Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Trunksee]

That sounds a lot like "it's not safe to open, but we're going to open anyhow" to me. In fact, I believe that's my entire point.

Also, if OSHA has already set the standard of when workers can sue because their workplace is unsafe...then, what's McConnell asking for?

Simply put, OSHA is not pulling their weight anyhow. OSHA is run by Trump, who published this road map to re-open businesses in which he says “Protect the health and safety of workers in critical industries” is a state responsibility.

State. Not federal. Not OSHA.

And while OSHA has received thousands of complaints, according to a FOIA release from April 16th, I doubt those numbers have gone down.

Name ten citations that were coronavirus-related.

How about five? Find five citations.

I'll settle for three.

Once receiving a complaint, OSHA has six months to investigate. I think any reasonable person would agree, even one month is probably not helpful when the incubation time is 5 to 12 days.

Now take all of that and add to it, McConnell is asking for even more protections. More than Trump's OSHA is already providing to employers, by not doing anything.

You do know why Pelosi is hung up on this. You just don't want to admit it.

Actually I am more than willing to admit it. She wants the economy to continue to tank as that is Trumps platform. If people return to work and they dont die at a huge clip then Trump looks good. If she were not afraid that things have a chance of actually doing well and Trump looking bad she would reopen.

We are in a highly charged political landscape right now. Even if it were deemed ok to open the longer they can draw this out and damage the economy the better for Biden. Because if and when we do open the country does well then Trump can literally run on the fact that democrats blocked the reopening. The democrats literally and i mean literally can not afford for Trump to reopen the country at the chance he is right that cure cant be worse than the disease.

[Felya]

Actually I am more than willing to admit it. She wants the economy to continue to tank as that is Trumps platform. If people return to work and they dont die at a huge clip then Trump looks good. If she were not afraid that things have a chance of actually doing well and Trump looking bad she would reopen.

How many dead Americans is a huge clip, in Trump’s quest to not let democrats beat his platform?

We are in a highly charged political landscape right now. Even if it were deemed ok to open the longer they can draw this out and damage the economy the better for Biden. Because if and when we do open the country does well then Trump can literally run on the fact that democrats blocked the reopening. The democrats literally and i mean literally can not afford for Trump to reopen the country at the chance he is right that cure cant be worse than the disease.

Why didn’t Trump act sooner, so democrats don’t have a chance to draw it out? Don’t all presidents receive a massive bump from these kind of events? Bush had 90% approval after 9/11, because these events are always unifying. Why do you thing democrats took such a risk, to assume that unlike every president, Trump would fuck it up?

What if instead of saying democrats are creating a hoax, Trump actually did something to help. What if instead of thinking it was a set up, Trump took it as advise?

But hey... good on Trump for beating democrats in handing out bail outs to corporations and blocked legal immigration. They thought they had him, but the most important thing is handled. Order more body bags!

[Thekri]

That sounds a lot like "it's not safe to open, but we're going to open anyhow" to me. In fact, I believe that's my entire point.

Also, if OSHA has already set the standard of when workers can sue because their workplace is unsafe...then, what's McConnell asking for?

Simply put, OSHA is not pulling their weight anyhow. OSHA is run by Trump, who published this road map to re-open businesses in which he says “Protect the health and safety of workers in critical industries” is a state responsibility.

State. Not federal. Not OSHA.

And while OSHA has received thousands of complaints, according to a FOIA release from April 16th, I doubt those numbers have gone down.

Name ten citations that were coronavirus-related.

How about five? Find five citations.

I'll settle for three.

Once receiving a complaint, OSHA has six months to investigate. I think any reasonable person would agree, even one month is probably not helpful when the incubation time is 5 to 12 days.

Now take all of that and add to it, McConnell is asking for even more protections. More than Trump's OSHA is already providing to employers, by not doing anything.

You do know why Pelosi is hung up on this. You just don't want to admit it.

Ok, this needs some context for what OSHA is, and what it can do.

First, guess how many employees OSHA has? I will save you the googling, it is 2,100. That isn't 2100 inspectors, that is 2100 total employees. The number of inspectors is now below 1000 OSHA has had about 1000 inspectors since 1972, and it has never grown. Under Trump, that number is crashing hard. The most recent count I could find was this one, which puts the number at 875 on 1 JAN 2019, and I guarantee it hasn't gone up since then. It is probably down even more now.

So what this means is that OSHA is completely incapable of doing anything about thousands of complaints. It isn't that they are bad people, it is because they are so incredibly undermanned, they leave EVERYTHING up to the employers. I work at a massive industrial plant, and the only time we have ever seen an OSHA inspector is after a fatal accident. Because South Carolina has a total of 2 inspectors, and they obviously prioritize places that are really bad. They are supposed to inspect us every 2 years, we are now 6 years overdue.

