Net nerf for Havoc next week

[Deleted]

I beg to differ. The important thing is subjective. Since I'm not “the highest skilled and geared”, I couldn't care less about what happens there. And the vast majority of people playing ain't there either, since that's a spot reserved for... Maybe 10-20 DHs? So... Why on earth should I ONLY care about what happens at those levels of play?

Don't get me wrong, I think the class has much room for improvement, and I totally hate T21... But saying not parsing 99+ makes you a shit player is absurd, and therefore devalues the rest of your argumentation. If you don't link your parses (all of them 99+) you are to be considered a shit player. And... why should we be listening to a shit player?

And btw, sorry for my english, it isn't my mother tongue.

He isn't wrong though. Being strong is subjective for most people but balancing should happen around the absolute top performance. You don't balance the game around people who can't play their spec properly. 99% parses do require a bit of luck, but nothing out of the ordinary. Kill times also skew havoc's performance upwards, which is another factor.

If the heaviest burst class in game does middle of the pack on quick farm kills, something is wrong. I'm not saying DHs should be overpowered on farm,.but bringing melee range burst with poor target switch, poor sustained damage and just OK soaking capability somewhere higher instead of being dragged lower should happen pre-Antorus. Hopefully not through an aura hotfix.

[Sarevokcz]

He isn't wrong though. Being strong is subjective for most people but balancing should happen around the absolute top performance. You don't balance the game around people who can't play their spec properly. 99% parses do require a bit of luck, but nothing out of the ordinary. Kill times also skew havoc's performance upwards, which is another factor.

If the heaviest burst class in game does middle of the pack on quick farm kills, something is wrong. I'm not saying DHs should be overpowered on farm,.but bringing melee range burst with poor target switch, poor sustained damage and just OK soaking capability somewhere higher instead of being dragged lower should happen pre-Antorus. Hopefully not through an aura hotfix.

you dont balance around 99% pasres tho, those arent "absolute best performance" but "absolute best RNG", especially in DHs case, also going boss by boss, havoc has 413 parses on avatar for example, by 99% logic, only 4 or 5 people are good and the rest are trash or not performing? IMO, 90 to 75% are far more relevant, as it filters the obscene RNG to some degree while still keeping the performance bar very high and shows the same issues as the 99% parses anyway. (Also people WILL look at per boss basis, look at maiden 99% parses and see havoc pretty far ahead of second and claim their ST is broken and there are no fixes needed, I dont think that will win any points for the argument...)

Havoc is in a very sad state, but I dont think pulling 99% parses is the way to show the problem

[BiggestNoob]

you dont balance around 99% pasres tho, those arent "absolute best performance" but "absolute best RNG", especially in DHs case, also going boss by boss, havoc has 413 parses on avatar for example, by 99% logic, only 4 or 5 people are good and the rest are trash or not performing? IMO, 90 to 75% are far more relevant, as it filters the obscene RNG to some degree while still keeping the performance bar very high and shows the same issues as the 99% parses anyway. (Also people WILL look at per boss basis, look at maiden 99% parses and see havoc pretty far ahead of second and claim their ST is broken and there are no fixes needed, I dont think that will win any points for the argument...)

Havoc is in a very sad state, but I dont think pulling 99% parses is the way to show the problem

Except it is because that's how you exclude things like parses of people who die (a 95% player dies and still does > 80%) which contribute a great deal to the bloat. Anything below 70% is completely unacceptable for a mythic raider, so you're really looking at about 30% of parses being actually useful.

It's also not an RNG thing, it's how probability works. If your sample size is too small, outliers are harder to spot, but even at a handful above 99% you're still getting relevant information. The skew looks exactly the same as sisters for instance. There are 6600 logs for Havoc on sisters, the 99% mark is 66 which is 1.471 million DPS. 99.5% is 33 which is 1.501 which is ~2% more DPS. 100% is 1.623 which is 10% more than the 99% figure. This large skew happens generally around the top 10-15 with this many logs, where perfect kill times and/or RNG line up to give someone outlier-level DPS, and you tend to see this happen in heroic a lot more because guilds that stomp mythic don't generally try to speed kill heroic, it's less pronounced in mythic because most top guilds that log are always trying to kill bosses faster, so you're not looking at thousands of shitty guilds barely killing the boss and a dozen guilds killing it minutes faster. The outlier range for this starts somewhere around 99.75%, which is looking at the top quartile of 99%. The numbers at 99% are reasonable, and comparing them say to 95% (330 or 1.387 million DPS, or 94.3% of the 99% parse, or in other words the 99% cutoff is only 6% higher than the 95% cutoff, but the 100% is 10% higher than the 99% due to it generally being an outlier) you find that there's a smoother gradient there than in the top 50% or so of the top 1%, which means the issues you raised aren't really a concern at that point.

