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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Something I posted a couple months ago in a similar thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    The biggest issue I've seen is lack of female applicants for engineering positions. Over the last few months, since ~end of may, I've gone to 4 different recruiting events for my company: UC Berkeley, SF State, Sonoma State, and San Jose State. I'm looking at the sign in sheet from the event I was at this past Tuesday: 54 entries; 51 male, 3 female. That's a lower than usual ratio of men to women, but, across the board, doesn't get much better.

    The bulk of the female engineers I work with are Indians that came to the States via a h1b visa.

    The majority of my female co-workers are in marketing(shocking), sales, or project/program management.

    Edit:
    Also, every year we have an initiative for hiring female engineers.
    You can't force diversity when the diversity isn't there.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    coincidentally, so does programming
    Being a good programmer, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Collegeguy View Post
    It led to the fall of Bioware for sure.
    Hahaha, no. As much as the internet's shitlord division might like to believe that.



    Worth repeating for the 500th time. Prophetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    If I didn't have a post questioning the existence of dinosaurs in my signature, I would quote this post. Writing long papers is harder than being in a STEM field? What a joke.
    I didn't know nobody writes papers in STEM fields!
    Quote Originally Posted by True Anarch View Post
    Never claimed I was a genuis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    I don't give a fuck if cops act shitty towards people, never have.

  4. #24
    I am Murloc! Seramore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    I didn't know nobody writes papers in STEM fields!
    Yeah, apparently writing complex papers only belongs to the Humanities degrees.
    Last edited by Seramore; 2017-10-09 at 06:37 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Programming is rote learning. You could teach a monkey. Given some of the code I've seen, I think they do...

    Literary critique requires insight and understanding.

    For some examples.
    Are you saying there is no such thing as good or bad code? No wonder games these days are so poorly optimized.

    And that humanities isn't about parroting the Professors own opinion back to them?
    Last edited by Strangewayes; 2017-10-09 at 06:43 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    You're delusional if you don't believe that other companies don't have diversity agendas.

    With that said, I don't think Blizzard is guilty of having this agenda. It can be pretty rampant for other companies though, and ones that aren't involved with video gaming. They're lowering themselves and their quality of workers to look good in the public eyes and make it seem that they're fighting a stereotype that doesn't exist.
    Other companies? Sure. Software companies? Maybe only Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon and Apple are in any position to actually act on it.

    They are the "big names" of the computer industry, but they are not all the names by any stretch of the imagination.

    I mean I don't mean to make this about me. But consider my background. I have a B.S. and M.S. in Computer Science and minors in Cognitive Psychology and Robotics. I now work at a Robotics firm. It's not like there are a ton of people with a Robotics minor who did "inverse kinematics" in school or something. They won't have the luxury of choosing based on the color of my skin.

    Graphics is no different. Sure, lots of people fart around with Unity or Unreal Engine. But a college graduate in CS who focused on graphics rendering? Not a lot of those. Maybe a few hundred nationally every year. And they get vacuumed up (Nvidia was a popular internship spot at my university at the time).

    This entire discussion exists only in a broader software industry that has far more competition for hiring than there is. As it stands, foreign born workers grow and grow and grow because there just ain't enough square jawed American Software Engineers from Iowa being made. So it's kind of a moot point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Now that's just patently untrue, it's a highly competitive field like anything related to entertainment. Even with its horrible reputation for working hours, pay etc.
    Ehhhh, I haven't seen anybody in my professional and college circle run towards gaming in years and years.

    Hell the smart ones (in the sense that they had more common sense) went on to be quants for Wall Street. Hard to say "let's make video games", when you can make $250k for Bank of America. Sure you'll hate your life. But you'll buy your parents house for them in a few years. Wish I did that, instead of consulting.

  7. #27
    These quotas are an absolute joke. The consequence will be less qualified women and minorities taking positions while forcing white/male positions to be even more competitive between each other. It's not like there's a sea of highly qualified minority/women being overlooked every time there is a job opening. The rift between white male and quota-boosted minorities will be obvious to everyone, and that reputation will spill over onto the minorities and women who legitimately worked hard and competed to join the company.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Workplace quotas weed out incompetent men and make businesses more efficient.

