Pawn addon sucks?

[Piocc]

Not even sure why people are saying "it doesnt work with jewerly"

Because since jewelry have such high values of secondary, that single swap can heavily tilt your weights. Pawn only knows how much dps you gain per point of secondary by adding them to your current setup, but doesn't know what happens if you lose them.

A heavy haste/mastery ring for fury can likely lead to mastery/vers being your highest secondaries, but swapping said ring with a mastery/versa one will remove so much haste that you lose dps.

[Meiffert]

Haste and mastery before 'upgrades': 32%, 36%
Haste and mastery after 'upgrades': 32%, 32%

I've already been told many times that ilvl means nothing for Fury and to prioritize haste and mastery over everything. Apparently pawn disagrees.

You have been told wrong.
Haste and mastery are the 2 best stats, but that doesn't mean that the others are completely useless.
In fact, the difference between vers and mastery is only about 10 %, so is the difference between crit and vers.
Critical strike chance is the weakest secondary stat for fury, because it does nothing during Battle Cry, which is where we put out a lot of our damage, but being the weakest doesn't mean useless. In a hypothetical situation where you can choose 100 haste or 200 crit, the crit would be better.

Items with significantly higher item level will very often end up being upgrades, even if they have bad stats. The extra strength as well as the amount of stats will outweigh the smaller amount of "better" stat.

Now as for Pawn. It does nothing more or less than take each stat, multiply its amount by the provided value of the stat and adding them together.
It does this for both items and tells you how much bigger the number is for the new item compared to the old.

If you are only interested in maximizing haste and mastery, just put in the stat weights:
haste - 1
mastery - 1
crit - 0
vers - 0
strength - 0

If you are interested in maximizing you dps, you should sim your character and provide Pawn with your personal stat weights.
Example for my alt warrior:

For those more knowledgeable, what do you think about this?

Ring 1 'your best' : 910ilvl - 1960 haste - 1158 mastery - enchanted 200 haste
Ring 2 '2nd best' : 915ilvl - 1469 crit - 1745 haste - enchanted 200 haste - equip increase autoattack damage by 10%

Ring 3 in my bags: 950 titanforged: 2725 crit - 1248 versatility - enchanted 200 haste

On both the default pawn weights and the new ones I've just put in the 3rd ring is always a large 14% upgrade despite the heavy crit and lack of haste and mastery.

This is what Pawn will do (taking my stats from above, since I don't know yours):
Ring 1: 1960 * 32.23 + 1158 * 29.13 = 96,903
Ring 2: 1469 * 24.13 + 1745 * 32.23 = 91,688
Ring 3: 2725 * 24.13 + 1248 * 26.59 = 98,939

As you can see, ring 3 has so much stats (because of its item level), that it ends up being better (in my case by about 9 % compared to ring 2, it might easily be 14 % in yours, I have pretty badly itemized gear).

There are 2 problems that you have to keep in mind with Pawn:

1. Your stat weights change. That's why you have to use your own rather than depend on the defaults.
It also means that swapping an item might change your stat weights a bit and with the new stat weights the old item will suddenly seem better.
You should keep this in mind and use Pawn as a ballpark. If it says that an item is 10 % upgrade, you can be sure that it is decently better. If it says that an item is 0.2 % increase, you should sim both options, because the stat value fluctuations might give you slightly incorrect results and such a small difference isn't conclusive.

2. Special effect aren't taken into effect. Pawn only looks at the stats and multiplies them by their value.
It is therefore sadly completely useless for comparing non-statstick trinkets, tier items, legendaries, or in your case, the Melandrus ring.
If you have any items with effect that aren't flat stats, you will have to sim those manually.

[XDurionX]

Yeah it's just as smart as the person using it. It does the math for you, but if you enter wrong parameters you get wrong results.

[javierdsv]

To keep it simple, just sim your character, add the Pawn string, and trust the darn values. Even if you think a stat is better for you than any other, the math takes into account everything, from other gear pieces to your talents and traits. That's why you have to sim again after each upgrade or ability change.

A higher ilvl usually means more of your primary stat, which is usually what you need the most, so secondary stats might weigh lower even when you think you are looking at high numbers.

On most cases you should be ok with ring and necklace values too... On trinkets however, or anything that has a "Use:" effect, that won't be calculated so it's personal (logical) preference.

