1. #27761
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Attorneys working with foreign law enforcement agencies on former US officials need security clearance? That sounds ridiculous.

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    There was no "asking to fabricate" (only to investigate), and there was no extortion (as Ukraine wasn't even aware that anything was delayed).

    There is no definition of "conspiracy theory" that could preclude any attorney from working on gathering evidence about it.
    Well, he isn't a law enforcement officer of any note, and pretty soon, at the rate he is going, he won't be a lawyer anymore either.

  2. #27762
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They need to be representatives of American law enforcement agencies, that's for sure.
    Could you point me out which part of US law requires it?

    William Barr would count, Rudy Giuliani wouldn't. That's why the Australia calls are less important, legally, it just sets a base for how absolutely fucking crazy the conspiracies that these jackasses believe are.
    There was crazy conspiracy theory everyone believed in that Trump was Russian agent and two years were spent investigating it.

    Certainly they are entitled to exploring their own conspiracy theories after that.

    The conspiracies they believe are literally the things that will get them kicked out of office, because they're dumb enough to not only believe them, but pursue them, at the risk of our own national security apparatus.
    They cannot risk following security apparatus they cannot trust. Which is their investigation of investigation is about.

  3. #27763
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Could you point me out which part of US law requires it?

    There was crazy conspiracy theory everyone believed in that Trump was Russian agent and two years were spent investigating it.

    Certainly they are entitled to exploring their own conspiracy theories after that.

    They cannot risk following security apparatus they cannot trust. Which is their investigation of investigation is about.
    We know he is. He owes TONS of money to Russians, Russian banks and they even might have cosigned his loans. He also colluded at least twice with them during the campaign, but there wasn't evidence that he did because apparently Manafort didn't want to get whacked if he rolled over on Trump. So, no, it wasn't a conspiracy theory when there was evidence of such actions. Meanwhile there is no evidence that Biden did anything illegal, and Hunter Biden wasn't even working for the company when it was being investigated.

  4. #27764
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Attorneys working with foreign law enforcement agencies on former US officials need security clearance? That sounds ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There was no "asking to fabricate" (only to investigate), and there was no extortion (as Ukraine wasn't even aware that anything was delayed).

    There is no definition of "conspiracy theory" that could preclude any attorney from working on gathering evidence about it.
    If you're going to shit post about US politics at least learn the basics.

    The AG is the highest law enforcement officer in the country. Not the president. The president does not conduct or start investigations.

    As I said before, these are the crimes Trump committed:
    Conspiracy to defraud the United States for making up a fake investigation for personal gain.
    Campaign finance violation for asking a foreign country to help in an election.
    Soliciting a bribe from a foreign nation.

  5. #27765
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    If you're going to shit post about US politics at least learn the basics.
    The AG is the highest law enforcement officer in the country. Not the president. The president does not conduct or start investigations.
    What being "highest" has anything to do with it?

    You're telling me that no attorney can use or act as private investigator to pursue probable case, and has to defer to official law enforcement agencies all the time? Sounds equally ridiculous.

  6. #27766
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    What being "highest" has anything to do with it?

    You're telling me that no attorney can use or act as private investigator to pursue probable case, and has to defer to official law enforcement agencies all the time? Sounds equally ridiculous.
    Neither Trump nor Giuliani are attorneys for the US government. So yes, that's what I'm telling you.

  7. #27767
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    We know he is. He owes TONS of money to Russians, Russian banks and they even might have cosigned his loans.
    Well, why aren't you pursuing that line of inquiry?

    He also colluded at least twice with them during the campaign, but there wasn't evidence that he did because apparently Manafort didn't want to get whacked if he rolled over on Trump. So, no, it wasn't a conspiracy theory when there was evidence of such actions. Meanwhile there is no evidence that Biden did anything illegal, and Hunter Biden wasn't even working for the company when it was being investigated.
    You mean Ukrainian investigation about Ukrainian law violations again, not US investigation (and probably not UK investigation either, as that happened during time Hunter Biden was part of company board).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    Neither Trump nor Giuliani are attorneys for the US government. So yes, that's what I'm telling you.
    Why do they have to be attorneys for US government specifically to work with law enforcement overseas?

  8. #27768
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Why do they have to be attorneys for US government specifically to work with law enforcement overseas?
    Because they're using Trump's presidential powers to use it and doing it to interfere with an election. Seriously?

  9. #27769
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    Because they're using Trump's presidential powers to use it and doing it to interfere with an election. Seriously?
    You have to be US government attorney to interfere with election? This makes no sense.

    And to use what? So far it's just fact-finding.

    How exactly being president precludes using private lawyer where appropriate? Including to discover dirt on their opponents?

    Wouldn't using official agencies also be abuse of his power in this case?

  10. #27770
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    What being "highest" has anything to do with it?

