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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I also see getting people to accept it as a hurdle but one of the bigger ones I foresee is people and companies actively working to sabotage it like they did with the ACA.

    Then you have people who are ideologically against it or taught to be against it with lies that don't match reality. I know a few of them, they won't accept the truth even if it is staring them in the face on a few issues. With many of them having a revisionist history of events to place blame where they wanted instead of where it belonged.

    Seen too many who try to ignore all the stuff Bush did to place it on Obama and see too many who try to ignore all the stuff Clinton did to blame Sanders and voters.

    AFK.
    The mystique of being against universal healthcare is fading away, because prevention is always more cost effective. Universal healthcare ensures that you do not have people slamming the system like what is happening in the US currently with major surgeries that could have been prevented or seen well ahead with a simple doctor visit.

    Also the idea of death panels is fading away because wait times in the US for major surgeries are increased. Also, many Canadians are also showing that you can still receive private healthcare if you are willing to put money down and don't want to wait for the government.

    More option is always better than few or none.

    As for sabotage...they could try all they want but medicare functions exactly as advertised and most Americans are happy with how it works. This is why Sanders makes a clear, simple, logical case to extend medicare down below from retirees to all Americans.

    Private insurance industry will shift back to pre Obama era of catastrophic health insurance which is what they want anyways for them to stay a profitable business and answer to share holders.

    So in summary, it is a win for the citizens of the US. win for the private health insurance industry and also it is a win for hospitals. Price gouging of hospital bills would also be brought in line along with price controls on medicine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mittens View Post
    How it will be funded is quite literally how you get people on board with it. Vermont was okay with it, until they realized how much they had to pay for it. You lot seem to be missing this part.
    I disagree.

    We are beyond the point of bean counting because look at how much people pay for premiums and have little or no coverage? How many people can afford the deductibles at this point?

    Your statement would have been 100% true in 2012, but since then premiums have sky rocketed way beyond how much the average citizen would be taxed under a universal health care system.

    Go ask any Canadians how much they are taxed for their healthcare and then compare to the average American family that pays for private health insurance. Factor in medicine price differences and it is not even close.

    American health care system is inefficient because it lacks preventive care and also because it is not fair to the private health insurance industry to expect them to foot the bill for major surgery one after the other when a lot of these major surgeries can be prevented.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The mystique of being against universal healthcare is fading away, because prevention is always more cost effective. Universal healthcare ensures that you do not have people slamming the system like what is happening in the US currently with major surgeries that could have been prevented or seen well ahead with a simple doctor visit.

    Also the idea of death panels is fading away because wait times in the US for major surgeries are increased. Also, many Canadians are also showing that you can still receive private healthcare if you are willing to put money down and don't want to wait for the government.

    More option is always better than few or none.

    As for sabotage...they could try all they want but medicare functions exactly as advertised and most Americans are happy with how it works. This is why Sanders makes a clear, simple, logical case to extend medicare down below from retirees to all Americans.

    Private insurance industry will shift back to pre Obama era of catastrophic health insurance which is what they want anyways for them to stay a profitable business and answer to share holders.

    So in summary, it is a win for the citizens of the US. win for the private health insurance industry and also it is a win for hospitals. Price gouging of hospital bills would also be brought in line along with price controls on medicine.
    The mystique might be gone for those of us who take the time to learn about it, but most of those against it still never did and only haven't spoken against it because Obama isn't in power and so the media hasn't been bringing it up as much and for as long. Most don't know about Sanders plan yet or they just recently found out.

    Same with the death panels, they fail to realize that insurance companies of the past have been literal death panels. Also have to remember these people still think Canada's system is bad because they don't take the time to research them.

    And just because it might be difficult to sabotage them, don't think they can't if they can blame the Democrats or a democrat program for doing it or just lying about it and claim it is failing or causing issues that it really isn't. Just look at the "Failing" ACA and how our economy was failing under Obama as were the jobs but magically improved under Trump though it is really just coasting from Obama and is overall unchanged.

