky cheese for a feast.
    4) The level 50+ questing between ARR and HW. So.Many.Fetch Quests.

    And I hate saying it as an option because it's a copout and a deterrent, but that's why they have story skip and level boost potions. You can skp the really bad parts of the game if you want if you're willing to pay. I just wish there was a way to get a streamlined version without having to pay extra.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    its less about acknowledging concerns and more pointing out the reality of the game itself, it gets better later on and the quests of 30 and post 50 ARR quest are not actually that bad at all. I started in the beginning of SB for example and heard about the ARR questing and guess what? I just did it anyway enjoyed most of it for it was and then continued on to HW, like HW wouldn't have 1/4 the impact it did without the end of ARR and all its buildup.

    and to the point of "when do I get more then two buttons?" that question is answered with later lvls, no matter what mmorpg or rpg in general lvling and getting new stuff in general is always end game, if you don't like this type why even bother with mmos?

    All of these massive changes like making MSQ not required for anything or letting us skip expacs without paying anything are what made things like WoW for example just dull as shit to play as a new player, where you go from cata Garrosh being Warchief in one zone to Voljin warchief in another to slyvanas in another theres no investment theres no reason to care anything about the game you sub for a month and then drop it hard.
    This is what I mean, though. Newbies get dismissive replies like this and they're just gonna drop the game altogether. It's especially bad because most of what you're saying isn't even true.

    No, most games don't make you go through so many levels pressing 1212121212 forever.

    No, we're not talking about making MSQ not required or something drastic.

    "Why even bother with MMOs?" Wow, that's super helpful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Agreed. The early game gameplay is atrociously slow and if the story isn't practically gripping you by the balls and you're super invested in it, it's really difficult to be satisfied with the experience up until HW. There are a few more egregious parts:

    1) Levels 1~10 where you're barely leaving the town with very little combat with a shit ton of fetch quests and introductory dialogue explaining basics
    2) Lack of tutorial/ descriptions for pretty basic stuff, like how to reply to someone in /tell or how to navigate the map
    3) Level ~30 where you're doing the ridiculous fetch quests just before Titan...and doing a dungeon to literally get some stinky cheese for a feast.
    4) The level 50+ questing between ARR and HW. So.Many.Fetch Quests.

    And I hate saying it as an option because it's a copout and a deterrent, but that's why they have story skip and level boost potions. You can skp the really bad parts of the game if you want if you're willing to pay. I just wish there was a way to get a streamlined version without having to pay extra.
    Yep, it really, really could be improved for new players.

    At the very least I find that acknowledging their complaints and their validity and assuring them that it gets better often motivates them a little. Usually though - especially in NovNet - it's just vets shouting them down and chasing them off with comments like, "It's a story based game! Don't like it? Then quit!" and it's not helpful at all.

  17. #677
    Brewmaster bloodwulf's Avatar
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    As someone who has played both, and quit both. Here is my perspective, lead with my experience.

    WOW:

    Experience
    Played on and off since 2006 (currently not playing "retail" wow).
    Reason Quit
    Quit cause BFA was bad, and Ion is bad for the game. Too much RNG, story fragmentation. Classes don't really have any distinction anymore.
    Things I liked
    I enjoyed combat and dungeons and raid, and will pretty much always enjoy those.

    FFXIV:
    Experience
    Played briefly prior to ARR. Played again after ARR for 2 months, played again recently right before newest expansion, hit level cap on 2 jobs.
    Reason Quit
    Quit cause the quest experience is not good if you are looking for something outside of forced conversations and "cinematics". Quit cause the slog to level cap is so long that i literally could not pay others (i tried to buy and pay for game time for 3 people) to go through it. I boosted to get past it. Combat is also way too slow. Hit cap on dragoon (most rigid inflexible rotation i have seen) and Bard (significant improvement over dragoon). Also forcing players to play through years old expacks to participate with current players is a TERRIBLE design.
    Things I liked
    Beautiful game, and the job system is awesome if it did not take so long to get to cap. Best dressing room game I have seen. Golden Saucer is fun. The random roleless dungeon was fun. Some of the raids were cool visually.

