Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Benggaul]

and 44,845 now. So...um...yeah. Fuck. Things were actually getting better.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ lists a new high of over 2800 deaths yesterday. I said it before, and I still mean it: I hate it when I'm right.

It also has the up-to-date total at 45,340. It's going to blow past 50k before we even get to the weekend.

[Breccia]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ lists a new high of over 2800 deaths yesterday.

I'm sticking with JH purely for consistency. It says 45,063 which isn't a lot better. Using my earlier post, that's +2,755 in the last 24 hours.

Even if today happens to be the inflection point, we'd hit 90,000 or so. Every life saved by stay-at-home measures and medical equipment is good, but, that's not a lot lower than the 100,000 we were hoping for before such measures were made so strict.

[Benggaul]

I'm sticking with JH purely for consistency. It says 45,063 which isn't a lot better. Using my earlier post, that's +2,755 in the last 24 hours.

I get that. Even so the difference between the two is about 10 deaths so it's essentially in the same ballpark. I just use my source since it's constantly updating and also gives links to official statements (also for the Netherlands--which also had a spike in deaths yesterday, though not a new high, at least).

I think that if things keep going the way they're going 100k is going to become the minimum...especially since we've reached this many BEFORE some states start lifting restrictions when there's not enough safeguarding in place.

Fuck, I better get an invite to the Shadowlands alpha soon so I can find something to take my mind off of this for a while. I was already a chronic fretter before this shit started kicking off. Now I spend half of every day wondering if my parents are being cautious enough (my mother works for a hospital and is therefore essential; she's also creeping up on 70) or if I'm going to infect my wife who has a couple medical issues already.

[Breccia]

I get that. Even so the difference between the two is about 10 deaths so it's essentially in the same ballpark.

Oh, absolutely. I've just been using JH so long that I wouldn't be doing apples-to-apples if I swapped. I think everyone else is using your source, too.

[Canpinter]

Pretty sure the states will tell Crooked Bill to go fuck himself and the horse he rode in on.

Some will, republican governors will use it as an excuse to lift all measures.

[Benggaul]

Some will, republican governors will use it as an excuse to lift all measures.

Not all. Hogan, governor of Maryland, has been one of the Republican governors who also see Trump as a giant jackass. He's been fighting him over the measures there, lately because Trump doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to test centers in Maryland. At this point I have to hesitate in calling him a Republican because he sure doesn't fit the current standard in many regards.

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I've been saying this for months. Spray the protesters with permanent dye from water cannons and kick them the fuck out if they show up at hospitals for treatment on covid-19 like symptoms.

Can't do that. Doctors (and nurses? I think they take the Nightingale Pledge) swear an oath to help and do no harm. Turning away sick people would be doing them harm.

[Benggaul]

Within hours of Trump signing the bill McConnell handed him, McConnell suddenly remembered the deficit exists and backed away from Phase Four.

In other words, I 100% called it. The Democrats would never have gotten what they wanted, if they hadn't held the line and insisted that PPP and hospitals got what they needed as more money went out to businesses as well.

Sorry, state governments. McConnell says you're on your own.

One blip in there I find kind of funny: Rand Paul "offered a motion to allow remote voting, but McConnell blocked it." Gee, wonder why Rand Paul would be in favor of that.

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Station guards at the hospital door and have them be doing the turning away.

In the end that would do more harm than good as people got desperate. I agree in principle: fuck those assholes. But the reality is refusing them treatment would likely result in worse things happening.

[s_bushido]

Station guards at the hospital door and have them be doing the turning away.

As cathartic as it may be, it's both impractical and unethical...

[Zaktar]

There is nothing ethical about the way the US health insurance system works. This would be small issue compared to it.

So the right way to fix things is to be less ethical. Got it.

[Breccia]

I don't know which is better:

1) That the article is called Fox News falls out of love with hydroxychloroquine, or
2) That it's on CNN.

Numbers from Media Matters, a progressive media watchdog group, give a better idea of just how obsessed Fox was with the drug. From March 23 to April 6, Fox News personalities and guests mentioned hydroxychloroquine nearly 300 times. But that's changed in recent days. Media Matters found that between April 16 to April 20 mentions of the drug dropped 77% compared to the previous five-day period.

During Tuesday's White House briefing, Trump — who repeatedly asked what Americans had to lose by taking the drug — was asked about the new VA study. He pleaded ignorance. "I don't know of the report," Trump said. He promised the White House will be "looking at it."

One of the top guests to promote the drug on Fox News was Dr. Mehmet Oz, the celebrity cardiac surgeon whose medical recommendations has been called into serious question in the past. Despite not being formally employed by Fox News, Oz became a fixture on the network, using his appearances to tout hydroxychloroquine and catching Trump's attention while doing so.