So giving OSHA six months to investigate is actually pretty hilarious. You could give then 6 years to investigate, and it wouldn't happen. They can't possibly investigate every complaint that comes in, because a dozen come in during the time they are investigating one. This isn't an exclusively Trump problem either. OSHA has been systemically gutted ever since Nixon created it. Because it is a threat to both employers and paradoxically, unions.

OSHAs contributions to modern American business is writing guidelines, not inspecting. All enforcement is done by state, local, and private inspectors. It is a fundamentally broken system that could not be relied on before Coronavirus, and is woefully incapable of surging at times like this.

[Dontrike]

Actually I am more than willing to admit it. She wants the economy to continue to tank as that is Trumps platform. If people return to work and they dont die at a huge clip then Trump looks good. If she were not afraid that things have a chance of actually doing well and Trump looking bad she would reopen.

We are in a highly charged political landscape right now. Even if it were deemed ok to open the longer they can draw this out and damage the economy the better for Biden. Because if and when we do open the country does well then Trump can literally run on the fact that democrats blocked the reopening. The democrats literally and i mean literally can not afford for Trump to reopen the country at the chance he is right that cure cant be worse than the disease.

Isn't it funny how many conspiracy theories can be created in just two paragraphs? I thought the Democrats were "do nothing" and yet are able to destroy Trump's economy with such ease.

It's always someone else's fault and never Trump's.

[Breccia]

Actually I am more than willing to admit it. She wants the economy to continue to tank as that is Trumps platform. If people return to work and they dont die at a huge clip then Trump looks good.

Why, that sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. It also sounds like you're justifying lives lost with dollars saved. Neither of these are redeeming qualities and both are reasons for me to end this conversation, confident that I've won.

On topic: CBS News reports that the farm bailout money--

"Which time?"

Oh, the most recent one, the coronavirus relief money. Anyhow CBS interviewed farmers from both Dakotas, asking about the previous bailout money, and got the expected results. Specifically, that large farm corporations were legally cooking the books to ensure they got enormous payouts, even if that meant people who had never even visited the farm were getting cash. The implication is, the current bailout will be the same. And by "implication" I mean "They interviewed Sonny Purdue and he said it would be the same, on camera, on purpose".

It's also worth noting that a town in Oklahoma has reversed its face mask requirement specifically due to threats of violence from the rabid fanbase. That's literal terrorism.

[Felya]

Isn't it funny how many conspiracy theories can be created in just two paragraphs? I thought the Democrats were "do nothing" and yet are able to destroy Trump's economy with such ease.

It's always someone else's fault and never Trump's.

If democrats were not trying to set up Trump, they would use reverse psychology. Every kid knows that... If democrats in January came out saying how much Obama hated pandemic response and how Trump should ignore it, we would be great again in pandemic response. The question everyone should be asking... why didn’t democrats use reverse psychology?

Neither of these are redeeming qualities and both are reasons for me to end this conversation, confident that I've won.

Yeah, this seeped down to my level... I got it.

[Breccia]

So what this means is that OSHA is completely incapable of doing anything about thousands of complaints

That sounds like "The protections are already in place for lawsuits of employees if OSHA standards are violated" is a complete lie, then.

[Poopymonster]

That sounds like "The protections are already in place for lawsuits of employees if OSHA standards are violated" is a complete lie, then.

You can't sue for breaking standards if they never check to see if those standards are being violated.

[Breccia]

You can't sue for breaking standards if they never check to see if those standards are being violated.

I'm sure @Thekri is right about OSHA employees, but saying "This overwhelmed group can handle it" is a lot like saying "the gnomes can fight the Horde all on their own".

The Horde eats gnomes.

[Lenonis]

I would love to see some research done on the spring break beach goers. Have not heard much about huge spikes from them being there. Maybe in open air spaces with high amounts of UV it doesnt transmit that well.

So....is this whole openly pontificating about scientific matters you could verify if you actually wanted an intentional mimic of Trump or is it just coincidental that Trump supporters have adopted this tone?

Because it's super weird.

[Paranoid Android]

The President says the Spanish Flu of 1917 probably ended World War I https://t.co/iSgDSHrzlS

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1257...905618944?s=19

I just can't. Spanish Flu was 1918 and while we can speak on multiple reasons WWI ended, the Spanish Flu was not even in consideration.

Another time this idiot thinks he knows what he is talking about or he is just saying bull bleep as usual since he does not understand history.

[Lenonis]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1257...905618944?s=19

I just can't. Spanish Flu was 1918 and while we can speak on multiple reasons WWI ended, the Spanish Flu was not even in consideration.

Another time this idiot thinks he knows what he is talking about or he is just saying bull bleep as usual since he does not understand history.

I'm not going to watch a clip of Trump being a moron so maybe there is context I'm missing but what on earth is the point of making a statement like this? Is he trying to start some sort of "No really guys Covid is a good thing" narrative?

