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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    The minimal amount of buttons in GW2 is 16 or so (2 weapons x 5 + 5 utilities + class skill), so that's serious overexaggeration.


    You think that teleporting left and right takes some serious effort other than testing your patience?
    takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen, and GW again bases itself on minimal buttons, having the basic 9 buttons is soo very little for a mmo its insane.

    Or heck spamming palace of the dead, if something like palace of the dead existed in WoW getting full 120s across the board would be done in under a week for many people and thats casually.

  2. #682
    I see the more buttons = more interesting crowd is still around. FFXIV's systems are clunky. Animation lock abounds, especially on casters, and most jobs are just push buttons in order. Push buttons in order is never interesting no matter how many buttons there are. Crafting and gathering are way more interesting, but you have to get through the bad combat to do it.

    Most jobs play terribly before max level because they're designed around max level only. Instead of just scaling your stats down when you get crammed in a low level dungeon, they make you use whatever 2 buttons you have at that level and rearrange your bars to do it. It's incredibly annoying, but the devs made dungeons required to progress(as in you cannot go to the next zone any way for any reason,) and the game would die fast if they didn't heavily incentivize players to redo it, so people muddle through and claim it's some kind of great game design for some arcane reason. Oh, and at max level, I hope you enjoy doing the same 4 bosses for 3 months, because that's all the game has for you.

    The systems design is also awful. That's a legacy cost of previous monumental failures, but that doesn't make the way the game runs any less bad. There are probably a hundred UI things that are just annoying for no reason. Like not being able to rearrange your inventory with a vendor open, and not being able to switch the slots rings are equipped to without unequipping one.

    The gearing is mostly less interesting than WoW. The biggest choice you have to make is "hit that breakpoint, then meld something else"

    I enjoy going back to FFXIV every so often, but the fighting parts of the game are a chore to be done before you can get to the only interesting parts of the game, which are crafting and gathering. If you're looking for anything other than just more WoW(but messier) besides that, you're going to be disappointed.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen

    Or heck spamming palace of the dead, if something like palace of the dead existed in WoW getting full 120s across the board would be done in under a week for many people and thats casually.
    Spamming current level dungeon at least teaches your rotation, what does spamming LMB in custscenes teach you in game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    having the basic 9 buttons is soo very little for a mmo its insane
    GW2 is designed not to clutter your screen with buttons, as elementalist, for example, you have 29 skills at any time and can have even more by using conjured weapon as your utility. Though your basic mistake is confusing amount of buttons with depth, GW1 with one customizable hotbar with 8 buttons has way more depth than any FFXIV class.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    and to the point of "when do I get more then two buttons?" that question is answered with later lvls, no matter what mmorpg or rpg in general lvling and getting new stuff in general is always end game, if you don't like this type why even bother with mmos?
    Actually quite a few front load your skills and let later levels change or empower them. A good example is modern WoW and Blade and Soul. In Blade and Soul by level 24 you generally have your whole kit and later abilities are modified or improved or allow different rotations/procs or you gain new utility, etc.

    sub for a month and then drop it hard.
    This is quite literally some peoples exact behavior in FF14. Not only that, it's heavily encouraged by Yoshi.

    takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen
    This is also the preferred method of leveling alternative jobs in FF14. I mean, were you not around for the whole SCH meme?

    I'm just confused why you're bashing other games for things that FF14 also does, in some cases worse. It makes you look like you're incapable of arguing from a position of logic and reason and instead are heavily relying on bias and emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Spamming current level dungeon at least teaches your rotation, what does spamming LMB in custscenes teach you in game?
    You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.
    Yeah, the pain of not learning English as my first language, I constantly need to stop in cutscenes with Urianger or anything related to Limsa Lominsa ("talk like a pirate, yarr") to understand what the hell is the text about. At least it got somewhat better after ARR, Koji probably spends all his time googling memes for FATE names instead of ruining translation.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  6. #686
    I left wow for ffxiv back when 2.0 was in beta, the first 15min in the beta i already knew i was quitting WoW it had that traditional mmo feel, it was slow starting off, like mind numbingly slow but that helped when learning classes and rotations.