    Trust me, I completely support Single Payer as it has proven to be higher quality, cheaper, with better coverage. I just know the extents they go to deny reality or break stuff and blame others to avoid accepting realities they don't like.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2017-09-14 at 09:08 PM.
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  3. #83
    Legendary! Yggdrasil's Avatar
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    Wont ever work in the US until costs are controlled. As long as a bandaid in the hospital is a 300 dollar addition to a bill healthcare in the country is doomed.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Yggdrasil View Post
    Wont ever work in the US until costs are controlled. As long as a bandaid in the hospital is a 300 dollar addition to a bill healthcare in the country is doomed.
    Just pass a law requiring them to charge them the same rates they charge the VA like they tried to pass in California (Pharma lobbied and lied to the public so it failed). That alone would be a huge cost covering approach.

    As it stands, medicare is banned from negotiating their prices thanks to Bush Jr so they pay through the nose. They fix it by repealing that or sidestep it like California tried to and that would greatly get it under control.

    Once Medicare became the single biggest insurer and was allowed to negotiate with some leverage, that would help fix itself. But till then, they have nothing really stopping them.
    "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
    "By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living."
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  5. #85
    Legendary! Yggdrasil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Just pass a law requiring them to charge them the same rates they charge the VA like they tried to pass in California (Pharma lobbied and lied to the public so it failed). That alone would be a huge cost covering approach.

    As it stands, medicare is banned from negotiating their prices thanks to Bush Jr so they pay through the nose. They fix it by repealing that or sidestep it like California tried to and that would greatly get it under control.

    Once Medicare became the single biggest insurer and was allowed to negotiate with some leverage, that would help fix itself. But till then, they have nothing really stopping them.
    Yeah obviously making a law is the answer. The problem is about half the population is brainwashed by big cooperations that tell them that controlling costs is commie shit or something.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Yggdrasil View Post
    Yeah obviously making a law is the answer. The problem is about half the population is brainwashed by big cooperations that tell them that controlling costs is commie shit or something.
    Yeah, too many think that government breaks everything and the free market is some god that fixes almost everything and self regulates. Fortunately the old red scare has less of an effect on the younger generations and is slowly losing it's political punch.
    "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
    "By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living."
    FDR, the President who instituted Minimum Wage. Something to think of whenever you have tell you that the wage or a job wasn't meant to live on.

  7. #87
    Epic! downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Yeah, too many think that government breaks everything and the free market is some god that fixes almost everything and self regulates. Fortunately the old red scare has less of an effect on the younger generations and is slowly losing it's political punch.
    That's not a good thing.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    That's not a good thing.
    How is that NOT a good thing?

    Things should be judged on their merit or lack of it. Too long as this nation been held back trying to equate stuff that might help with that crap.
    "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
    "By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living."
    FDR, the President who instituted Minimum Wage. Something to think of whenever you have tell you that the wage or a job wasn't meant to live on.

  9. #89
    Epic! downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    How is that NOT a good thing?

    Things should be judged on their merit or lack of it. Too long as this nation been held back trying to equate stuff that might help with that crap.
    It's not a good thing because communism is a murderous ideology that led to mass human suffering everywhere it's been tried. The fact that it's been trending positively among young people is a fucking disgrace. I suspect the reason for that comes from people playing fast and loose with words. Single-payer healthcare policy is not communism, so why conflate the two?
    Robert Mueller Theme Song
    "...so there seems to be a fundamental flaw in the conceptualization, although people could always excuse that by saying "Well that's not real communism," which is the sort of statement that should immediately get you punched in the nose hard enough to knock you out as far as I am concerned."
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    It's not a good thing because communism is a murderous ideology that led to mass human suffering everywhere it's been tried. The fact that it's been trending positively among young people is a fucking disgrace. I suspect the reason for that comes from people playing fast and loose with words. Single-payer healthcare policy is not communism, so why conflate the two?
    Who said anything about that? By the red scare, I meant how just relating anything to communism cuts off all rational thought on a subject and then automatically thinking it as bad.

    The red scare fading does not mean people supporting communism, it means people fearing it or anything even remotely related to it.

    The fact people refused to even consider options or think critically about them because people related it to communism is what I and many others consider to be a fucking disgrace directed at older people and many younger ones as well.

    You know they aren't the same thing, but the red scare ensured that just relating it to them in talking made sure people automatically shut down on it and refused to look deeper.