    I liked both games, and both games have a place in the industry. Both games have significant weakness as well though. Ill still probably someday go back to both of them.
    " PC- i7-7700k, MSI 1070, 16gig DDR4 @ 3200MHz, Samsung Evo Pro 850 @ 250gb, Adata SSD @ 250gb, Seagate Barracuda @ 1tb.

    I also own all the consoles and enjoy all of them (except the Wii U, that is trash).
    Proud member of the Gaming MasterRace.

  18. #678
    I've played both and quit both at different times, for different reasons.

    WOW:

    Pretty much my first MMO and I have played it pretty consistently since patch 1.06 (Or whenever BWL was introduced). I've taken longer and longer breaks each expansion and BFA has pretty much done me in. Most of my friends still play, I met my husband playing this game (we've been married 7 years). I have a lot of love for the game in general, but it reminds me of YA Fantasy Book. Might be fun and fast to read but there aren't many layers there.

    FF14:

    The only other MMO that's stuck despite me playing and trying many. Has some clunky gameplay and can be maddening to follow the MSQ, but I care a lot about the characters, my character and the story as a result of my time spent with it. Usually, my main complaints are just how slow the battle system feels after coming from spammy WoW. Reminds me of a slow build fantasy series like Wheel of Time or Malazan. It feels plodding in places and then all of the sudden amazing stuff happens. It gets extra points from me because I love the job system and am a Final Fantasy fan in general. It speaks to me on a lot of nostalgia levels from years of console RPG love.

    Right now, I'm making my way through Heavensward content in FF14 and loving every second of it. I'm fatigued at the moment because of BFA and its systems so I'm not going to play again until the game feels better. BFA has been a huge let down for me in almost every aspect of the game except for the environment design. Just a massive dropped ball in my opinion, which is not to say I think the game is garbage or not worthwhile, I think it's still doing its YA Fantasy thing very well, I'm just not in the mood for that feeling right now.
    Last edited by Lahkesis; 2019-07-11 at 09:14 PM.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    This is what I mean, though. Newbies get dismissive replies like this and they're just gonna drop the game altogether. It's especially bad because most of what you're saying isn't even true.

    No, most games don't make you go through so many levels pressing 1212121212 forever.

    No, we're not talking about making MSQ not required or something drastic.

    "Why even bother with MMOs?" Wow, that's super helpful.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yep, it really, really could be improved for new players.

    At the very least I find that acknowledging their complaints and their validity and assuring them that it gets better often motivates them a little. Usually though - especially in NovNet - it's just vets shouting them down and chasing them off with comments like, "It's a story based game! Don't like it? Then quit!" and it's not helpful at all.
    except that most games do make you go through doing 1/2 buttons the whole time for many lvls, heck some mmos pride themselves on minimal buttons like GW2 where the differences come from weps of masteries and not the buttons or amount themselves. RPGs make you either upgrade spells that do the same things with limited slots in which you can use the spells etc.

    Also yes plenty of newbies want the MSQ not required so they can skip it all get to SHB by mindlessly grinding and then getting to endgame without doing shit, its a very common thing and thats just not what FF14 is if you want that go play WoW or something else.

    "why even bother with mmos" is very helpful MMOs unless they change the added thing to them don't change that much ever.

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    except that most games do make you go through doing 1/2 buttons the whole time for many lvls, heck some mmos pride themselves on minimal buttons like GW2 where the differences come from weps of masteries and not the buttons or amount themselves
    The minimal amount of buttons in GW2 is 16 or so (2 weapons x 5 + 5 utilities + class skill), so that's serious overexaggeration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    Also yes plenty of newbies want the MSQ not required so they can skip it all get to SHB by mindlessly grinding and then getting to endgame without doing shit, its a very common thing and thats just not what FF14 is if you want that go play WoW or something else.
    You think that teleporting left and right takes some serious effort other than testing your patience?
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

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