Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Bakis]

Relax, the tax cut was just spending-cuts. Sometimes you need to spend to boost the economy ya know.
It's all under control and will work out wonderfully for the American people (if they are the top 3%).

[Paranoid Android]

I formally left the Republican Party in June 2018. Just before the whole kids-in-cages thing took off. I'm a registered independent.

I

Damn Skroe, you waited until 2018 (sarcasm). I would have left November 9th, 2106.

[Skroe]

Damn Skroe, you waited until 2018 (sarcasm). I would have left November 9th, 2106.

I explained why it took so long in a couple of posts:

Look. I realize that this being the internet and this particularly being a forum, many people wear identifications like they're fans of a team. Being a Democrat or Republican translating to little different than being a Red Sox or Yankees fan.

That is not me. I've been a registered Republican since 2002. I was in political groups in high school and through college. When I moved back to Massachusetts and was no longer a student, I started to attend local and State-level Republican Party functions. And keep in mind when we're talking local Republican Party functions... we're talking about people who live in my town. Neighbors. Pretty alright people, not talking head muppets on TV or the crazies in this forum. I've taken part in political activity. I've donated a lot of money. Something like $2000 to State and Local candidates in just 2016.

I remained in this long because I believe in institutions and the Republican Party is historically a great one that's been progressively undermined by small men that betrayed America's principles drip by drip. The irony is, of course, I could only do so much... the Massachusetts Republican Party is largely what I think would be an excellent model of the national Republican Party. But that's not to be. I wanted to save a great thing... a think I've been a part of since I was old enough to vote... that I identified with for many years. That is filled with people I respect.

This is no minor decision. This is not a separation. This is a divorce. When Donald Trump was nominated two years ago, I almost quit. I didn't because I was talked out of it by the local Republican Party chair at one of our bi-monthly meetings. I didn't because I thought Republicans would stop him from the inside and would need people to stand up for our national principles. I almost quit after Charlottesville last year... only reason I didn't is because I convinced myself that destroying Trump would require a fifth column within the Republican Party.

The past 10 days Trump has laid down any claim to being anything other than President of the Deplorables. He is not the leader of over half of America.... over half that would throw a brick at his head rather than shake his hand. He is not the leader of the free world. And Republicans, at all levels, have allowed and excused his systemic undermining of American interests, power, rule of law and traditions.

I want nothing to do with this party or these people anymore. They're monsters. They aren't conservatives. They're authoritarians. They're the kind of thing that our children 25 years from now are going to look at us with utter contempt for even allowing to happen. And we'll tell them why: Trump happened because 60 million Americans were extraordinarily weak at a time it called for them to be strong and honor the founders's highest ideals.

But yeah, I've quit it. Mailed a nice nasty letter and everything. And keep in mind, the letter is not some forum rant but a formal thing to real people. It's basically telling people I respect and see semi-regularly IRL that as far as politics go, I want nothing to do with them, their party, their President and will be giving my money and time to their wreck their insane ambitions.

I don't see myself ever becoming a Republican again. Not in it's current form with any of it's current leadership. That is why I waited. This is a careful decision without a take-back, not an emotional one I'll change my mind on next week. Yet I'm certainly not going to become a Democrat. I do not want for this country what they want. And I will keep advocating and one day again voting for reform-minded conservative principles. But until then my voting interests are singular: will it stop Trump and the Trump Party?

But yeah. For me? It's a bit more than updating my voter registration. It's a big deal for me. It's a big deal spending 16 years seeing a party as an ally and coalition on many issues, only now to have to completely change and think of them as my great adversary.

But then again, in truth, I'm not abandoning them. In their lust for power and dalliance with authoritarianism, they betrayed me. I eagerly await the opportunity to make them pay for it.

For what it's worth, I went to Massachusetts Republican Party gatherings at the State level and more commonly at the local level. Pretty much as ground-level view as you can get.

It changed drastically. A lot of people I liked and respected stopped going, especially since 2014. A lot of people I have nothing in common with became regulars.

Recall that once upon a time, the Republican Party, and conservatism, were the party/political philosophy of the educated. Of the elite. While that changed across the country, to a degree Massachusetts still was that. The Massachusetts Democratic party, until recently, very much was the working class party, while the Republican Party was the suburbanite, professional, engineer (lot of those here), investor and so forth party.

That changed. MAGA and proto-MAGA people started streaming in. The people have had anything in common with bailed. The head of the local Republican committee, who I like a lot, tried to keep me and some others from leaving since 2016. Frankly, she should leave too and I told her as such when I finally said I had had enough.

I'm very curious how many life long Republicans remain Republican because of something exactly like that. Not because of the national party, but because local party members and officials are friends and make a much better case for everything, and you don't want to screw them and those relationships. I bet many.

But yeah, I can attest to, in the living breathing local republican party, the people who read John Locke and Edmund Burke in their New England Prep Schools and college (like me) have been replaced by people who read Breitbart. It actually happened, and everyone with half a brain said fuck it between 2013 and last summer.

[Zan15]

I formally left the Republican Party in June 2018. Just before the whole kids-in-cages thing took off. I'm a registered independent.