[Deleted]

You have been told wrong.
Haste and mastery are the 2 best stats, but that doesn't mean that the others are completely useless.
In fact, the difference between vers and mastery is only about 10 %, so is the difference between crit and vers.
Critical strike chance is the weakest secondary stat for fury, because it does nothing during Battle Cry, which is where we put out a lot of our damage, but being the weakest doesn't mean useless. In a hypothetical situation where you can choose 100 haste or 200 crit, the crit would be better.

Items with significantly higher item level will very often end up being upgrades, even if they have bad stats. The extra strength as well as the amount of stats will outweigh the smaller amount of "better" stat.

Now as for Pawn. It does nothing more or less than take each stat, multiply its amount by the provided value of the stat and adding them together.
It does this for both items and tells you how much bigger the number is for the new item compared to the old.

If you are only interested in maximizing haste and mastery, just put in the stat weights:
haste - 1
mastery - 1
crit - 0
vers - 0
strength - 0

If you are interested in maximizing you dps, you should sim your character and provide Pawn with your personal stat weights.
Example for my alt warrior:





This is what Pawn will do (taking my stats from above, since I don't know yours):
Ring 1: 1960 * 32.23 + 1158 * 29.13 = 96,903
Ring 2: 1469 * 24.13 + 1745 * 32.23 = 91,688
Ring 3: 2725 * 24.13 + 1248 * 26.59 = 98,939

As you can see, ring 3 has so much stats (because of its item level), that it ends up being better (in my case by about 9 % compared to ring 2, it might easily be 14 % in yours, I have pretty badly itemized gear).

There are 2 problems that you have to keep in mind with Pawn:

1. Your stat weights change. That's why you have to use your own rather than depend on the defaults.
It also means that swapping an item might change your stat weights a bit and with the new stat weights the old item will suddenly seem better.
You should keep this in mind and use Pawn as a ballpark. If it says that an item is 10 % upgrade, you can be sure that it is decently better. If it says that an item is 0.2 % increase, you should sim both options, because the stat value fluctuations might give you slightly incorrect results and such a small difference isn't conclusive.

2. Special effect aren't taken into effect. Pawn only looks at the stats and multiplies them by their value.
It is therefore sadly completely useless for comparing non-statstick trinkets, tier items, legendaries, or in your case, the Melandrus ring.
If you have any items with effect that aren't flat stats, you will have to sim those manually.

Thanks for the detailed replied. I just simmed my character with ring 3 and it's a dps loss despite pawn saying it's an upgrade. What's the deal?

without ring 3: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...NHancYU2Fmaeo5
with ring 3: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...6rYiXQdfLSoZcZ

Is it purely the effect that outweighs the titanforged 'ugrade' now then?

Also as someone that's pretty clearly new to this: How can I trust the sim results when the dps changes each sim? It seems pointless when I get different results for each sim. How can this help me determine an upgrade?

I'm trying to determine whether these feet I just got are an upgrade but since the dps changes each sim it switches back and forth between an increase and a loss to dps...

Boots 1: 935, 2255 str, 827 haste, 585 mastery
Boots 2 935, 2255 str, 464 crit, 948 haste, 605 speed, socket 200 haste

[Deleted]

You replaced wrong ring with it. I just simmed it for you. I like simming

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...toA5eaBy3TNstX

If you replace your first ring, you get 4k dps upgrade.
10% autoattack damage has some value.

Sim result is just avg of certain number of simulations. As number of iterations increases, so will the fluctuations of end result.

[Deleted]

You replaced wrong ring with it. I just simmed it for you. I like simming

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...toA5eaBy3TNstX

If you replace your first ring, you get 4k dps upgrade.
10% autoattack damage has some value.

Bleh. There's so much good states on that other ring though. If I change that one out I'm going from 35 haste and 39 mastery to 29 and 35%. Feels wrong :s

[Dracodraco]

Thanks for the detailed replied. I just simmed my character with ring 3 and it's a dps loss despite pawn saying it's an upgrade. What's the deal?

without ring 3: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...NHancYU2Fmaeo5
with ring 3: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...6rYiXQdfLSoZcZ

Is it purely the effect that outweighs the titanforged 'ugrade' now then?

Also as someone that's pretty clearly new to this: How can I trust the sim results when the dps changes each sim? It seems pointless when I get different results for each sim. How can this help me determine an upgrade?

I'm trying to determine whether these feet I just got are an upgrade but since the dps changes each sim it switches back and forth between an increase and a loss to dps...

Boots 1: 935, 2255 str, 827 haste, 585 mastery
Boots 2 935, 2255 str, 464 crit, 948 haste, 605 speed, socket 200 haste

It's already been explained but I will repeat: SimC tells you your stat values at this point in time. Say you've got:

10K haste.
6K mastery.
4K crit.
3K vers.

