Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Omega10]

I saw that and he's full of shit. Also, "as many as" 100k is no longer likely. It will more likely be OVER 100k. At an average of 1k per day (and we are way above that average right now) we will be within a couple thousand of 100k by the end of May. Highly unlikely that this is over by then. The first wave, maybe.

According to the MSN virus tracker, over the last week we are closer to 2k a day:

4/26 (1 week ago): 55,383
5/3 (today): 68,276

7 day new deaths: 12,893

12,893 / 7 = 1,841 a day.

100,000 - 68,276 = 31,724
31,734 / 1,841 is about 18 days till 100k deaths at this rate.

This would be May 21.


From an anecdotal standpoint, I've talked with a few people in the SE US. Basically people did NOT go to mass on Easter. It seems like a very few high profile people held public services, and that's about it. And as much as things are "open for business" in Georgia, not many people are going out.

From a business standpoint, it means the opening up of things won't change much - kind of like how the *BIG NEWS* oil deals got crude oil up to the current price of almost $19 a barrel. So for the oil industry, basically the only question left is: how many billions of dollars of grants and loans will the US government spend and which companies will be propped up. Their losses could last quite a while. But with enough government money they could be kept afloat.

From a virus standpoint: growth of the virus throughout the south is steady but not spiking. I guess this is what compromise looks like. Not enough help to really help the business community much, and not enough safeguards to keep the virus in check. But at least there is SOME business activity, and at least there is a reduction in the virus growth.

Anecdotally: The pictures of the armed protesters in the Michigan state capital horrified people. They did more to increase support for gun restrictions than anything that is happened in a long time.

Anecdotally: People think that priests that hold public mass these days are morally equivalent to the priests that had sex with underage altar boys. They are definitely responsible for more deaths.

The main stream media paints a picture of America that is just plain false. It also is highly anti-America. There are stupid people everywhere. Must we give these people such a huge percentage of our media coverage?

[PhaelixWW]

I do think it's telling that Trump, who seems to time and time again hold Biden personally responsible for 17k deaths during the H1N1 pandemic (despite there being only 12.5k in the US), has now just attempted to handwave the "official" US project going from 60k to 90k under his "leadership", a jump of close to double the fake amount he has used against Biden.

[Draco-Onis]

I do think it's telling that Trump, who seems to time and time again hold Biden personally responsible for 17k deaths during the H1N1 pandemic (despite there being only 12.5k in the US), has now just attempted to handwave the "official" US project going from 60k to 90k under his "leadership", a jump of close to double the fake amount he has used against Biden.

He did tell us pretty early on "I don't take responsibility for anything".

[Felya]

He did tell us pretty early on "I don't take responsibility for anything".

Has any cartoonist done Trump dressed like a doctor, on a pile of dead bodies, with a “Mission accomplished” banner over his head?

I am on a Bush kick tonight... lol

[Breccia]

Has any cartoonist done Trump dressed like a doctor, on a pile of dead bodies, with a “Mission accomplished” banner over his head?

I mean...there's this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, of course this one, and my personal favorite this one, but not exactly what you asked for.

[Benggaul]

According to the MSN virus tracker, over the last week we are closer to 2k a day

I know. Contrary to the tone of my posts on this matter, I DO try to err on the optimistic side. You'll find posts in my history from a week or two ago saying that 100k will likely be the upper limit, for example. I'm also hopeful that over the course of the next two weeks we WILL see a decline in the number of deaths per day--at least to the point where we're not pinging over 2k for most of the week.

I think most people here are also aware that the fucking imbeciles we see on the news are the vocal--and sociopathic--minority. Squeaky wheel and all that. But it only takes a handful of people like that in this type of situation to cause a lot of problems. I don't for a moment feel they accurately represent America and I think I can speak for most of the people here when I say they don't think that either. They are, however, the root of a lot of the problems facing America, particularly with respect to this pandemic.

[Omega10]

I know. Contrary to the tone of my posts on this matter, I DO try to err on the optimistic side. You'll find posts in my history from a week or two ago saying that 100k will likely be the upper limit, for example. I'm also hopeful that over the course of the next two weeks we WILL see a decline in the number of deaths per day--at least to the point where we're not pinging over 2k for most of the week.

I try to be optimistic about things for the most part as well. On the other hand, the mainstream media's "Everything is fine, let's get back to work" lies are grating to me. Everything is NOT fine. Yes there is SOME improvement in SOME areas (Louisiana for example). On other hand there are areas where it is getting worse. And we are still averaging over 1800 deaths a day over the course of a week.

