Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Felya]

Ok so then what is a reasonable death rate and hospitalization rate to shut a country down?

There isn’t one, it’s predicted on hospital and supply capacity.

Where do we draw the line?

Hospital capacity to handle new cases.

Is it different for a rural area or is it the same as a big metropolis?

Yes, because in 2019, a lot of rural hospitals got disbanded. There is currently a shortage, meaning that even a small outbreak, would absolutely ravage them.

Who decides these numbers?

Hospitals...

Is 1% death rate ok but a 2% is to much? Or how about .05%?

Even 1 is too much, but the issue is hospital capacity to handle each patient, to give them the best chance of surviving.

How about we shut down for the flu next year?

Do you have reason to believe the flu vaccine for 2020, will be ineffective?

Where is the cut off line that we tell healthy people, or the majority, that ots ok for most people to go out but lets just weld the doors of the elderly and the immune comprimised doors shut so the majority can continue to live?

When there are hospital beds, to cover the currently healthy people, getting sick.

[Trunksee]

There isn’t one, it’s predicted on hospital and supply capacity.



Hospital capacity to handle new cases.



Yes, because in 2019, a lot of rural hospitals got disbanded. There is currently a shortage, meaning that even a small outbreak, would absolutely ravage them.



Hospitals...



Even 1 is too much, but the issue is hospital capacity to handle each patient, to give them the best chance of surviving.



Do you have reason to believe the flu vaccine for 2020, will be ineffective?



When there are hospital beds, to cover the currently healthy people, getting sick.

So your going with the hospital excuse. So why are we removing the temporary hospitals from most places? If the only need to open things up is hospitals why are we removing the temporary ones? Why not leave them open and open up more?

[Thekri]

You can't sue for breaking standards if they never check to see if those standards are being violated.

Actually you totally can, which is why OSHA is not actually as toothless as it seems, despite the low number of inspectors. OSHA is incapable of driving compliance through inspections (For the most part, each of those 875 Inspectors does it where they can), but its standards are legally binding anyway. So if I can prove my workplace did violate OSHA standards, then I can totally sue them, and they will have to pay up.

Of course that does mean the burden of proof is on me to prove they did, and some instances of that are more simple then others. A court does not require an OSHA inspector to confirm if the standard is violated or not. If OSHA requires handrails on an elevated platform, and I fall off it when there clearly was no handrails on it, then the Court holds the company liable for that. In fact, I don't actually have to fall off, I can sue the company for asking me to work on a platform with no handrails.

I know all this because I am the manager that is responsible for doing stuff like installing handrails, and I have to learn all this so my workers don't sue the company. Of course I am not a psychopath, so my primary motivation is actually to keep them safe, but lawsuits are a factor too, since there are a disturbing number of workers looking for workplace injuries they can cash in on. (It is less then 1%, but that is an alarmingly high number if you have a few hundred workers)

[Felya]

So your going with the hospital excuse.

Excuse? I’m sorry... I’m not the one blaming democrats conspiring to warn Trump early.

So why are we removing the temporary hospitals from most places?

Because they are temporary... wtf?

If the only need to open things up is hospitals why are we removing the temporary ones?

Still... because they are temporary... I don’t understand why ask the same ludicrous question twice? Hospitals are over capacity, beyond even their own limits. Them closing temporary ones, means that the quarantine is working. It means we are getting closer to hospitals no longer being over capacity. It’s compounding how dumb it is to reopen, when we are making progress.

Why not leave them open and open up more?

Because they are temporary and there isn’t an infinite number of nurses and doctors. Your argument is to literally expand to handle more sick? WTf?

[Lenonis]

Who decides these numbers?

Medical experts.

[alexw]

Actually I am more than willing to admit it. She wants the economy to continue to tank as that is Trumps platform. If people return to work and they dont die at a huge clip then Trump looks good. If she were not afraid that things have a chance of actually doing well and Trump looking bad she would reopen.

We are in a highly charged political landscape right now. Even if it were deemed ok to open the longer they can draw this out and damage the economy the better for Biden. Because if and when we do open the country does well then Trump can literally run on the fact that democrats blocked the reopening. The democrats literally and i mean literally can not afford for Trump to reopen the country at the chance he is right that cure cant be worse than the disease.

You are an utter lunatic.

The reason she wants the lockdown to remain in place is because the disease is still out there, its still spreading, and thanks to the total imcompetence of Trump has not in any way been brought under control.

So as is obvious to anyone with a functioning brain as the lockdown is lifted as is currently happening in some states, the disease caseload will explode and the death toll with it. In fact the CDC is predicting that by the end of the month there will be around 200,000 new cases per day up from the current 30,000 or so per day.. Given that's around 7x times the current number three weeks later the daily death toll is also going to be up by 7x from what we see now. So its not going to around 2K people dying per day, its going to be around 14K per day.