So I called a spokesperson for Oz on Tuesday and left a message asking if he has any comment on the new study. I didn't hear back. Oz has also not been on Fox News quite as much in recent days. I didn't see him in prime time Tuesday night, and it seems he's only done a pair of "Fox & Friends" hits this week...

You could almost hear the chortles of unabashed glee coming from the editing room.

Just for fun, I did a Google search for "foxnews.com" "hydroxychloroquine" and restricted it to the last 24 hours. I found two things of note:

1) Controversial coronavirus treatment hydroxychloroquine should be used, 25 percent of doctors say: survey -- 9AM Tuesday

“Despite the superstorm of controversy surrounding hydroxychloroquine, it still remains the leading treatment option for severe patients and is even being used in milder cases and patients who are simply suspected of COVID," an anonymous emergency medicine physician on Sermo said in the release obtained by Fox News. "At this stage with so little evidence, doctors have very limited options.”

And then!

2) COVID-19 treatment hydroxychloroquine showed no benefit, more deaths in VA virus study -- 9 hours later, updated 6 hours after that

An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone. These findings highlight the importance of awaiting the results of ongoing prospective, randomized, controlled studies before widespread adoption of these drugs

"Wow, they changed their mind a lot in those nine hours."

No they didn't.

FOX News, like other news sites, has a tendency to put in related links into their stories. Not complaining, makes sense.

Except this time. In the 2) story are the following headline/links which I swear I am not making up:

CLINICAL TRIAL OF POTENTIAL CORONAVIRUS TREATMENT HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE BEGINS, NIH SAYS

CORONAVIRUS PATIENT SAYS HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE SAVED HIS LIFE

THERE'S DRUG COMBO TO SHORTEN CORONAVIRUS, FRENCH RESEARCHERS SAY <----- see below

NEW YORK STATE WILL START CORONAVIRUS DRUG TRIALS (yep, same stuff)

Of note: the same story also mentioned the French study saying the drug combo didn't work and was harmful. But they didn't link that headline. Nope. They linked something from March Fucking 20th that has since been concluded.

Trump supporters, you have 24 hours to pick one of these two options.

1) Admit that FOX News pushed unfounded good news about hydroxychloroquine to the front pages, and that it was a mistake, based on current evidence that it doesn't appear to be helpful.

or

2) Lose the ability to call CNN fake news ever again.

Failure to decide in 24 hours means I get to pick for you, and also, it means you're a coward.

[PrimiOne]

Hey, once you fuck things up that bad, the only rational course of action is to see how far you can go.

You can't deny medical treatment but ...putting them in a low priority list? Hell Yeah.

Protest all that you want but realize that in a situation where health system is collapsed and the triage needs to choose between the guy who stayed at home and got it because there's absolutely no way to avoid at 100% no matter what you do over the guy who held a fucking "I need a haircut" banner in a protest that claimed the virus is a lie....if doctors needs to choose it's just cosmic justice to tell them: "The responsible guy goes first".

Since the virus is a lie, and the health system is not going to collapse and they are not gonna need any kind of treatment ( they have the Jesus vaccine...) I'm pretty sure this not a problem for them.

But anyway I'm not being serious...it's the medicine responsibility to treat irresponsible (as paradoxic as it seems): we don't tell smokers with lung cancer "You got what you deserve". Treating people with a high risk behavior is a burden we must accept.

[Draco-Onis]

Hey, once you fuck things up that bad, the only rational course of action is to see how far you can go.

Letting them back in the general population where they will spread the disease to innocent people is not a smart move.

[Breccia]

Well. Hasn't it been a special fucking morning for tweets.

First:

I will be signing my Executive Order prohibiting immigration into our Country today. In the meantime, even without this order, our Southern Border, aided substantially by the 170 miles of new Border Wall & 27,000 Mexican soldiers, is very tight - including for human trafficking!

Again, Trump is lying. Not even FOX News backs him up.

Of that, 125 miles of new wall in place of what CBP calls dilapidated or outdated designs. Two miles has been built where no barriers previously existed. Meanwhile, 11 miles of a secondary system were constructed in place of old designs, and one mile where none previously existed.

The answer is "two". Two miles of new Wall.

Two:

Happy Birthday to the great Cindy Adams of the New York Post. Cindy is 90, but looks 39 to me. She is going strong!

That's not creepy at all.

Three:

States are safely coming back. Our Country is starting to OPEN FOR BUSINESS again. Special care is, and always will be, given to our beloved seniors (except me!). Their lives will be better than ever...WE LOVE YOU ALL!