I think most people here are also aware that the fucking imbeciles we see on the news are the vocal--and sociopathic--minority. Squeaky wheel and all that. But it only takes a handful of people like that in this type of situation to cause a lot of problems. I don't for a moment feel they accurately represent America and I think I can speak for most of the people here when I say they don't think that either. They are, however, the root of a lot of the problems facing America, particularly with respect to this pandemic.

Thank you for this. The mainstream media constantly portraying them as heros and decent Americans is also grating to me. They are neither.

One of the takeaways from all of this is to remind myself that the mainstream media is so very dishonest. It's not just FOX, it's the whole lot of them. Saying that CNN is better - not as bad as - FOX is not much of an endorsement. I am working hard to not be swayed by what our mainstream media spews out.

[Breccia]

Apparently Trump sort of pushed Fauci under the bus in his Fox interview? Something to do with him supposedly not getting a warning until the end of January(lol) I believe is what I read.

I'm sure Fauci will set the record straight when he's testifying before the House.

Oh. Right. Trump blocked that.

Okay fine, he'll say something at the next coronavirus briefing. Um...has he been to the last two?

[Kheirn]

From a virus standpoint: growth of the virus throughout the south is steady but not spiking. I guess this is what compromise looks like. Not enough help to really help the business community much, and not enough safeguards to keep the virus in check. But at least there is SOME business activity, and at least there is a reduction in the virus growth.

This is basically what Sweden is and has been like since the outbreak started. While everything is "life as usual" at face value, real life is far fron usual. People do stay at home a lot more, the service industry has still taken a major toll and we're having high unemployment spikes and closed businesses. The upside is that growth has been stayed linear and the possibility of going out and being social/shopping has made it more bearable for the general populace, as well as easing the burden for some businesses and slowly working towards a herd immunity which will eventually be what's required for this to pass.

While the hive mind effect still isn't as strong as in e.g. Japan, it's still fairly strong and if the new socially acceptable norm is to be cautious and careful when around other people, a vast majority of us will follow it. Some to a lesser degree, but those are also the ones that will slowly cause the virus to ebb out.

It's a complex system that seems to work for us, and hopefully it will work out for you as well.

[Draco-Onis]

It's a complex system that seems to work for us, and hopefully it will work out for you as well.

Yikes sorry the only people who want to be Sweden is Sweden, we're not doing good but at least we're not Sweden. It's really scary watching a country use see no evil, speak no evil model for a virus.

[Omega10]

This is basically what Sweden is and has been like since the outbreak started. While everything is "life as usual" at face value, real life is far fron usual. People do stay at home a lot more, the service industry has still taken a major toll and we're having high unemployment spikes and closed businesses. The upside is that growth has been stayed linear and the possibility of going out and being social/shopping has made it more bearable for the general populace, as well as easing the burden for some businesses and slowly working towards a herd immunity which will eventually be what's required for this to pass.

While the hive mind effect still isn't as strong as in e.g. Japan, it's still fairly strong and if the new socially acceptable norm is to be cautious and careful when around other people, a vast majority of us will follow it. Some to a lesser degree, but those are also the ones that will slowly cause the virus to ebb out.

It's a complex system that seems to work for us, and hopefully it will work out for you as well.

We won't know for at least a month. Note that there is one HUGE difference between the US and Sweden. The US is MUCH larger than Sweden, so it might work in Sweden and not the US, or the other way around. We won't know for quite a while. For better or for worse, this is the plan we are following.

From my standpoint, we've chosen our path. We have decided. Now it's time to execute our plans to the best of our ability. The virus moves at its own clip. Looking back, it looks like Mardi Gras caused a HUGE spike, while Easter did not. So based on these data points, it seems like the Lesson of New Orleans has been learned. On the other hand, some of the beach shots show beaches that are QUITE crowded

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Yikes sorry the only people who want to be Sweden is Sweden, we're not doing good but at least we're not Sweden. It's really scary watching a country use see no evil, speak no evil model for a virus.

We are at least partially following that model.

[Dontrike]

This is basically what Sweden is and has been like since the outbreak started. While everything is "life as usual" at face value, real life is far fron usual. People do stay at home a lot more, the service industry has still taken a major toll and we're having high unemployment spikes and closed businesses. The upside is that growth has been stayed linear and the possibility of going out and being social/shopping has made it more bearable for the general populace, as well as easing the burden for some businesses and slowly working towards a herd immunity which will eventually be what's required for this to pass.