    Edit: Trust me, the red scare fading doesn't mean anything about people actually supporting communism. It just means people are willing to actually think critically about the issues instead of just mentally shutting down and doing a knee jerk any time it is brought up.
    "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
    "By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living."
    FDR, the President who instituted Minimum Wage. Something to think of whenever you have tell you that the wage or a job wasn't meant to live on.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blade Wolf View Post
    Excuse me while i rip out my eyes after clearly seeing Trumps underwear...
    Underwear? I guess it depends on what you're looking at.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Really? They're "destroying" the party? I'd love to see some evidence of this. The DNC's struggles are because the party has always been a bit of a shitshow, and they're reacting especially poorly to the current political landscape now. The DNC's failures are all on them, their successes usually come in spit of themselves, not because of themselves.

    You're leaping to blame "Bernie Bros", who you admit are a super small group of folks (though I'd argue that they've never really existed as-presented, at least not in any numbers that one would remotely quantify as meaningful) that are somehow ruining everything. how?



    Don't have time to re-read through that thread, but what makes them "Bernie Bro's"? Their continued support for Sanders and dislike of Hillary? Because that's a ludicrously low bar, if so. I couldn't find the post about rigging, though I know some folks still complain about that. If it was deleted, maybe the poster realized they posted in error?



    I mean, did you have anything to post about the plan itself, or were you just looking to take a pot-shot at Bernie supporters in this thread?
    Of course they are destroying the Democratic party with their non-stop lies and bogus attacks on "the DNC", the "rigged primaries", and the "corporate Dems".

    Your obsessive and misguided attacks on "the DNC" for things the DNC have nothing to do with is exactly what the Bernie Bros do. The DNC is not the Democratic Party, dummy. Hillary's campaign and her message isn't the DNC. The Democrat's congressional races aren't run by the DNC. When Senate Dems introduced The Better Way policy proposal or when Schumer and Pelosi negotiated with Trump, that wasn't the DNC, that was congressional Dems.

    Turning "The DNC" into this massive boogeyman controlling and rigging everything the Democratic Party does and who's failings are one of the main reasons for Democratic losses is a lie right from the Bernie Bro playbook.

    I did post something about the plan. There's no plan. It's a magic asterisk.
    Last edited by paralleluniverse; 2017-09-17 at 04:45 AM.
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  13. #93
    The simple solution to pay for it would be to eliminate the cap for medicare taxation and make all earnings subject to it including capital gains. Since everyone would be covered everyone pays an equal percentage. The other issue I never hear a follow up to when people complain about coverage and what not, the private insurers can still be apart and offer supplemental plans.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    The mystique might be gone for those of us who take the time to learn about it, but most of those against it still never did and only haven't spoken against it because Obama isn't in power and so the media hasn't been bringing it up as much and for as long. Most don't know about Sanders plan yet or they just recently found out.

    Same with the death panels, they fail to realize that insurance companies of the past have been literal death panels. Also have to remember these people still think Canada's system is bad because they don't take the time to research them.

    And just because it might be difficult to sabotage them, don't think they can't if they can blame the Democrats or a democrat program for doing it or just lying about it and claim it is failing or causing issues that it really isn't. Just look at the "Failing" ACA and how our economy was failing under Obama as were the jobs but magically improved under Trump though it is really just coasting from Obama and is overall unchanged.

    Trust me, I completely support Single Payer as it has proven to be higher quality, cheaper, with better coverage. I just know the extents they go to deny reality or break stuff and blame others to avoid accepting realities they don't like.
    There are many social obstacles left which I concur with. But the economic one isn't as a strong of a barrier for most people based on health care costs rising unreasonably.

    I remember 20 years ago people saying it wasn't economically viable to make universal healthcare possible for the US due to the size of the country in terms of population and also costs. However, since then there has been technology revolutions, premiums rising to the point of double or triple the cost of home mortgages (lol?), and also more connectivity with other countries that utilize a hybrid system (eg Swiss) or a a full universal health care system (Canada). One way or another universal health care is an inevitable outcome due to economic factors for the U.S..

    Indeed economic factors are driven just as much by social factors, but a lot of times societal attitudes changes based on economic factors as well. So, in the discussion with universal health care the costs are so out of control that people are willing to overlook their social attitudes towards it since we are beyond that economic threshold when it comes to premiums costing 50% of the average families expenditures every month. The government isn't going to tax the average family 50% of expenditures every month for universal health care that is for sure.

    Those that are in denial of this reality due not understand the numbers.