  9. #29
    Dreadlord Dys's Avatar
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    I like how being sexist and racist in a virtue signaling light is good for the world. It gives me the chuckles.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    Workplace quotas weed out incompetent men and make businesses more efficient.
    I can understand how hiring someone on something completely unrelated to their merit would bring up the standard of workers, definitely.
    Quote Originally Posted by True Anarch View Post
    Never claimed I was a genuis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    I don't give a fuck if cops act shitty towards people, never have.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans Synros's Avatar
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    It's a horrible idea. Nothing good has ever come out of pandering to SJW Identity Politics. The only thing it does, is kill franchises and companies. Marvel did this, and their comics suffered a devastating drop in sales. They're canceling stories left and right now, because they're not even breaking 100 issues sold in some cases. This is a direct result of hiring to meet quotas, instead of hiring for quality. As long as there's "Equality of opportunity", then there's nothing Blizzard needs to worry about.
    Last edited by Synros; 2017-10-09 at 06:55 AM.
    ON WEDNESDAYS WE WEAR PINK

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Programming is rote learning. You could teach a monkey. Given some of the code I've seen, I think they do...

    Literary critique requires insight and understanding.

    For some examples.
    Any CS or Software Engineering degree worth a damn is going to involve complex algorithmic analysis, computational theory and mathematics (amongst others). None of that is "rote learning" or anything that could be taught to a monkey. There are many ways to do the same thing in programming, but discerning and executing the best approach requires a high level understanding of algorithmic efficiency and low level memory management. You don't know what you're taking about even remotely, and it's quite painful reading the ignorant dribble that is your posts.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Being a good programmer, sure.



    Hahaha, no. As much as the internet's shitlord division might like to believe that.
    you don't think so?

    https://www.ea.com/careers/diversity-and-inclusion

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Illuminance View Post
    These quotas are an absolute joke. The consequence will be less qualified women and minorities taking positions while forcing white/male positions to be even more competitive between each other. It's not like there's a sea of highly qualified minority/women being overlooked every time there is a job opening. The rift between white male and quota-boosted minorities will be obvious to everyone, and that reputation will spill over onto the minorities and women who legitimately worked hard and competed to join the company.
    I'll say it again. You talk as if the computer industry has a glut of workers of ANY background.

    You know what would be just great? If more actual white American men went into Computer Science instead of Business Administration or Accounting. Because right now, in the computer industry, everybody we have - that is to say, all Americans of all background combined, plus an enormous foreign born population - cannot remotely fill the job openings there are. It's not even close.

    Nothing would make the businesses of the industry happier if there were actually more White American Men out there to hire. But they don't exist. Because we Americans are bad at math, and bad at science, and expert-level excuse makers at those deficiencies, when compared to our foreign peers.

    So go ahead. Make a White male baby, have grow up and become a software engineer. I guarantee if he works hard like everybody else, he'll have a hell of a career in an industry hungry for talent.

    But therein lies the rub: you must actually have a white male baby.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenswood View Post
    Any CS or Software Engineering degree worth a damn is going to involve complex algorithmic analysis, computational theory and mathematics (amongst others). None of that is "rote learning" or anything that could be taught to a monkey. There are many ways to do the same thing in programming, but discerning and executing the best approach requires a high level understanding of algorithmic efficiency and low level memory management. You don't know what you're taking about even remotely, and it's quite painful reading the ignorant dribble that is your posts.
    You need that for some jobs (and great jobs). But you don't need that for most jobs. You don't even need a CS degree for most software industry jobs.

    I did all that stuff in school. I use much of it now (my current job is a research job). My prior positions I used almost none of it.

    I still think the some of best advice for an aspiring computer scientist is "take good statistics courses for your math requirements", because you'll actually use that.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I'm gonna knee-cap this entire issue for you. You're talking about something that exists, at best, only in theory. In practice, except maybe for the largest firms like Google, it's not a thing.

    I don't work in the Video Game industry. I work in robotics (still, computers). At least on the software side of the game industry (not the art side) people do jump around various subfields in the broader industry.

    You want to make a stink about diversity hiring? You should make a stink about American production of qualified software engineers. It's a joke. It truly is. So much of the company I work at is foreign. Undergrad and grad school was foreign. My company today cannot hire enough qualified people to fill the team openings we have.

    That's why I find it quaint to even discuss, or be remotely "bothered" by any kind of diversity initiative. It's not like the broader software industry is operating at a personnel surplus, particularly of Americans. Even with an enormous foreign born workforce, its a sharp deficit, and the best of the best people are hard to get.

    And on top of that, nobody with a brain is seriously rushing to work in Video Gaming of all things.