Do you get it now? This isn't about damaging Trump. Trump is doing that plenty enough by himself, due to his incompetence and complete inability to do the job of president in anything close to a competent way. In fact going by those CDC numbers Trump is about to politically destroy himself as this disease goes meta, and it becomes a true pandemic infecting tens of millions.

This is about trying to limit the damage that Trump via sheer stupidity and incompetence is doing. If you think that's a problem blame Trump for it not the one trying to reduce the number of people he's going to kill.

[Thepersona]

Trump Administration Models Predict Near Doubling of Daily Death Toll by June

Coronavirus updates are free, btw, so no paywall to read the rest.

So there you go, the first wave will couple up with the second wave. I hope we're out of this by september-october

[alexw]

So there you go, the first wave will couple up with the second wave. I hope we're out of this by september-october

That's not a second wave. A second wave would require the first to be over and the disease to be reduced back down to minimal levels from which it regrows. This is the Trump admin being an abject failure and a shitshow of incompetence, so it ends up giving up because it's incapable of doing the job its been hired to do.

[Xyonai]

What really fucks me up about this? If Trump actually bothered to do anything more than almost nothing back when he was warned about this in January he could've taken 2020 in a landslide. Instead he saw the short term hit to his popularity and his economy and tried sweeping it under the rug, and then went to politicize it when it became too big to ignore and refuses to wield his executive powers to help PPE distribution and manufacturing; instead using it to steal medical supplies and force meat packing plants to reopen without guaranteeing worker or product safety.

It's absolutely fucking frustrating that this entire situation's been made so much worse because of a single person's lack of foresight, unwillingness to read, and inability to take responsibility. And the lunatics in his base are going with some insane idea that the whole world is conspiring against a single man rather then just admit 'hey, maybe he could've done a better job' and have collectively decided that 'What's 100k people dead if I can't get a Hamberder?'

[Benggaul]

It's absolutely fucking frustrating that this entire situation's been made so much worse because of a single person's lack of foresight, unwillingness to read, and inability to take responsibility. And the lunatics in his base are going with some insane idea that the whole world is conspiring against a single man rather then just admit 'hey, maybe he could've done a better job' and have collectively decided that 'What's 100k people dead if I can't get a Hamberder?'

I'm not defending Trump, but it's not just him who's responsible. There are PLENTY of people in his shitty administration whose job it is to ensure that response and recovery goes smoothly and they all fucked up at just about every stage. I guess that's what happens when you throw out the experts and employ lobbyists and billionaires with no experience.

[cubby]

What really fucks me up about this? If Trump actually bothered to do anything more than almost nothing back when he was warned about this in January he could've taken 2020 in a landslide. Instead he saw the short term hit to his popularity and his economy and tried sweeping it under the rug, and then went to politicize it when it became too big to ignore and refuses to wield his executive powers to help PPE distribution and manufacturing; instead using it to steal medical supplies and force meat packing plants to reopen without guaranteeing worker or product safety. And rather then try and unite the country, he's been getting into spats with states who doesn't

It's absolutely fucking frustrating that this entire situation's been made so much worse because of a single person's lack of foresight, unwillingness to read, and inability to take responsibility. And the lunatics in his base are going with some insane idea that the whole world is conspiring against a single man rather then just admit 'hey, maybe he could've done a better job' and have collectively decided that 'What's 100k people dead if I can't get a Hamberder?'

It is really amazing that something akin to what you suggest above didn't happen. Trump would have definitely be soaring in the polls had he literally shut up and said, we have a crisis, let's have the experts handle it. But Trump has always been his own worst enemy. And we're seeing it here again. This time it might actually destroy the country.

I'm sincerely concerned about the Nov elections being canceled/postponed.

[PhaelixWW]

Ok so then what is a reasonable death rate and hospitalization rate to shut a country down? Where do we draw the line? Is it different for a rural area or is it the same as a big metropolis? Who decides these numbers? Is 1% death rate ok but a 2% is to much? Or how about .05%? How about we shut down for the flu next year? Where is the cut off line that we tell healthy people, or the majority, that ots ok for most people to go out but lets just weld the doors of the elderly and the immune comprimised doors shut so the majority can continue to live?

Stupid arguments are stupid.

A 1% death rate means 2.6 million Americans dead. The flu is 50k. The only thing that's been keeping the deathtoll from being much higher so far are the lockdowns.

The flu also has a much lower reproductive rate, and have a vaccine. It would never take a lockdown to lower the reproductive rate of the flu below 1.

[Captain N]

It is really amazing that something akin to what you suggest above didn't happen. Trump would have definitely be soaring in the polls had he literally shut up and said, we have a crisis, let's have the experts handle it. But Trump has always been his own worst enemy. And we're seeing it here again. This time it might actually destroy the country.

I'm sincerely concerned about the Nov elections being canceled/postponed.