    The story makes you feel like your character makes an impact on the world, the people you meet and the things you do are mentioned, while in WoW youre just there to make lore characters better, you are briefly mentioned but the heroes like jaina, thrall, and anduin get all the credit for you killing an old gof or stopping a tyranical warchief.

    I think healing in FFXIV is the best healing experience ive had, i mained sch from 2.0 up until shadowbringers and i may end up doing it again if dancer doesnt work out, healing feels great, im not just spamming aoe heals, i have to learn the fights and know when tank busters and group wide oh shit moments happen and act accordingly.

    Ive came back to WoW maybe 3 times and each time its to try out the new content hoping things have improved but everytime its been a no.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This is quite literally some peoples exact behavior in FF14. Not only that, it's heavily encouraged by Yoshi.
    He has commented that he'd rather people unsub and do other things rather than feel chained to this game and end up disliking it. The comment I've seen more is that he EXPECTS people to unsub at certain points, and that's how the business model is designed and how they do their budgets.

    You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.
    I don't. You can click faster than they talk if you're trying to skip and it's really not THAT bad, plus it means the cutscene can be "paused" by simply not clicking to advance. Makes for good snack/drink/potty/ wife aggro breaks.

  8. #688
    BFA: can't decide on a main because every class is boring and shitty version of previous xpacs.

    Shadowbringers: can't decide a main because everything I level is too fun to choose just 1

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Spamming current level dungeon at least teaches your rotation, what does spamming LMB in custscenes teach you in game?


    GW2 is designed not to clutter your screen with buttons, as elementalist, for example, you have 29 skills at any time and can have even more by using conjured weapon as your utility. Though your basic mistake is confusing amount of buttons with depth, GW1 with one customizable hotbar with 8 buttons has way more depth than any FFXIV class.
    the depth of a 8 buttons with a meta for each situation so basically you never actually have depth you have a talent tree where you swap the buttons. Also when did I state it teaches you more about your class? I said it takes more effort meaning you appreciate the rest more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Actually quite a few front load your skills and let later levels change or empower them. A good example is modern WoW and Blade and Soul. In Blade and Soul by level 24 you generally have your whole kit and later abilities are modified or improved or allow different rotations/procs or you gain new utility, etc.



    This is quite literally some peoples exact behavior in FF14. Not only that, it's heavily encouraged by Yoshi.



    This is also the preferred method of leveling alternative jobs in FF14. I mean, were you not around for the whole SCH meme?

    I'm just confused why you're bashing other games for things that FF14 also does, in some cases worse. It makes you look like you're incapable of arguing from a position of logic and reason and instead are heavily relying on bias and emotion.



    You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.
    Thats not your full toolkit if the ability either radically change or change enough to mess with the order of the rotation.

    the quote for Yoshi about him being alright with people not being constantly subbed regards to the behavior of people finishing current content after being caught up, not subbing for a month when you start, buying all skips and then rushing to end game being bored outta your mind cause you skipped 99% of the games content and then bitching the game sucks. That stuff was encouraged more and more for WoW which is why we have the current mess of difficulties and other statistical problems.

    preferred method of lvling alt jobs I'm familiar with, also I'm not bashing other games I'm pointing out that the comment of "when do we get more buttons?" is a complaint of basically all mmorpgs in some form for early lvls and is just a thing of the genre.

    and last thing I'd like to hear is about arguing positions of logic and reason from you on any game considering you think toxicity, "just isn't a big deal in WoW as yall make it out to be" , like I said before you have a weird hate boner for FF14 where every other thing is you arguing about how WoW isn't all that bad and FF14 is just soo much worse.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    the depth of a 8 buttons with a meta for each situation so basically you never actually have depth you have a talent tree where you swap the buttons.
    1. There's never one situation and you can't swap skills out of towns
    2. It still easily beats having built-in meta with heavily scripted rotation and almost no CC, almost no support abilities, almost no interesting singergies
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    Thats not your full toolkit if the ability either radically change or change enough to mess with the order of the rotation.