    Go look at how many "Senior" engineering jobs Blizzard has open:
    https://careers.blizzard.com/en-us/openings

    Minimum requirements for a Senior Software Engineer?
    "Advanced understanding of C / C++
    A minimum of 3 years’ application programming experience
    Experience working with game engines
    Strong mathematics skills"

    Jesus christ, I had that 10 years ago. Any 24 year old programmer worth a shit would (I'm 34). I've been programming in C++ since I was 14 for fucks sake. And I'm not even special in that regard.

    But there the jobs are, and they linger. Because the video game industry doesn't remotely pay enough to be competitive with other sub-fields. In fact, you'd have to be out of your fucking mind to have a degree and /or post-grad degree and work for Blizzard. Love of game goes far. Wad of money goes further. I'd probably make half what I do applying to a video game company.

    Before we get our pants in a tizzy about *gasp* a field with not enough people in it hiring based on ethnic, racial or sexual background in part, I think the much, much larger issue is why this country produces so many worthless MBAs and so few Masters of Science. Because that's the problem. When there is an actual glut of talent that'll be forced to take low paying Game Industry jobs, then maybe we can talk about how its sorted.
    Exactly. Friend of mine worked for EA at the Tiburon studio. When he told me about the actual amount of coding that goes into creating a game I lost all interest in getting into that field. You've got about the same chance of becoming wealthy selling Mona-Vie juice.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I'll say it again. You talk as if the computer industry has a glut of workers of ANY background.

    You know what would be just great? If more actual white American men went into Computer Science instead of Business Administration or Accounting. Because right now, in the computer industry, everybody we have - that is to say, all Americans of all background combined, plus an enormous foreign born population - cannot remotely fill the job openings there are. It's not even close.
    You don't seem to be addressing me or the OP, which is about the inclusion of quotas targeting American minorities. The effects of the quotas will be felt regardless of whether there is a glut or shortage of American workers in any given field. I don't disagree with what you have to say about the problem with STEM education in the U.S. in general, though.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    IMO all the humanities are harder than "STEM" fields. You have to do a lot of research, write long ass papers and give nuanced answers to questions. And then hope your professor likes what you wrote, because it's all subjective.

    That's why I did maths. You learn the method, apply the method, and your answer is either right or wrong. Homework complete.
    ROFL! Come on man, put some sort of warning in there before saying such ridiculous nonsense, I seriously almost choked on my food here. Granted, it didn't hurt with a laugh today, seeing as how things have gone up until now, but still. "Homework complete"...I seriously hope you're not refering to an actual university, lmfao.

    Anyways, I've personally taken a LOT of courses on university, in both natural sciences and the humanities, and, well..."all the humanities being harder than 'STEM'-fields", is propably the single dumbest thing I've ever read on these forums. At least that was, at least seemingly so, an entirely serious statement. And there's no need for using anecdotes really, the entire notion is quite literally ridiculous.

    Edit: Programming certainly isn't my forte though, so I have no opinion about that particular field being easier/harder than something else. But STEM-fields such as biology, medicine, physics, chemistry being easier than the humanities? Again, lmfao.
    Last edited by Sama-81; 2017-10-09 at 08:09 AM.

  18. #38
    It's hit/miss. I'm personally against diversity initiatives because they're extremely discriminatory imo, but if there are actual benefits then obviously a company would wanna get in on that. My main problem with them is that the benefits of them have never really been talked about as far as I know (maybe I live under a rock), but a few years ago companies started doing this and I've never heard any proponents cite specific studies or research linking diversity with work force improvements and basically fall back on "diversity is good" as a mantra.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Cheese View Post
    Third post in is why a programmers union should exist.
    Yeah, you can have your programmer's union. The day when IT actually gets shit done right, instead of releasing bug infested crap software and claiming it's a great tool for your workflow. If engineering had the same quality standards IT has, we'd never have a plane leave the ground. Think about that. Programmers earn too much already, considering that they release buggy software 9 times out of 10.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynny View Post
    It's hit/miss. I'm personally against diversity initiatives because they're extremely discriminatory imo, but if there are actual benefits then obviously a company would wanna get in on that. My main problem with them is that the benefits of them have never really been talked about as far as I know (maybe I live under a rock), but a few years ago companies started doing this and I've never heard any proponents cite specific studies or research linking diversity with work force improvements and basically fall back on "diversity is good" as a mantra.
    That's because there really aren't any. You can hire a trans Indian handicap bisexual to your workforce, but that doesn't mean they are going to swoop in with the magical 'efficient workflow of their people'. It's just pseudoscience they came up with in an attempt to give diversity some actual merit.

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