While the hive mind effect still isn't as strong as in e.g. Japan, it's still fairly strong and if the new socially acceptable norm is to be cautious and careful when around other people, a vast majority of us will follow it. Some to a lesser degree, but those are also the ones that will slowly cause the virus to ebb out.

It's a complex system that seems to work for us, and hopefully it will work out for you as well.

Issues being that we're still not sure if herd immunity is possible and the idea that a majority of any people will follow that as the new norm is just being naive.

[ati87]

This is basically what Sweden is and has been like since the outbreak started. While everything is "life as usual" at face value, real life is far fron usual. People do stay at home a lot more, the service industry has still taken a major toll and we're having high unemployment spikes and closed businesses. The upside is that growth has been stayed linear and the possibility of going out and being social/shopping has made it more bearable for the general populace, as well as easing the burden for some businesses and slowly working towards a herd immunity which will eventually be what's required for this to pass.

While the hive mind effect still isn't as strong as in e.g. Japan, it's still fairly strong and if the new socially acceptable norm is to be cautious and careful when around other people, a vast majority of us will follow it. Some to a lesser degree, but those are also the ones that will slowly cause the virus to ebb out.

It's a complex system that seems to work for us, and hopefully it will work out for you as well.

You do know that herd immunity means hundreds of thousands of people will die right if you don't have a vaccine. You infect everybody (90+%) in in this situation you hope for the best.
Swedens tactic can only works because it's a large country with a small population (10M) in other words it isn't that densely populated. You aren't getting sick because you aren't being in contact with thousands of people a day (directly and indirectly) which is why the Swedish numbers are relatively low but that also means you aren't building any kind of herd immunity.

[Draco-Onis]

We are at least partially following that model.

True but thankfully we have some competent governors in blue states with testing and sensible policies going on however limited.

[Trunksee]

We won't know for at least a month. Note that there is one HUGE difference between the US and Sweden. The US is MUCH larger than Sweden, so it might work in Sweden and not the US, or the other way around. We won't know for quite a while. For better or for worse, this is the plan we are following.

From my standpoint, we've chosen our path. We have decided. Now it's time to execute our plans to the best of our ability. The virus moves at its own clip. Looking back, it looks like Mardi Gras caused a HUGE spike, while Easter did not. So based on these data points, it seems like the Lesson of New Orleans has been learned. On the other hand, some of the beach shots show beaches that are QUITE crowded

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We are at least partially following that model.

I would love to see some research done on the spring break beach goers. Have not heard much about huge spikes from them being there. Maybe in open air spaces with high amounts of UV it doesnt transmit that well.

[Breccia]

Various news sources, including Axios, have pointed to the biggest obstacle to the next coronavirus relief bill.

McConnell has said that no such bill will exist, unless it includes provisions that protect businesses from lawsuits when their workers or customers get sick.

Pelosi objects to this, saying

Especially now, we have every reason to protect our workers and our patients in all of this. So we would not be inclined to be supporting any immunity from liability.

McConnell wants businesses open, even if they're not safe, and rather than see to it they become safe, simply says "you can't sue if it's not safe". I believe he, and the Party of Trump he's chosen to become, will defend this with "the cure is worse than the disease" and other deflections, but leave out the part that unsafe companies will make people sick and possibly die. Perhaps McConnell and Pelosi will find a middle ground, such as "a company that demonstrably takes steps to make itself safe, having done a certain amount of work to make itself safe, can't be sued when some dumbass customer breaks the rules". In particular, I don't like the implications for unemployment if McConnell's idea goes forth. Specifically, if a business that's not safe opens and tells its workers to return to the unsafe location, forcing the worker to choose between quitting and losing unemployment, or going to an unsafe location for work and risking their health and the health of their family.

[Trunksee]

Various news sources, including Axios, have pointed to the biggest obstacle to the next coronavirus relief bill.

McConnell has said that no such bill will exist, unless it includes provisions that protect businesses from lawsuits when their workers or customers get sick.

Pelosi objects to this, saying



McConnell wants businesses open, even if they're not safe, and rather than see to it they become safe, simply says "you can't sue if it's not safe". I believe he, and the Party of Trump he's chosen to become, will defend this with "the cure is worse than the disease" and other deflections, but leave out the part that unsafe companies will make people sick and possibly die. Perhaps McConnell and Pelosi will find a middle ground, such as "a company that demonstrably takes steps to make itself safe, having done a certain amount of work to make itself safe, can't be sued when some dumbass customer breaks the rules". In particular, I don't like the implications for unemployment if McConnell's idea goes forth. Specifically, if a business that's not safe opens and tells its workers to return to the unsafe location, forcing the worker to choose between quitting and losing unemployment, or going to an unsafe location for work and risking their health and the health of their family.