I

So basically you are an embarrassed republican hiding with the independents?

[solinari6]

So basically you are an embarrassed republican hiding with the independents?

Once a democrat is president, and the republicans start talking like republicans again, he'll probably switch back.

[Benggaul]

So basically you are an embarrassed republican hiding with the independents?

What? No, I think what he's saying is the current Republican party is not the party he signed up for all those years ago. He has principles and they crossed the line, so he's out. I'm sure there are also Democrats feeling the same way right now. Stop treating politics like it's a team sport.

Once a democrat is president, and the republicans start talking like republicans again, he'll probably switch back.

Really, what the hell is wrong with you guys that you feel the need to shit on one of the relative few in that party who saw things were turning to shit and decided that's not for them? Should he have stayed behind to suck Trump's cock like the rest of the GOP? I disagree with Skroe on a lot of political and military views but he's not a fucking drone.

Fuck, fight the real enemy, not the people who woke up to what the GOP was turning into and are fighting against it.

[solinari6]

Really, what the hell is wrong with you guys that you feel the need to shit on one of the relative few in that party who saw things were turning to shit and decided that's not for them? Should he have stayed behind to suck Trump's cock like the rest of the GOP? I disagree with Skroe on a lot of political and military views but he's not a fucking drone.

Geez it wasn't meant like that at all ... just that being independent gets you nowhere. If he really has traditional republican values, all I'm saying is that when the republicans start touting traditional republican values, he'll probably switch back. And republicans are "best" at being republicans when they are out of power, ie, a dem president.

[Zan15]

What? No, I think what he's saying is the current Republican party is not the party he signed up for all those years ago. He has principles and they crossed the line, so he's out. I'm sure there are also Democrats feeling the same way right now. Stop treating politics like it's a team sport.


.

He should have stayed in the party and pushed for change, fought against their direction.

Instead most likely he's now an "independent" who will still vote republican.

[Skroe]

He should have stayed in the party and pushed for change, fought against their direction.

Instead most likely he's now an "independent" who will still vote republican.

You don't know the first thing about what you're talking about. Legitimately not the first thing. You didn't experience it personally, and you can keep our arrogant presumption about the way things should be as to my affairs to yourself.

You want an education rather than presume my motives? Read this post. It's legitimately like 6 posts up.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51429217

[Benggaul]

Geez it wasn't meant like that at all ... just that being independent gets you nowhere. If he really has traditional republican values, all I'm saying is that when the republicans start touting traditional republican values, he'll probably switch back. And republicans are "best" at being republicans when they are out of power, ie, a dem president.

I'm not going to put words in Skroe's mouth because he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself, but even for me who has never gone anywhere NEAR the Republican party it became crystal clear that the party as a whole had changed the past few years. I doubt it'll ever truly be "traditional" in the sense you mean ever again. This isn't just a motley crew of Tea Party scamps with crazy ideas--the entire fucking GOP has become complicit in Trump's madness. There's no real coming back from that.

He should have stayed in the party and pushed for change, fought against their direction.

Instead most likely he's now an "independent" who will still vote republican.

If you had read his post it sounded like he was trying to do just that for a while. There's only so much you can do. If you took a peek at the news you'd see he's not the only one leaving the party because it's gone completely ape shit. When things are so deeply entrenched as they are now there's no real fix for it except to start over again somewhere else. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new party form from those who left the Republicans with their "traditional" values.

And I'm an Independent who votes Democrat 100% of the time (so far). Do you have a problem with me too or are you cushioned by the double-standard? I vote for those candidates whose views most closely match mine. I suspect most independents do.

EDIT: Skroe posted before I finished mine, so what he said. :P

[Felya]

So basically you are an embarrassed republican hiding with the independents?

More of hitting the litmus test that GOP could no longer pass. Which is strange for me personally... there is no and never will be a party that agrees with me 100%. As a result, I will never join or claim to be part of a party. I might share parts of one and the others, but I don’t see the point of giving up my autonomy, to be represented by some party of people I wouldn’t even want to have debate with.

[solinari6]

it became crystal clear that the party as a whole had changed the past few years. I doubt it'll ever truly be "traditional" in the sense you mean ever again. This isn't just a motley crew of Tea Party scamps with crazy ideas--the entire fucking GOP has become complicit in Trump's madness. There's no real coming back from that.

I'm pretty sure that the Republican party leaders know that the trajectory they are on is not sustainable. I would be on the look out for a serious course correction once Trump is out of the picture.

[some guy]

I'm pretty sure that the Republican party leaders know that the trajectory they are on is not sustainable. I would be on the look out for a serious course correction once Trump is out of the picture.

Didn't their own post mortem of the 2012 election say they needed to be more inclusive of minorities, women, and the LGBTQ community? They kinda went the opposite direction.

[Zan15]

You don't know the first thing about what you're talking about. Legitimately not the first thing. You didn't experience it personally, and you can keep our arrogant presumption about the way things should be as to my affairs to yourself.