Haste is worth 40 points, mastery 30, crit 20, and vers 10. Simplicity and all.

If you add 1000 points of haste, it is unlikely that the raw gain will be exactly 40000, even though that's what the math says - that's because as you get more haste, the value of the stat diminishes. So at 11000 haste, your weight might be 30, 30, 20, 10 instead. That's what you're seeing here.
In essence: You can only ever know what changing around one point of a stat will result in. You add 1 haste, you add 40 DPS. You add 100, there's no telling (without simming) if that'll be 4000 dps or 2000, because haste suddenly dropped in value due to some random factor.

This is why Pawn and SimC has to be used in synergy; Pawn will tell you if an item looks like it might be an upgrade right now, but SimC will confirm if the stats switching around actually agrees.

[Deleted]

It's already been explained but I will repeat: SimC tells you your stat values at this point in time. Say you've got:

10K haste.
6K mastery.
4K crit.
3K vers.

Haste is worth 40 points, mastery 30, crit 20, and vers 10. Simplicity and all.

If you add 1000 points of haste, it is unlikely that the raw gain will be exactly 40000, even though that's what the math says - that's because as you get more haste, the value of the stat diminishes. So at 11000 haste, your weight might be 30, 30, 20, 10 instead. That's what you're seeing here.
In essence: You can only ever know what changing around one point of a stat will result in. You add 1 haste, you add 40 DPS. You add 100, there's no telling (without simming) if that'll be 4000 dps or 2000, because haste suddenly dropped in value due to some random factor.

This is why Pawn and SimC has to be used in synergy; Pawn will tell you if an item looks like it might be an upgrade right now, but SimC will confirm if the stats switching around actually agrees.

I'm lost, then. Pawn is useless because of what you just said and SimC keeps changing the results I'm getting.

Also I just did a top gear comparison of everything I had and the 950 (ring 3) isn't on here. So apparently everyone that's been saying ring 3 is better in slot 1 is wrong somehow. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...iYfNhMe8tS24YB

[Deleted]

Because your other gear changed, including legendaries. You have cloak legendary now and no 2p set bonus. Stat values changed...
With 2 sims you provided earlier, 3rd ring was better than 1st ring. Now with new gear setup, its not.

But as i said, sim result is just avg of all rimulation runs (default 10000). As you increase number of iterations, the fluctuation of end result should get smaller.

But if you check the end sim result, its better with previous gear + 3rd and 2nd ring. You clearly didnt select all(best) items for "top gear" sim, as you ended up with lower sim result.

And i dont think pawn is useless. Goal is to have your best gear stat values, and then you can at glance see how new items compare with your current equipped stuff. Then you sim again, and if dps is higher, keep new item and get new stat values and replace old ones in pawn.
Its just convenient and gives you quick (and rough) evaluation of new items you get. But in the end you still should sim it.

Gear compare sim is awesome for that. I keep all that pawn said were close/better and then sim all options in gear compare to find best combination.

[skitzin]

I'm lost, then. Pawn is useless because of what you just said and SimC keeps changing the results I'm getting.

Also I just did a top gear comparison of everything I had and the 950 (ring 3) isn't on here. So apparently everyone that's been saying ring 3 is better in slot 1 is wrong somehow. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...iYfNhMe8tS24YB

What he is explaining, or trying to explain, is this:

"This is why "sim your own stat weights to find out which is best for you" is horrible advice - stat weights only show a snapshot in time, and may not project far enough ahead to give an accurate assessment of long-term growth, nor do they account for trading one stat for another. " - Archimtiros

Essentially stat weight simulations have limits due to the way the model works.

This is why many players should encourage you to get familiar with the general trends of stats for the spec and class you play and get familiar with simulating different sets of gear to determine what are true upgrades for your character.

[Deleted]

I'll admit I didn't realize the legendary cloak was equipped there. I don't know why it changed my gear around as I didn't have it equipped. Evidently I did something wrong.

This stuff confuses me.

Edit: So I've swapped my old boots for the new ones and put the 950 ring in slot 1.

It still feels wrong because I remember being told that ilvl means very little and that I had terrible stats at one point. I was told to get haste and mastery.

Before new items: Haste 35%, Mastery 39%
With new 'upgrades': Haste 31%, Mastery 33%

I really hope these tools work. :/

[Deleted]

Haste and mastery before 'upgrades': 32%, 36%
Haste and mastery after 'upgrades': 32%, 32%

You didnt post your other stats like strength/crit/vers so pawn might still be correct.