This is a tough one. We dont put these things in place for any other airborne infection. While there are protections for blood born pathogens. I see it opening a can of worms if you happen to get customer to customer infections. I dont see why pelosi is hung up on this. This being a protection will make it to the point that it is almost not profitable yo open as the risk of being sued will be to high due to asymptomatic carriers.


Edit: Also to add on OSHA already has Covid 19 standards that allow for the reporting and prosecution of violations. The protections are already in place for lawsuits of employees if OSHA standards are violated.

[Nellise]

I would love to see some research done on the spring break beach goers. Have not heard much about huge spikes from them being there. Maybe in open air spaces with high amounts of UV it doesnt transmit that well.

There was this: 44 Texas Students Have Coronavirus After Spring Break Trip

They went to Mexico rather than somewhere in the US, but same idea.

[Omega10]

I would love to see some research done on the spring break beach goers. Have not heard much about huge spikes from them being there. Maybe in open air spaces with high amounts of UV it doesnt transmit that well.

Tracking down where individual cases are coming from would require a level of tracking people and contacts that Americans just would not accept. And even if this was done, the software package that would be needed to decode all of this and make proper decisions on where individual cases came from would be a daunting undertaking, even in a situation that had much fewer political overtones. For example, your purpose in getting this information would be to say "See, it's not the beach goers!". For me it would be "See it's the beach goers!". Whoever was doing the project would most likely be just as opinionated one way or another, or have a big financial investment in getting one result or another, and their is a very high probability that the results of the project would be in sync with their desired results.

I agree 100% with your sentiment. Not just for beach goers, but for all the different ways it can spread. Apparently Doughterty County in Georgia became a hot spot due to one well attended funeral a while back. But for a state like Florida that has lots of causes of the virus, there will never be a way to know this kind of information.

Example question: how much under counting of deaths is happening in Florida due to recent changes in the way that they record virus deaths in Florida? This is a good question to ask someone if you want to know how much they support Trump. Trump supporters will say absolutely none, and Trump haters will say quite a few. The actual details will never be known, and from a political standpoint are mostly irrelevant.

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There was this: 44 Texas Students Have Coronavirus After Spring Break Trip

They went to Mexico rather than somewhere in the US, but same idea.

Well there are events now and again that will show some cause and effect. It is interesting to note that 44 Texas students sounds like almost all young people.

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There was this: 44 Texas Students Have Coronavirus After Spring Break Trip

They went to Mexico rather than somewhere in the US, but same idea.

Ick the article is worse than the headline. 44 students all on their 20s out of a total of 70. That is more than a 60% infection rate.

Two weeks ago, amid the coronavirus pandemic, about 70 students from the University of Texas at Austin partied in Mexico on spring break. The students, all in their 20s, flew on a chartered plane to Cabo San Lucas, and some returned on separate commercial flights to Texas.

Now, 44 of them have tested positive for the virus and are self-isolating. More students were monitored and tested on Wednesday, university officials said, after 28 initial positive tests.

[Breccia]

This being a protection will make it to the point that it is almost not profitable yo open as the risk of being sued will be to high due to asymptomatic carriers.

That sounds a lot like "it's not safe to open, but we're going to open anyhow" to me. In fact, I believe that's my entire point.

Also, if OSHA has already set the standard of when workers can sue because their workplace is unsafe...then, what's McConnell asking for?

Simply put, OSHA is not pulling their weight anyhow. OSHA is run by Trump, who published this road map to re-open businesses in which he says “Protect the health and safety of workers in critical industries” is a state responsibility.

State. Not federal. Not OSHA.

And while OSHA has received thousands of complaints, according to a FOIA release from April 16th, I doubt those numbers have gone down.

Name ten citations that were coronavirus-related.

How about five? Find five citations.

I'll settle for three.

Once receiving a complaint, OSHA has six months to investigate. I think any reasonable person would agree, even one month is probably not helpful when the incubation time is 5 to 12 days.

Now take all of that and add to it, McConnell is asking for even more protections. More than Trump's OSHA is already providing to employers, by not doing anything.

You do know why Pelosi is hung up on this. You just don't want to admit it.