You want an education rather than presume my motives? Read this post. It's legitimately like 6 posts up.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51429217

I read it

you almost lost me at:
" because I believe in institutions and the Republican Party is historically a great one "...laughable at best.

Then you proved me right at:
"Yet I'm certainly not going to become a Democrat. I do not want for this country what they want. And I will keep advocating and one day again voting for reform-minded conservative principles. But until then my voting interests are singular: will it stop Trump and the Trump Party?

So you voted for Hilary?
You voting for Biden et all?

- - - Updated - - -

And I'm an Independent who votes Democrat 100% of the time (so far). Do you have a problem with me too or are you cushioned by the double-standard? I vote for those candidates whose views most closely match mine. I suspect most independents do.

P

So why not commit fully to the democrat party? is it a cool thing to say you are an independent when you clearly are not?

[Acidbaron]

He should have stayed in the party and pushed for change, fought against their direction.

Instead most likely he's now an "independent" who will still vote republican.

Bullshit, those who stayed in that party were bullied out, disgraced and worse once the fuckhead called trump took over, moderation was gone, common sense was gone, there was no pushback movement.

Because in todays politics its all about optics, not facts but feelings. It is rather embarrassing to you that a person not in the US has to point that out, the few that tried didn't get re elected and the rest just left as they saw there was no change, the rest turned into even worse versions of themselves and became yes men, yes men for racists, misogynists, nazis, incels and so forth as this forum often produces primes examples off.

[Benggaul]

So why not commit fully to the democrat party? is it a cool thing to say you are an independent when you clearly are not?

Because the Democrats do not fully represent who I am or my views. Simple as that. They're just as beholden to the rich as the Republicans are though they like to pretend they aren't. Plenty of Democrat votes in Washington are paid for by big business, and that's a small part of what hurt Hillary in 2016. Now, did I vote for Hillary? You betcha. I don't particularly like her, but she was OBVIOUSLY the better candidate of the two (and yes, sorry, I do believe voting for the others was just throwing your vote away; it's a two-party system regardless of whether or not we like it). Trump has been a fucking bigoted dirtbag for longer than I've been alive. Clinton at least did SOME things I could get behind with the added benefit of actually knowing how government works. No brainer.

And there's NO fucking point to "fully committing" oneself to a political party. Absolutely none. In the past I could have seen myself voting for a moderate Republican over a Sanders-type Democrat--though that never came close to happening. In the future I wouldn't be surprised if the Democrats become so splintered they're unable to cobble together a good candidate while the Republicans put forth Trump 2.0: someone just plain fucking evil like Trump but with some actual brains to pull it off.

I won't go into it further here because I think it's probably getting the thread off-topic, but berating someone for being an Independent is just plain fucking stupid. End of.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Well, the logic is sound - since new EU-inspired asylum rules require them requesting asylum in first safe country they will be stuck in Mexico if they cannot travel to US to claim asylum there directly.

How exactly is the logic sound? How does trump think these country’s will stop people from leaving? Lock up any one trying to leave? Shoot people who come to the border?

It sounds like trump wants to give even more people legitimate reasons to flee and seek asylum.

[Pannonian]

How exactly is the logic sound? How does trump think these country’s will stop people from leaving? Lock up any one trying to leave? Shoot people who come to the border?

It sounds like trump wants to give even more people legitimate reasons to flee and seek asylum.

I can tell you how it works here in Europe: it doesn't. The whole Dublin scheme is a scam basically, and it became painfully obvious in 2014. Since then we have been trying to find a better solution. I'm sure a prudent president would learn from our mistakes, but then again...

[Shalcker]

How exactly is the logic sound? How does trump think these country’s will stop people from leaving? Lock up any one trying to leave? Shoot people who come to the border?

No, it's simple question - "did you get through safe country? did you ask for asylum there?"
...and if they didn't their application gets turned down in prompt (last come - first served) manner and they get deported.

If they lie that's a crime that can get them deported as well.

It sounds like trump wants to give even more people legitimate reasons to flee and seek asylum.

"Seeking" doesn't mean "getting it", that's the point.

Rules for obtaining asylum are decided by current administration.

[Thekri]

So why not commit fully to the democrat party? is it a cool thing to say you are an independent when you clearly are not?

Because "Fully committing" to one of our political parties is what got the country in this mess in the first place. Both major political parties are full of corrupt assholes that stuff their pockets full of lobbyist cash and parade hypocritical "morality" in front of their voters while ignoring the important issues in favor of partisan circuses.

Unlike Skroe, I was never a member of the Republican party, but I did support mostly Republican Candidates before 2016. I never considered myself a Republican then, and I don't consider myself a democrat now, despite voting straight blue last election. I honestly don't care what you want to call that, call me an Independent, call me a Democrat, call me a Never-Trump Republican, I frankly don't care. I am voting democrat because they are not currently firebombing ever decent political norm that this country ever had, not because I actually like the democrats particularly.

It isn't about Trump really either, although he is horrible. It is about a party that sold what little morals it ever had to chase victory at the expense of every shred of human dignity and decency. When Trump is gone there still won't be a thing worth saving in the Republican party at this point.