This one's fairly standard, actually. Trump is still pushing for the country to open back up while deaths spiked yesterday, appropriately enough, to 45 thousand.

And four:

I have instructed the United States Navy to shoot down and destroy any and all Iranian gunboats if they harass our ships at sea.

Hey remember all those times I said Trump would start war with Iran to save his poll numbers?

I think some of y'all owe me an apology.

[Thekri]

Hey remember all those times I said Trump would start war with Iran to save his poll numbers?

I think some of y'all owe me an apology.

Nope, still isn't. The military decided several years ago that Twitter posts do not constitute orders (A defense Trump himself has used when he was unlawfully pressuring the navy to drop War Crimes cases). Meanwhile, I am 99.99% sure that Trump made no such direction to the military, if he sent anything at all it was his usual "Here is what I think, but do whatever you want" approach that he always uses with the military. Our military has essentially been controlling itself for four years, and yes, that is terrifying.

[Breccia]

Nope, still isn't. The military decided several years ago that Twitter posts do not constitute orders

Trump tweeted that he instructed the Navy. The tweet isn't the order. The tweets is bragging about the order.

[Thekri]

Trump tweeted that he instructed the Navy. The tweet isn't the order. The tweets is bragging about the order.

And I am saying he gave no such order. He might have given an order addressing the situation, but it certainly didn't say what the tweet says. The tweet has absolutely no details, and it can be ignored with no consequence. His order was probably the same.

In order to actually give a crewman the order to engage with lethal weapons, the Navy has to determine what constitutes "Harass" "Gunboat" and "Iranian". All three of those are rather nebulous terms when you are dealing with small, unmarked watercraft. Since it can reasonably be considered that at least 1 of those properties is indeterminable, the Navy will do nothing of the sort.

I rather suspect the White House sent no guidance at all, and the tweet is literally the only guidance on the issue that exists. This seems to be the pattern on basically everything he tweet-tells some part of the government to do. Everyone on the receiving end is just fundamentally confused, because they haven't seen anything in normal channels. In addition to being Chaotic and Evil, the Trump White House is also fundamentally incompetent at an administrative level, and the enormous amount of typical correspondence that would go out of any normal administration seems to just wind up on some toadies desk most of the time, and nobody is really aware of it because they don't have tracking mechanisms.

This is a perfect example where that is likely to happen. Some 25 year old shithead with a Pol Sci degree suggests to the President we should start shooting Iranian boats. The President thinks it sounds like a good idea, turns to a random staffer and tells them to do it. He then tweets about it before the staffer leaves the room. Meanwhile, the staffer continues his janitorial duties, and vaguely wonders if the president is even aware he is a janitor.

[Breccia]

And I am saying he gave no such order. He might have given an order addressing the situation, but it certainly didn't say what the tweet says. The tweet has absolutely no details, and it can be ignored with no consequence. His order was probably the same.

Can we all agree that there's no version of this story which makes Trump seem like a competent Commander in Chief?

[Acidbaron]

When in doubt blame the immigrant crowd?

Seems like the same song, all the time every issues this administration faces is apparently solved by raising borders and denying immigrants something.

What i also find interesting is that this is targetting immigrants wanting to stay permanently in the US if i understand this correctly, so does this administration want more illegal immigrants over time because they are going to outstay their work permit? But perhaps that type of long term thinking is far too clever and complex for this administration and simply shows that this administration does not know what direction it wants to sail in, i guess this is what it looks like if a liar starts to believe and acts on their own lies.

But it all seems very counter productive, it does seem to cater to industries that need immigrants because temporary ones are allowed in, you're good enough to do the work for us right now but you're too brown to stick around...

[Thekri]

Can we all agree that there's no version of this story which makes Trump seem like a competent Commander in Chief?

No argument there. My stance on Trump starting a war has always been that he is unlikely to start one on purpose, but he could easily start one by accident from generally being incompetent as fuck, and not having a good grasp on who you can taunt, and who you really shouldn't.

When he says shit like he is going to "Rain down fire and fury like you have never seen" on North Korea, he wasn't actually interested in doing it, he was just being a bombastic ass. Back then that was less clear then it is now, so it was a lot scarier. This tweet is just one more that will be completely ignored, nothing will come of it.

I am not defending it, it is a horrible, irresponsible, dangerous, and juvenile thing to say. But that is pretty much the routine for every Trump tweet. If it isn't horrible, irresponsible, dangerous and juvenile, it was probably Dan Scavino.

[Resurgo]

*sigh*
I'm sure noone saw this coming...

The Wisconsin Department of Health said Tuesday that 19 people who reported that they voted in or worked the April 7 election tested positive for coronavirus in the days following.