I think this is why Trump decided to sling shit at Dubya when he said that we need to stop dividing ourselves in the wake of this pandemic. Despite what any of us thought of him later at the point of 9/11 he managed to rile up all Americans to fight back against those who decided to kill innocent lives. Trump couldn't even get a small bump that lasted for longer than a couple weeks after attempting to do the right thing after weeks of dismissing and blundering through. He's a petty little man who can't stand having someone else able to do something better than he does....which at this point seems to be pretty much anyone.

[Edge-]

The flu is 50k.

And that's the high end estimate for a full year, which is worth stressing at every opportunity. Flu deaths are difficult to track, but they usually net out between 10-20K per year after the data is looked at, but it's not great data so it's difficult to get super certain results.

We're already 6x the deaths of the flu, in 4 months, with months of social distancing and shelter in-place that doesn't occur with the flu.

I've stopped treating anyone comparing anything about this to the flu as reasonable/serious.

[cubby]

I think this is why Trump decided to sling shit at Dubya when he said that we need to stop dividing ourselves in the wake of this pandemic. Despite what any of us thought of him later at the point of 9/11 he managed to rile up all Americans to fight back against those who decided to kill innocent lives. Trump couldn't even get a small bump that lasted for longer than a couple weeks after attempting to do the right thing after weeks of dismissing and blundering through. He's a petty little man who can't stand having someone else able to do something better than he does....which at this point seems to be pretty much anyone.

Agreed. I was never a fan of George, but in a crisis, he could lead - or at least listen to those that helped him lead, if that makes sense. Trump should be soaring in the polls right now, and it would have been so easy - instead he's wallowing right back where he was and lying on a daily basis about simple facts and pushing conspiracy theories.

I am VERY glad that Trump wasn't in charge for 9/11. I shudder at just the thought of what he would have done to this country after that attack.

[Lenonis]

I'm sincerely concerned about the Nov elections being canceled/postponed.

I don't think that's going to be possible. Not only because the elections aren't run by the federal government, but also because it's not likely COVID is going to be going on at rates that would even justify it.

Do I think the Trump administration will try to do something shifty with the elections? Absolutely.

But cancelling them? I don't think so. They might try to postpone them but I imagine the courts would slap that down as unconstitutional like what happened in Wisconsin.

Also -- something to think about -- it's actually to Trump's advantage to hold the elections during a terrible spike in the pandemic. Why? Lower turnout favors Republicans, especially since Democratic leaning cities are likely to be what's suffering the most.

- - - Updated - - -

I've stopped treating anyone comparing anything about this to the flu as reasonable/serious.

I saw a comment on twitter (yes yes yes I know) where someone said "it's just like a bad cold" and my brain melted.

[Xyonai]

I'm not defending Trump, but it's not just him who's responsible. There are PLENTY of people in his shitty administration whose job it is to ensure that response and recovery goes smoothly and they all fucked up at just about every stage. I guess that's what happens when you throw out the experts and employ lobbyists and billionaires with no experience.

Or you put your smarmy know-nothing son-in-law in charge of your pandemic responses. But, yeah, I get ya.

[Edge-]

I'm not defending Trump, but it's not just him who's responsible. There are PLENTY of people in his shitty administration whose job it is to ensure that response and recovery goes smoothly and they all fucked up at just about every stage. I guess that's what happens when you throw out the experts and employ lobbyists and billionaires with no experience.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...87965302091776

Leadership: Whatever happens, you're responsible. If it doesn't happen, you're responsible.

Donald Trump on who is responsible.

It is him who is responsible. This is his administration. These are his political appointees (and son-in-law). A great many of them are acting officials because he hasn't bothered to nominate people for Senate confirmation.

Literally, it all goes back to him. His failure of leadership has a butterfly effect, dude.

[Benggaul]

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...87965302091776



Donald Trump on who is responsible.

It is him who is responsible. This is his administration. These are his political appointees (and son-in-law). A great many of them are acting officials because he hasn't bothered to nominate people for Senate confirmation.

Literally, it all goes back to him. His failure of leadership has a butterfly effect, dude.

You seem to be implying that I'm exonerating him of responsibility. I'm absolutely not. He's responsible. He's just not the only one responsible and we all need to remember that when it's time to take out the fucking garbage. All roads may lead to him, but there are several people who are supposed to handle shit on their own who also fucked up. From his cabinet down to local government.

[Rasulis]

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...87965302091776



Donald Trump on who is responsible.

It is him who is responsible. This is his administration. These are his political appointees (and son-in-law). A great many of them are acting officials because he hasn't bothered to nominate people for Senate confirmation.

Literally, it all goes back to him. His failure of leadership has a butterfly effect, dude.

While Truman was remembered for "The bucks stop here", Trump will be remembered for "I don't take responsibility at all." Pretty crappy campaign slogan. No wonder the GOP is worried about November election.