If you exclude Avatar and KJ due to sample issues, the standings remain the same with DH at the bottom in the 99%, I don't think sample size is an issue here. And it's not 4 or 5 people are good and the rest are trash, it's 4 or 5 people are realistically close to perfect and are what the spec is capable of with the best gear you can obtain, without dying, without bad RNG (not outlier RNG), and with a kill time that isn't completely fucked.

If everyone had the exact same gear, exact same kill times, nobody ever died, and everyone played at the same skill level, I'd say using a 50% would be reasonable, just like simcraft does, but realistically to normalize for all of that you have to look at the top few percentile.

[Kazzguhl]

It's mythic 99% and 2 weeks. That's the only relevant graph. Below that you're looking at dead players or shit players, above that you're looking at padding.

This must be a troll. Saying "be 99 or you are trash" means you have no clue how ranking works.

1) Sometimes you have to do a job that won't increase your dps but help the down

2) bad debuff /soak /focus by adds, etc

2) Crit rate RNG : No matter how good you are if your annhilation crit is at 30% at the end of the fight, despite your crite rate at 55%, your dps will be meh. On the other side, almost all top parse DH have a better crit rate on the spell then on their base stat.

2b) stuff: full titanforge socket proc help... a lot. Does it mean you are skilled ?

3) Your dps is also linked to your raid set-up. You can go with 1 DH using the belt + full war and the DH will have insane rank as he will do a lot more dps at 80%+ HP of the boss and the war will quickly execute the boss when he is at 30%-

3b) you can do the "range job" to improve your dps/rank. (Harjatan pack of murlock as example...big aoe inside and your dps is happy. Your range mate won't
3c) you said it yourself : Faster kill = better rank (not only for the DH btw) as your 2 pots and the BL will have a better % uptime. Therefore, you can have a trash DH in a great raid. He will parse better then a good DH in a bad raid.

For all these reason I can't agree with you and I will never check 99% parse to check well does a spec.

[thoriphes]

He isn't wrong though. Being strong is subjective for most people but balancing should happen around the absolute top performance. You don't balance the game around people who can't play their spec properly. 99% parses do require a bit of luck, but nothing out of the ordinary. Kill times also skew havoc's performance upwards, which is another factor.

There's some space between “99+ parses” and “people who can't play their spec properly”. You guys are taking it to the extremes, and that was my only complain. There's a huge difference between a player parsing 93, and a player parsing 22. And they were both being put on the same bag (not 99, therefore “shit player”). That's absurd.

Again, I agree there is room for improvement, I just don't agree with the line of thought of taking only 99+ parses to show something. Nor do I think it's a good idea to balance a game ONLY around what top X performers in the world can do, since I fall soooo far away from that category, and so do THE VAST majority of people playing this game (probably even the ones advocating for balancing the game around levels of play way above their own).

- - - Updated - - -

Except it is because that's how you exclude things like parses of people who die (a 95% player dies and still does > 80%) which contribute a great deal to the bloat. Anything below 70% is completely unacceptable for a mythic raider, so you're really looking at about 30% of parses being actually useful.

It's also not an RNG thing, it's how probability works. If your sample size is too small, outliers are harder to spot, but even at a handful above 99% you're still getting relevant information. The skew looks exactly the same as sisters for instance. There are 6600 logs for Havoc on sisters, the 99% mark is 66 which is 1.471 million DPS. 99.5% is 33 which is 1.501 which is ~2% more DPS. 100% is 1.623 which is 10% more than the 99% figure. This large skew happens generally around the top 10-15 with this many logs, where perfect kill times and/or RNG line up to give someone outlier-level DPS, and you tend to see this happen in heroic a lot more because guilds that stomp mythic don't generally try to speed kill heroic, it's less pronounced in mythic because most top guilds that log are always trying to kill bosses faster, so you're not looking at thousands of shitty guilds barely killing the boss and a dozen guilds killing it minutes faster. The outlier range for this starts somewhere around 99.75%, which is looking at the top quartile of 99%. The numbers at 99% are reasonable, and comparing them say to 95% (330 or 1.387 million DPS, or 94.3% of the 99% parse, or in other words the 99% cutoff is only 6% higher than the 95% cutoff, but the 100% is 10% higher than the 99% due to it generally being an outlier) you find that there's a smoother gradient there than in the top 50% or so of the top 1%, which means the issues you raised aren't really a concern at that point.