    You're telling me that no attorney can use or act as private investigator to pursue probable case, and has to defer to official law enforcement agencies all the time? Sounds equally ridiculous.
    No, they can't. They aren't detectives, or police officers,

  11. #27771
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You have to be US government attorney to interfere with election? This makes no sense.

    And to use what? So far it's just fact-finding.

    How exactly being president precludes using private lawyer where appropriate? Including to discover dirt on their opponents?

    Wouldn't using official agencies also be abuse of his power in this case?
    Yeah, troll, "Ukraine, investigate the Bidens" is just "fact-finding"

    Don't you have your own country's corruption to defend instead of defending it in other countries too?

  12. #27772
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    No, they can't. They aren't detectives, or police officers,
    Certainly attorneys can act as private investigators where they don't need for specialized services?

  13. #27773
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Well, why aren't you pursuing that line of inquiry?

    You mean Ukrainian investigation about Ukrainian law violations again, not US investigation (and probably not UK investigation either, as that happened during time Hunter Biden was part of company board).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Why do they have to be attorneys for US government specifically to work with law enforcement overseas?
    Because I am not an investigator. But They are pursuing this line of inquiry. The House is going after his taxes and his banking records from Deutsche Bank. You know, the bank that Russian launders money through.

    And the Ukrainian investigation found nothing into Biden or his son.

  14. #27774
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    Yeah, troll, "Ukraine, investigate the Bidens" is just "fact-finding"
    So far. It might get different once they actually find something actionable.

    Don't you have your own country's corruption to defend instead of defending it in other countries too?
    I'm just trying to make sense of your system, and you seem to be equally confused about it.

  15. #27775
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Certainly attorneys can act as private investigators where they don't need for specialized services?
    No, they can't.

  16. #27776
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    No, they can't.
    Could you point me out which part of US law specifically forbids that?

  17. #27777
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    Can someone please tell it that illegally withholding public funds for failing to comply with a "private investigator" is bribery and that is actually the issue here, not whether or not Giuliani was operating legally (he wasn't).

    Stg you people fall for the most basic Soviet-era tricks sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #27778
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You have to be US government attorney to interfere with election? This makes no sense.

    And to use what? So far it's just fact-finding.

    How exactly being president precludes using private lawyer where appropriate? Including to discover dirt on their opponents?

    Wouldn't using official agencies also be abuse of his power in this case?
    He doesn't have the right to to ask a foreign country to open an investigation into a political rival for no reason. Trump doesn't have the right to send his personal lawyer "fact finding" in a foreign country demanding their cooperation in exchange for the support they need to continue existing when half their country is facing pro-russia movements for already disproven conspiracies regarding his political rivals because in addition to Biden he seems to also think he's going to find Hillarys emails in Ukraine.

  19. #27779
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeones View Post
    He doesn't have the right to to ask a foreign country to open an investigation into a political rival for no reason.
    There is a reason - persistent rumours.

    Trump doesn't have the right to send his personal lawyer "fact finding" in a foreign country demanding their cooperation in exchange for the support they need to continue existing when half their country is facing pro-russia movements for already disproven conspiracies regarding his political rivals because in addition to Biden he seems to also think he's going to find Hillarys emails in Ukraine.
    If he truly thinks that way, why shouldn't he be allowed to check wherever it's true?

    There also was no explicit "exchange" in that call.

    And as far as "implicit" exchange goes, everyone in Ukraine also understood that paying Biden's son and listening to his other demands is one of necessary steps to get those billions of aid.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-10-01 at 06:57 AM.

  20. #27780
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    There is a reason - persistent rumours.

    If he truly thinks that way, why shouldn't he be allowed to check wherever it's true?

    There also was no explicit "exchange" in that call.
    There was no persistent rumors that I am aware of. And I unfortunately am aware of some amount of the qanon nonsense.

    And if he wanted to find out if it's true, he has staff he can ask because they already have the answer. He doesn't get to ask another foreign leader for a personal favor then try to hide the information on a server intended essentially to protect spies not hide his dirty laundry.

    The only part of the whistleblower complaint that Trump didn't feel fit to prove on his own initiative is the part where Ukraine was told beforehand what the call was about and that they needed to play ball. And he did block the funds which gets us most of the way to proving that claim.

    The contents of the phone phone call is unjustifiable and blocking funding that was approved by congress is unjustifiable.

    And if Trump wanted to put up the appearance of actually having a real investigation it would require one of our agencies to open an investigation and then request assistance from the appropriate agencies of the Ukrainian government. It, once again, does not involve Trump asking a personal favor of a foreign leader he is going to block congressional approved funding for that is important to the continued existence of that nation. And a legitimate investigation does not involve the president, and it does not involve him trying to hide the investigation in the most secure location available to him. The only reason he could possibly be trying to hide it is so that it appears Ukraine is opening an investigation on their on initiative to smear Biden in a way that Comey ruined Hillarys chances of winning with how narrow thin Trumps victory was.

    This is a bigger deal than water gate.

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