    The best analogy I can make is that economic factors always change people's attitudes. This is why cfcs and ozone depletion was dealt with swiftly while human induced climate change the feet are dragged to do anything about. It is all about the economics of a particular subject.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    The simple solution to pay for it would be to eliminate the cap for medicare taxation and make all earnings subject to it including capital gains. Since everyone would be covered everyone pays an equal percentage. The other issue I never hear a follow up to when people complain about coverage and what not, the private insurers can still be apart and offer supplemental plans.
    That is what the private insurers want and that is to go back to supplemental plans or catastrophic coverage as that would be the maximum profit for them and their share holders.

    Universal health care is inevitable based on this pace the US is on.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2017-09-17 at 01:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Of course they are destroying the Democratic party with their non-stop lies and bogus attacks on "the DNC", the "rigged primaries", and the "corporate Dems".

    Your obsessive and misguided attacks on "the DNC" for things the DNC have nothing to do with is exactly what the Bernie Bros do. The DNC is not the Democratic Party, dummy. Hillary's campaign and her message isn't the DNC. The Democrat's congressional races aren't run by the DNC. When Senate Dems introduced The Better Way policy proposal or when Schumer and Pelosi negotiated with Trump, that wasn't the DNC, that was congressional Dems.

    Turning "The DNC" into this massive boogeyman controlling and rigging everything the Democratic Party does and who's failings are one of the main reasons for Democratic losses is a lie right from the Bernie Bro playbook.

    I did post something about the plan. There's no plan. It's a magic asterisk.
    And what did the evil Bernie bros do, not vote for the corporate shill? It's not the voters job to fall in line with parties just because they usually vote democrat. If Hillary couldn't convince them to vote for her then it's her fault, not the voter.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    There are many social obstacles left which I concur with. But the economic one isn't as a strong of a barrier for most people based on health care costs rising unreasonably.

    I remember 20 years ago people saying it wasn't economically viable to make universal healthcare possible for the US due to the size of the country in terms of population and also costs. However, since then there has been technology revolutions, premiums rising to the point of double or triple the cost of home mortgages (lol?), and also more connectivity with other countries that utilize a hybrid system (eg Swiss) or a a full universal health care system (Canada). One way or another universal health care is an inevitable outcome due to economic factors for the U.S..

    Indeed economic factors are driven just as much by social factors, but a lot of times societal attitudes changes based on economic factors as well. So, in the discussion with universal health care the costs are so out of control that people are willing to overlook their social attitudes towards it since we are beyond that economic threshold when it comes to premiums costing 50% of the average families expenditures every month. The government isn't going to tax the average family 50% of expenditures every month for universal health care that is for sure.

    Those that are in denial of this reality due not understand the numbers.

    The best analogy I can make is that economic factors always change people's attitudes. This is why cfcs and ozone depletion was dealt with swiftly while human induced climate change the feet are dragged to do anything about. It is all about the economics of a particular subject.
    When it comes to universal or single payer healthcare, the ONLY factors we have at this point has been social factors. There haven't been any actual economic factors for decades preventing it as it was superior for at least the past 20 years minimum even with that technology of the time.

    And Universal healthcare is one of those things that benefits the economies of scale the bigger population size actually made it more viable for us. Everything past that just made it harder and harder to spread the lie that it was too expensive.

    The things they have been proposing as economic factors weren't even economic factors most times, they were lies which put them more into the social factors category. Still seeing it today with some friends and you can correct them a million times with the facts to back it up and they will just wait a bit and then get back to repeating the lies again.

    We have nothing but social factors at this point with many of those social factors being people lying about economic factors that doesn't actually exist.

    The only analogy I can think of with most of the people I have seen talking about Universal or Single Payer Healthcare would be like if I started trying to urge you not to buy a Toyota Prius because it was just expensive to purchase and too bad on gas, you should just stick with your H2 Hummer, sure it is only firing on 2 cylinders, the rack is bad, it rims and frame are all warped not to mention it is now more rust than paint but it would just cost too much to purchase that Prius, the gas mileage is too bad and it would cost too much to repair it if it broke down, just better to stick to your H2 Hummer, it would be cheaper to repair and is more efficient use of your money.

    That is about the best analogy I can think off when it comes to the people arguing against it with the "Facts" they have used to support it.
    "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
    "By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living."
    FDR, the President who instituted Minimum Wage. Something to think of whenever you have tell you that the wage or a job wasn't meant to live on.

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