If you exclude Avatar and KJ due to sample issues, the standings remain the same with DH at the bottom in the 99%, I don't think sample size is an issue here. And it's not 4 or 5 people are good and the rest are trash, it's 4 or 5 people are realistically close to perfect and are what the spec is capable of with the best gear you can obtain, without dying, without bad RNG (not outlier RNG), and with a kill time that isn't completely fucked.

If everyone had the exact same gear, exact same kill times, nobody ever died, and everyone played at the same skill level, I'd say using a 50% would be reasonable, just like simcraft does, but realistically to normalize for all of that you have to look at the top few percentile.

Hmmm... If I'm understanding this well... Given the data you are using to arrive to your conclussions (I might be wrong, please correct me if I am), are you telling us DHs need to be buffed/revamped because bringing one to a boss in farm status will make the fight last 8 seconds longer than it woulda last if you brought a lock, for example?

[Height]

I think at most they should balance it around 90% parses, not 99%. Some of those parses might just be a class taking all the adds at the same time while others stay on a boss. Or people cheesing a fight once to see how much damage they can do without other people helping. It's data that is hugely outlier in most cases. At 90% I imagine people aren't cheesing things or doing weird stuff to inflate numbers.

Those demon hunter charts posted earlier with no information as to how the poster set them up, seem weird. On most fights WW is actually worse than Demon Hunter when I read just about any log on that site. If they're going to buff Demon Hunter, expect them to have to do the same to WW, as they both fit similar niches for the most part.

[epLe]

Yes, and the important thing is "what is possible given the highest skill level and gear level in the game" which is where balance matters.

Totally wrong, balance don't matter at all there, they adapt to the unbalance by stacking FOTM accordingly.

[BiggestNoob]

Totally wrong, balance don't matter at all there, they adapt to the unbalance by stacking FOTM accordingly.

Not quite. If it's a 3-4% bump it's not worth splitting to gear an alt, especially not considering only the top 5-10% of people can even play alts at a similar level to their main (assuming all the other stuff on the character is maintained to the same level). If it's a 20%+ like it will be for DH they absolutely will, which is precisely why balance matters.

Blizzard could actually get the balance tight enough that the best spec was only 5% above the worst spec, but they have indicated many times in the past that they don't actually care enough about balance to try to get things equal, at best they'll just rotate classes to be OP, and they've claimed they always intend to keep specs from being so bad that nobody would bring them, but for the past 5 years there has always been a spec in that situation, it just so happens that this expansion it's been mostly specs that are the only DPS spec for their class. Blizzard broke literally every promise they made from beta about balance in this expansion, most within the first raid tier.

No change to the tier with the sweeping changes they made (dramatic buffs/nerfs) indicates Blizzard has no intention of fixing this class, so it's time to retire all the Havoc DHs.

[Tech614]

it's time to retire all the Havoc DHs.

No, it's just time for you to retire because you're clearly a youngin new to blizzard and if you expected anything to change well hopefully it was in the "fool me once" category due to your youth and you're not someone who has been playing WoW for many years expecting blizzard to magically change.

All specs being viable to due most content in the game once at appropriate gear levels. That is all blizzard cares about, and all they have ever cared about since they started balancing this way in WOTLK/Cata time period. They don't care about your meter wars, and if you want to continue playing this game you should stop doing so as well.

The game is homogenized enough, if every spec is within 5% of each other you might as well delete all classes and just have TANK HEALER MDPS RDPS. 4 classes, have fun. Blizzard won't admit it but they know this, and know what they're doing.

[Shirofune]

No, it's just time for you to retire because you're clearly a youngin new to blizzard and if you expected anything to change well hopefully it was in the "fool me once" category due to your youth and you're not someone who has been playing WoW for many years expecting blizzard to magically change.

All specs being viable to due most content in the game once at appropriate gear levels. That is all blizzard cares about, and all they have ever cared about since they started balancing this way in WOTLK/Cata time period. They don't care about your meter wars, and if you want to continue playing this game you should stop doing so as well.

The game is homogenized enough, if every spec is within 5% of each other you might as well delete all classes and just have TANK HEALER MDPS RDPS. 4 classes, have fun. Blizzard won't admit it but they know this, and know what they're doing.

Yeah, so the game is fine when I've got 940 ilvl and I can solo all of the world content of Argus, right?

Nice joke.

Balancing MATTERS and ofc is of the most importance on mythic raiding. If Blizzard doesn't care about it they're totally wrong, because where the content is the hardest is where balance matters the most.

Nobody gives a fuck about world PvP or world content and how fast you kill mobs, because everyone can do it and nothing matters.

That situation doesn't happen in Mythic raids.