[Deleted]

You didnt post your other stats like strength/crit/vers so pawn might still be correct.

People have said that the ring is an upgrade in slot 1 so I keep Melandrus and the feet are also apparently an upgrade aswell. This has all been discussed but I'm still a bit wary losing good stats for crit and some versatility though.

- - - Updated - - -

[judgementofantonidas]

I know you shouldn't blindly follow the pawn addon but I thought it was supposed to be at least somewhat helpful. It's not.

I got 2 items last night both of which are apparently upgrades for Fury:

Apparently a 3% upgrade Helm: Mythic Tier Helm (I have no other set piece fyi) 930 ilvl 1162 crit & 686 Haste vs 920 helm 661 crit & 1119 haste

Apparently an 8% upgrade chest: Mythic 930, 1202 crit & 647 Haste vs 920 ilvl, 508 haste & 1272 mastery.

Haste and mastery before 'upgrades': 32%, 36%
Haste and mastery after 'upgrades': 32%, 32%

So what's the point in pawn if all it does is point out which items have a higher item level? That's all it seems to do as with those two 'upgrades' I'm losing a lot of good stats in favour of crit.

I've already been told many times that ilvl means nothing for Fury and to prioritize haste and mastery over everything. Apparently pawn disagrees.

it is not pointing out ilvl. it is pointing out a primary stat upgrade if the secondary stats are not there but it is a higher ilvl. change your stat weights to reflect you feeling that secondary stats are better than primary and it will not do that anymore.

[Phookah]

Well I don't know, I thought it was supposed to have built in stuff. Why does it even have a profile called fury with its own weights if it can't even tell that mastery is better than crit?

Because it's impossible to have correct stat weights by default? Weights change constantly as you gain and lose stats.

[Alvito]

Default. Should I be using own?

There is your answer to why it sucks. You might as well tell everybody hammers suck because the milk falls off of them when you are eating your cereal. A tool isn't any good if you use it incorrectly. Stat weights aren't static even in the same raid with the same gear. You need to understand why each is important on top of finding out your weights then use pawn or other tools like it.

[Swalload]

Well I don't know, I thought it was supposed to have built in stuff. Why does it even have a profile called fury with its own weights if it can't even tell that mastery is better than crit?

It has built in stuff but it's very limited, like other people said, it's supposed to work with simcraft or ask mr.robot, anything that can scan your toon and give pawn a better idea of what each stats actually weigh FOR YOU, because it's not a set in stone value. Even if mastery is your best stats, having 0% haste, 0% crit and all mastery is actually not good.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the default stats weight in pawn actually give vit some weight, which can screw results since nobody gives a shit about vit as a dps, it just comes naturally.

As for the profiles, they're just there as a base, you can modify them, it's just a user friendly option so you don't have to look for it, you can update stats weight in the profile, etc.

[Deleted]

Would really appreciate some help here on what rings to use.

1. Dreamwalker's Band
2. Utgarde Royal Signet
3. Scaled Band of Servitude
4. Jeweled Signet of Melandrus

I'm assuming 3 will be in there as it's listed as BiS.

According to this it should be 3 & 4
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...SXSCfr5wRPudax

but when I put them on rings 1 & 2 show as upgrades on pawn. I'm not sure how to determine the 10% autoattack effect of Melandrus.

Help much appreciated.

[potis]

Would really appreciate some help here on what rings to use.

1. Dreamwalker's Band
2. Utgarde Royal Signet
3. Scaled Band of Servitude
4. Jeweled Signet of Melandrus

I'm assuming 3 will be in there as it's listed as BiS.

According to this it should be 3 & 4
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...SXSCfr5wRPudax

but when I put them on rings 1 & 2 show as upgrades on pawn. I'm not sure how to determine the 10% autoattack effect of Melandrus.

Help much appreciated.

Can you please remove Pawn and simply use the Raid bots top gear function and check yourself?

Stat weights are useless now that, that site exists, just keep using top gear and wear the top ones if you cant understand the class yourself, not an insult, just an advice to make things easier for you.

The simming counts the melandrus 10%, you dont have to do anything apart from using "Top Gear" tool to determine your upgrades.

Also in the end its up to you and how well you understand the class.


Example for me:

Gearset 1 and 25% crit but 38% mastery = 1.452K DPS.
Gearset 2 with different ring and 21% crit and 45% mastery = 1.450K DPS

I wont lose so much % of Mastery from my burst phase in AoE fights because it sims 2kDPS more in single target out of 1.450.000 million while it will make me lose DPS on every other situation.