    the quote for Yoshi about him being alright with people not being constantly subbed regards to the behavior of people finishing current content after being caught up, not subbing for a month when you start, buying all skips and then rushing to end game being bored outta your mind cause you skipped 99% of the games content and then bitching the game sucks. That stuff was encouraged more and more for WoW which is why we have the current mess of difficulties and other statistical problems.

    preferred method of lvling alt jobs I'm familiar with, also I'm not bashing other games I'm pointing out that the comment of "when do we get more buttons?" is a complaint of basically all mmorpgs in some form for early lvls and is just a thing of the genre.

    and last thing I'd like to hear is about arguing positions of logic and reason from you on any game considering you think toxicity, "just isn't a big deal in WoW as yall make it out to be" , like I said before you have a weird hate boner for FF14 where every other thing is you arguing about how WoW isn't all that bad and FF14 is just soo much worse.
    So you basically just ignored everything people said that disproves your claims and are falling back on, "You're just haters"

    Great, apparently I'm in the Star Citizen thread now.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't. You can click faster than they talk if you're trying to skip and it's really not THAT bad, plus it means the cutscene can be "paused" by simply not clicking to advance. Makes for good snack/drink/potty/ wife aggro breaks.
    I just press space and it pauses it, but didn't know it was faster if you leave it manual and spam click, but I do watch cutscenes and don't skip

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    Thats not your full toolkit if the ability either radically change or change enough to mess with the order of the rotation.
    You're being a brat. You knew I proved your wrong by citing 2 examples and instead of researching or refuting them with actual insight or counterpoints, you merely nitpick something. It is your full kit. Even if it changes or improved or small things are tweaked/added it's still a significant departure from how FF14 does it. Enough so to draw a differentiation between the two methodologies.

    the quote for Yoshi about him being alright with people not being constantly subbed regards to the behavior of people finishing current content after being caught up, not subbing for a month when you start, buying all skips and then rushing to end game being bored outta your mind cause you skipped 99% of the games content and then bitching the game sucks.
    What? All I wanted to do here was demonstrate that people sub for a month and burn through content and then take 2 years off and do it all over again. I know firsthand NUMEROUS players who do this. They play the beginning of the expac, and then 2 weeks before the next one. It's the same example of people in WoW.

    preferred method of lvling alt jobs I'm familiar with, also I'm not bashing other games I'm pointing out that the comment of "when do we get more buttons?" is a complaint of basically all mmorpgs in some form for early lvls and is just a thing of the genre.
    Then why did you specifically state "takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen" as a detriment against WoW without acknowledging that it's also one in FF14. You're being hypocritical.

    and last thing I'd like to hear is about arguing positions of logic and reason from you on any game considering you think toxicity, "just isn't a big deal in WoW as yall make it out to be" , like I said before you have a weird hate boner for FF14 where every other thing is you arguing about how WoW isn't all that bad and FF14 is just soo much worse.
    Can you do me 2 favors:

    1) Can you link to ANY example of me saying that, complete with context.

    2) I never said FF14 is worse or WoW is better? Can you link to any example of me saying either of those things?

    I know first hand (and many regulars here do as well) that I am critical of all games. You don't need to agree with my criticisms, but you CANNOT with a straight face argue that I'm biased or irrational in any of my discussions. Can we say the same for you?

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I just press space and it pauses it, but didn't know it was faster if you leave it manual and spam click, but I do watch cutscenes and don't skip



    You're being a brat. You knew I proved your wrong by citing 2 examples and instead of researching or refuting them with actual insight or counterpoints, you merely nitpick something. It is your full kit. Even if it changes or improved or small things are tweaked/added it's still a significant departure from how FF14 does it. Enough so to draw a differentiation between the two methodologies.