[Thepersona]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1257...905618944?s=19

I just can't. Spanish Flu was 1918 and while we can speak on multiple reasons WWI ended, the Spanish Flu was not even in consideration.

Another time this idiot thinks he knows what he is talking about or he is just saying bull bleep as usual since he does not understand history.

Kansas flu (using the name that it deserves, since the deplorables keep on insisting that the china flu is a thing) was more of a coup de grace, as the introduction of the tank really was (one) of the culprits of the end.

[zorkuus]

I'm not going to watch a clip of Trump being a moron so maybe there is context I'm missing but what on earth is the point of making a statement like this? Is he trying to start some sort of "No really guys Covid is a good thing" narrative?

I don't think tRump knows either what point he's trying to make. He's just a narcissistic moron who CAN'T. STOP. TALKING.

[Gelannerai]

Isn't it funny how many conspiracy theories can be created in just two paragraphs? I thought the Democrats were "do nothing" and yet are able to destroy Trump's economy with such ease.

It's always someone else's fault and never Trump's.

Taken straight out of the ur-fascist playbook.

Umberto Eco: Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.

[Paranoid Android]

.Pence says he "should have worn a mask at the Mayo Clinic" during visit https://t.co/z4WAZISPs0 https://t.co/bBS8VUDUId

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1...074804738?s=19

Alright I started this story about a week or so ago and I can say we finally have an ending..

So from saying he didn't need a mask since he gets tested regularly to his wife claiming the Mayo Clinic did not ask Pence and finally anger and threatening the person who took the photo and posted it.

Now after the stages of denial, blaming others I believe we are at the end of acceptance.

[Lenonis]

Now after the stages of denial, blaming others I believe we are at the end of acceptance.

One consistent factor in this administration is the ability to make everything worse for them than they needed to. All Pence needed to do was come out and say:
"I didn't wear a mask because I get testing regularly and was negative. I realize now that was the wrong decision and i should have worn a mask to be a good example to everyone. If you take anything away from this please let it be that you should follow medical guidelines and wear a mask to protect yourself an others."

Done. End of news cycle, end of story, and Pence ends up looking fairly decent out of it.

Instead....we get a week of various news cycles that make Pence look a mix of evil and incompetent.

[Trunksee]

Ok so then what is a reasonable death rate and hospitalization rate to shut a country down? Where do we draw the line? Is it different for a rural area or is it the same as a big metropolis? Who decides these numbers? Is 1% death rate ok but a 2% is to much? Or how about .05%? How about we shut down for the flu next year? Where is the cut off line that we tell healthy people, or the majority, that ots ok for most people to go out but lets just weld the doors of the elderly and the immune comprimised doors shut so the majority can continue to live?

[Edge-]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN22G1SX

Cool, so I guess we're getting an EO on medical supply chains.

No, he's not putting the DPA into affect like he did with meat, the lack of PPE doesn't threaten his ability to eat quarter pounders with cheese.

This one is to require the US government buys US made supplies.

That's it. That's the whole story. I'm gonna go back to pretending we have a competent president who at least pretends like he gives a shit about the citizens he is supposed to be leading.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok so then what is a reasonable death rate and hospitalization rate to shut a country down? Where do we draw the line? Is it different for a rural area or is it the same as a big metropolis? Who decides these numbers? Is 1% death rate ok but a 2% is to much? Or how about .05%? How about we shut down for the flu next year? Where is the cut off line that we tell healthy people, or the majority, that ots ok for most people to go out but lets just weld the doors of the elderly and the immune comprimised doors shut so the majority can continue to live?

It's almost as if there are all kinds of people called "experts", people like doctors who can tell us all kinds of information about a virus and its possible impacts. People like economists, who can model impacts based on what the virus does and the various spread models that doctors will create. And then these can be looked at to see if measures are needed to be taken, especially if there is a higher mortality rate. And that this will always be an incredibly complex, dynamic, challenging decision with no easy, universal answer.

Life isn't easy, dude. You can't Google the answer to everything.

[Felya]

Ok so then what is a reasonable death rate and hospitalization rate to shut a country down?

There isn’t one, it’s predicted on hospital and supply capacity.

Where do we draw the line?

Hospital capacity to handle new cases.

Is it different for a rural area or is it the same as a big metropolis?

Yes, because in 2019, a lot of rural hospitals got disbanded. There is currently a shortage, meaning that even a small outbreak, would absolutely ravage them.

Who decides these numbers?

Hospitals...

Is 1% death rate ok but a 2% is to much? Or how about .05%?

Even 1 is too much, but the issue is hospital capacity to handle each patient, to give them the best chance of surviving.

How about we shut down for the flu next year?

Do you have reason to believe the flu vaccine for 2020, will be ineffective?

Where is the cut off line that we tell healthy people, or the majority, that ots ok for most people to go out but lets just weld the doors of the elderly and the immune comprimised doors shut so the majority can continue to live?

When there are hospital beds, to cover the currently healthy people, getting sick.