[Synthium]

I beg to differ. The important thing is subjective. Since I'm not “the highest skilled and geared”, I couldn't care less about what happens there. And the vast majority of people playing ain't there either, since that's a spot reserved for... Maybe 10-20 DHs? So... Why on earth should I ONLY care about what happens at those levels of play?

Don't get me wrong, I think the class has much room for improvement, and I totally hate T21... But saying not parsing 99+ makes you a shit player is absurd, and therefore devalues the rest of your argumentation. If you don't link your parses (all of them 99+) you are to be considered a shit player. And... why should we be listening to a shit player?

And btw, sorry for my english, it isn't my mother tongue.

I don't think he meant an average raider is absolute trash at the game if he doesn't parse 99+ on every fight. What he meant is that those parses are what represents the cream of the crop for the spec, the absolute ceiling you can achieve playing that spec on that encounter. And if your 99 parse is 2 million dps and my 99 parse is 1,3 million, it's one of 2 possible things:

Either it's a very VERY niche fight for your spec, or my spec is just trash at that specific encounter or even overall.

[thoriphes]

I don't think he meant an average raider is absolute trash at the game if he doesn't parse 99+ on every fight. What he meant is that those parses are what represents the cream of the crop for the spec, the absolute ceiling you can achieve playing that spec on that encounter. And if your 99 parse is 2 million dps and my 99 parse is 1,3 million, it's one of 2 possible things:

Either it's a very VERY niche fight for your spec, or my spec is just trash at that specific encounter or even overall.

Dunno, a 99 parse for me is a parse from a farm status boss. And while I agree (again) that there's a lot of room for improvement for havoc DHs, a 5-10% raw DPS difference on farm is never gonna be relevant in my book.

Even tho, nowadays my biggest complain is Nemesis and target switching, plus demonic which I don't really like. I won't like being forced to it in T21 (if that's the case in the end). Chaos Blades and Nemesis, while effective, are boring as hell too.

Raw DPS is so low in my "complains" priority.

[Pigglix]

Lol anything that parse 95%+, specially for havoc, only happens if RNG smiles upon you on your fury regen and boss mechanics and if you're allowed to sit on the boss 100% of the time no matter what.

I think that dude is trying to be a comedian or something

[BiggestNoob]

It's now official, Ion has confirmed that Blizzard thinks balance is currently good and they won't be doing a balance pass before Antorus, which means DH is officially a dead class in Legion. Reroll now.

Lol anything that parse 95%+, specially for havoc, only happens if RNG smiles upon you on your fury regen and boss mechanics and if you're allowed to sit on the boss 100% of the time no matter what.

I think that dude is trying to be a comedian or something

This is false.

[Tech614]

It's now official, Ion has confirmed that Blizzard thinks balance is currently good and they won't be doing a balance pass before Antorus, which means DH is officially a dead class in Legion. Reroll now.

What was actually said...

Class Balance
There aren't plans to do much balancing before Antorus opens.
Balancing around Tomb won't do much to help balance in Antrous, as there will be new set bonuses and trinkets.
The team will do balance passes after Antorus unlocks.

I'm sorry your own personal sky is falling. There will be a hot fix balancing pass on the reset that unlocks mythic just like there always is. SHOCKER.

[BiggestNoob]

What was actually said...



I'm sorry your own personal sky is falling. There will be a hot fix balancing pass on the reset that unlocks mythic just like there always is. SHOCKER.

You can't read very well can you? They said balance in Tomb was fine, it wasn't fine, it hasn't been fine at all, it wasn't fine ON THE WEEK THAT MYTHIC OPENED, NOR THE NEXT WEEK, NOR THE MONTHS AFTER THAT.

They've already rebalanced tier and made class changes based on tier in Antorus but have excluded Havoc from that, and yet here you are thinking Havoc is going to see a 15% buff (which would be the minimum viable buff amount) on the opening week of mythic?

You're fucking retarded.

INFRACTION

[Tech614]

here you are thinking Havoc is going to see a 15% buff

I'm thinking that? Did you read my mind? I clearly posted no such thing. This is beyond a strawman, this is like forcing your own opinion into someone's head. Did you hit me with an alien probe? Oh wait you didn't because I don't think that is happening nor do I think that is necessary.

[Stacie]

Keep it civil please guys.

[Pigglix]

To quote lord illidan

"When your dps felt to darkness, you havent done anything to improve, when the rogues/warriors took over your raid, you didnt make a stand, all you did was bitch and cry, conviced you were following the logs will, the truth is , you failed your raid team, their wipes are on your hands. The logs are holding you back"

[epLe]

The balance in Tomb is pretty good right now.