Building up Crusade with or without Judgment?

[Kobor]

The question is, go for a fast 15 stacks Crusade at all cost ignoring Judgment buff is the better or still worth to use Judgment when other spells (TW,BoJ,Zeal) are up and missing Judgment buff on target?

[Jester Joe]

I can't imagine why you'd want to miss out on the extra damage from Mastery (especially after 7.3's buffs) and the current 2 piece bonus.

I mean, for me that would mean BoJ would be doing 20% less damage, and TV would be doing ~50% less damage, over just throwing out a Judgment in the mix to keep the buffs rolling.

I could be horribly wrong, but I don't see the Haste from Crusade making up for that, since I'd have to be pumping out TVs more than 2x faster to make up for not using Judgment.

[SilenceRedo]

You can cap Crusade over a third of the duration without dropping a single TV outside the window. It's a question I've never did to myself because is not a plausible scenario.

[ThunSaren]

Never ignore judgement, with how much of a dmg addition it is to TV and BoJ, it can't be worth it, you''d get probably 2 more GCDs by ignoring judge on crusade, and loose incredible ammounts of damage.

[Deleted]

The question makes sense, the answer is (not 100% solid but hey too many gearin options what can one guarantee): for the usual gearing scenarios aka 4t20 and around 32% mastery, all traits activated do never try to cast anything outside judge window even when building crusade. For a more detailed opener guide there is an excellent one linked on paladin discord (not able to link it atm).
Tbh only time it was about the same for me was before the new set of traits and when i managed to push mastery at around 12% with some weird setup. Then with cloak on it would make judge quite irrelevaant especially when building crusade.

[killwithpwr]

Only time you should ever cast a finisher without Judgement debuff on target is if the judgement is on a longer CD than what remains on skills that will put you at 3 HP or more (i.e - Judgement has 4 second CD and BoJ has 1 left)
It usually happens on Misstress, either accidentaly judging adds and it doesnt spread to boss in time or when you accidentaly judge while being in the green goo and it misses...

[tss]

Why would you do that when you can reach 15 stacks in one Judgment debuff anyway?

[Kobor]

Why would you do that when you can reach 15 stacks in one Judgment debuff anyway?

I don't have much Haste (around 23%), can not do it in one turn. At 10 stacks, when Judgment debuff need to renew.

[Deleted]

15 stacks are doable in a judgment active time. i would guess with proper haste tho (20-22%)

[Deleted]

Why would you do that when you can reach 15 stacks in one Judgment debuff anyway?

Could u give a breakdown of base haste, leggos and cast sequence (is hero a must as well?) used please ?

[Ravingmad]

The question is, go for a fast 15 stacks Crusade at all cost ignoring Judgment buff is the better or still worth to use Judgment when other spells (TW,BoJ,Zeal) are up and missing Judgment buff on target?

Not worth it. Its a DPS loss. Same rule applies for Justicar's vengence. Yes it gives you 5 stack faster per strike, but you rotation will suffer and TV deal slightly more damage then JV at high lvl.

Adjust your haste so that your opener feels smoother. Some like 22-23% (my haste at the beginning of Legion), now im around 28%, it feels better. Im usually able to fill my "waiting time" with a Wake of Ashes. Or you can reach the GCD cap at 31.5%, but I dont see the point unless you have the gear for it.

[Reith]

Same rule applies for Justicar's vengence. Yes it gives you 5 stack faster per strike, but you rotation will suffer and TV deal slightly more damage then JV at high lvl.

Just chiming in on this part. It's not worth using JV if it's not a Divine Purpose proc for damage on a boss, true, but Judge > AW+TV > JV (DP) > JV (DP) is 14 stacks in 3 GCDs, and that situation makes JV totally worth prioritizing over everything else if you manage to get two DP procs in a row after your first TV. It's situational.

[Eurytos]

TV deal slightly more damage then JV at high lvl.

I'm not sure this is entirely correct. You definitely want to use TV, of course, but the reason isnt high lvl. the reason is all the talents and relics and other %dmg buffs that TV gets that JV doesnt.

[Talvindius]

Not worth it. Its a DPS loss. Same rule applies for Justicar's vengence. Yes it gives you 5 stack faster per strike, but you rotation will suffer and TV deal slightly more damage then JV at high lvl.

The damage difference between JV and TV is pretty significant with a full artifact, the damage between them is similar before traits. 10% from talents, another at least 8% from the artifact itself, even more if you have the Lego cloak.The difference is pretty substantial.

[Ravingmad]

The damage difference between JV and TV is pretty significant with a full artifact, the damage between them is similar before traits. 10% from talents, another at least 8% from the artifact itself, even more if you have the Lego cloak.The difference is pretty substantial.

I should have put slightly in italic... for being sarcastic.

TV deal "slightly" more damage then JV at high lvl.

TV currently does about 15-20% more damage, for 2 HP less. (from in-game numbers). But the more Str you have, the closer the gap gets, as JV is Attack Power (or Str) based, while TV is weapon base. (From in-game test, 6000k more Str reduce the gap by 5%). So its possible that if your Artefact lvl and/or Weapon ilvl is low, but your overall gear is high, JV might do more damage. But I can't really test that part in-game currently. My lvl100-110 is far away in my memories, but I recall that JV use to hit for way more damage than TV.

[Talvindius]

I should have put slightly in italic... for being sarcastic.

TV deal "slightly" more damage then JV at high lvl.

TV currently does about 15-20% more damage, for 2 HP less. (from in-game numbers). But the more Str you have, the closer the gap gets, as JV is Attack Power (or Str) based, while TV is weapon base. (From in-game test, 6000k more Str reduce the gap by 5%). So its possible that if your Artefact lvl and/or Weapon ilvl is low, but your overall gear is high, JV might do more damage. But I can't really test that part in-game currently. My lvl100-110 is far away in my memories, but I recall that JV use to hit for way more damage than TV.

JV hits for double on stunned targets, I remember in world pvp hitting people for over a mil in EN gear.

[killwithpwr]

JV hits for double on stunned targets, I remember in world pvp hitting people for over a mil in EN gear.

Well, on pve bosses and special rares, this effect is useless... So building up Crusade with TV is much more benefitial in those situations

[Talvindius]

Well, on pve bosses and special rares, this effect is useless... So building up Crusade with TV is much more benefitial in those situations

Yes, although you can crush the 1st boss of Seat with JV since it has a stun effect linked to it, although you should use the Highlord ring if you have it and use it during DP procs, 5 HP is not worth the dps difference.