    What? All I wanted to do here was demonstrate that people sub for a month and burn through content and then take 2 years off and do it all over again. I know firsthand NUMEROUS players who do this. They play the beginning of the expac, and then 2 weeks before the next one. It's the same example of people in WoW.



    Then why did you specifically state "takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen" as a detriment against WoW without acknowledging that it's also one in FF14. You're being hypocritical.



    Can you do me 2 favors:

    1) Can you link to ANY example of me saying that, complete with context.

    2) I never said FF14 is worse or WoW is better? Can you link to any example of me saying either of those things?

    I know first hand (and many regulars here do as well) that I am critical of all games. You don't need to agree with my criticisms, but you CANNOT with a straight face argue that I'm biased or irrational in any of my discussions. Can we say the same for you?
    don't have to cite a specific post but the whole topic of toxicity in FF14 vs WoW for you is "but my opinion is that toxcitiy is worse in FF14 then WoW because I barely pug" when plenty of people have proven you wrong over and over and over. Again you have a hateboner for FF14 and seem to only play it so you can argue with people online.

    and no getting the base abilities and then having them transform is not your full toolkit, its like saying a toolkit on one size wrench one size screwdriver and hammer compares to a full toolkit of various sizes of all tools which is what end game is for most mmos.

    and third since you seem to like to turn shit around like you didn't say it, you mentioned Yoshi specifically. Yoshi encourages people to not be tied down to the game for a full patch cycle cause of grind, he never said that about the full expac. Good for your friends who start the expac and then quit till the almost the next one, they're not the ones Yoshi was talking about at all.

    fourth Going through the MSQ and lvling that does take more effort then spamming current lvl dungeon, I know that because I've lvld every job that way from lvl 1 its brainless and faster then doing the MSQ unless again you skip 100% of the cutscenes.
    Last edited by Dugna; 2019-07-16 at 04:22 PM.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    don't have to cite a specific post but the whole topic of toxicity in FF14 vs WoW for you is "but my opinion is that toxcitiy is worse in FF14 then WoW because I barely pug" when plenty of people have proven you wrong over and over and over.
    ???? So you can't cite a single example? Not a single one?

    How about an example where someone, anyone has proven me wrong, over and over, and over?

    Fun fact - I've never said that I barely pug. In fact I've very clearly stated the opposite. That I pug very frequently, I however, do not use the DF or do LFR. I still pug mythic+ keys all the time, even high ones. I pugged heroic and mythic raids as well. So you are also OBJECTIVELY wrong here as well. In FF14 I almost exclusively pug, both savage and EX's and DF content.

    0/3. Please present an iota of effort next time, or seriously don't bother. Your mouth frothing antics are beginning to tire me. You're stating a lot of misinformation, but no real concrete analysis or examples.

    and third since you seem to like to turn shit around like you didn't say it, you mentioned Yoshi specifically. Yoshi encourages people to not be tied down to the game for a full patch cycle cause of grind, he never said that about the full expac. Good for your friends who start the expac and then quit till the almost the next one, they're not the ones Yoshi was talking about at all.
    I'm aware of that. I'm simply letting you know that there are people who do play it that way and find value in it, and despite it not fitting his words 1:1, it's technically not wrong either. Whether they come back for the most recent patch, or for all the patches is ultimately irrelevant with the scope of his quote. The function is still identical and valid.

    fourth Going through the MSQ and lvling that does take more effort then spamming current lvl dungeon, I know that because I've lvld every job that way from lvl 1 its brainless and faster then doing the MSQ unless again you skip 100% of the cutscenes.
    MSQ is a lot of brainless back and forth. Dungeon spamming at least requires a modicum of effort/attention.

    But that is irrelevant to this discussion. You stated that in WoW you simply spam dungeons while watching stuff on the other monitor as if it was a negative (it can be subjectively). I called you out by citing clear use cases that it's the EXACT same thing you do in FF14. I'm all for valid criticism, but this isn't one of them (without bashing both, which if you're comfortable explicitly admitting then we're good).
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2019-07-16 at 08:54 PM.

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